Does anyone see a problem here?

[dadof10]

I have never heard of this bible- but it certainly is not Jewish!

The quote from Isaiah 28:8 from the Hebrew is "For all the tables were filled with vomit and filthiness, without (a) place." Where do you see the words "and Jesus is Lord of all" in this verse? Why do Christians persist in mistranslating and perverting the real meaning of the Hebrew Bible to justify their beliefs? :crazy

That's the same confusion I was feeling after reading Sparrowhawke's post.

Perhaps your question(s) may be better addressed to the publisher than to me?

My part was a simple cut-n-paste, used by permission.

Scripture quotations were taken (by permission) from the Complete Jewish Bible, copyright© 1998 by David H. Stern. The Complete Jewish Bible is published by Jewish New Testament Publications, Inc. http://www.messianicjewish.net/jntp, Distributed by Messianic Jewish Resources. http://www.messianicjewish.net. All rights reserved.

Could you please give us the chapter and verse of the above quotations? Thanks.

 

[dadof10]

Many men have been taught by other men to string scriptures together. While being taught they are pointed to the Scripture, "Line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little," but with the Complete Jewish translation my eyes were open to another possibility. (( that is not to say that I have any great love for one translation over another - but only to say that it was useful to me in this manner ))

While we are young and in need of milk - this [*the 'stringing' of Scriptures together] is a very good thing. We can find out much in the word from looking at a concordance (written by men) and following "chain reference" bibles. They string scriptures together according to concept but result in a "canned" presentation when trying to seek the "meat of the word".

In other words, God desires and will actually write His word (logos) upon our hearts. As we act upon what is written (the logos in our hearts) our hearts become circumcised (so-to-speak). We need only allow Him to perform this work in us and part of that is by looking to Him and not to man. As we allow this and continue in it, we become "epistles written of God and read of men," and will see less and less of certain "conflicts" in the word. It is then that we can say with confidence, "No, I don't really see any problem here."

Better?

~Sparrow

A little. Are you saying that when we are new Christians ("young and in need of milk") we should read Scripture in a certain way (using "concordance (written by men) and following "chain reference" bibles), but once we have matured, God will write His Word upon our hearts so we won't need concordances and such, because He will speak to us more directly?

Am i understanding you correctly? Do you think mature Christians even NEED to read Scripture? It's still a little vague.

 

[Sparkey]

those are fairly in-depth questions about my mind on the matter. Thank you and I'll PM you with a response.

~Sparrow

 

[Benoni]

Many men have been taught by other men to string scriptures together. While being taught they are pointed to the Scripture, "Line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little," but with the Complete Jewish translation my eyes were open to another possibility. (( that is not to say that I have any great love for one translation over another - but only to say that it was useful to me in this manner ))

While we are young and in need of milk - this [*the 'stringing' of Scriptures together] is a very good thing. We can find out much in the word from looking at a concordance (written by men) and following "chain reference" bibles. They string scriptures together according to concept but result in a "canned" presentation when trying to seek the "meat of the word".

In other words, God desires and will actually write His word (logos) upon our hearts. As we act upon what is written (the logos in our hearts) our hearts become circumcised (so-to-speak). We need only allow Him to perform this work in us and part of that is by looking to Him and not to man. As we allow this and continue in it, we become "epistles written of God and read of men," and will see less and less of certain "conflicts" in the word. It is then that we can say with confidence, "No, I don't really see any problem here."

Better?

~Sparrow

A little. Are you saying that when we are new Christians ("young and in need of milk") we should read Scripture in a certain way (using "concordance (written by men) and following "chain reference" bibles), but once we have matured, God will write His Word upon our hearts so we won't need concordances and such, because He will speak to us more directly?

Am i understanding you correctly? Do you think mature Christians even NEED to read Scripture? It's still a little vague.

This is true. Men follow religion and reject God's anointing, (anti Christ/Anti anointing means the same thing), for this reason men grow religiously not spiritually. A spiritual man hears God's Spirit/Word. A religous man hears only his religious man made box. All things/beliefs must be understood or controlled in that religious man made box. Jeremiah called it a broken cistern.

I cannot and will not fit God’s Word in a man made box; it is like a river that flows and gets deeper and deeper; in fact so deep at times you cannot no longer stand; that is where faith comes in.

Jeremiah 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

I look around at the vast majority of God’s awesome people who remind me more of Lawyers defending the law according to the way they have been taught no matter how evil the law is. There is no room in their religious brain to dig deeper, or explore the most awesome book ever written; words like “new†scare them.

Broken Cisterns is all they have; Jeremiah had it totally right. To look beyond those man made principles is so contrary to established creeds and doctrine; they are just like the Catholic Church in the Dark Ages. Luther was a man who was called of God; Luther was not perfect; but Luther did something most Christians refuse to do; hear God and walk with the principles God had given Him. Lutherans today hear Luther and walk with the principle Luther taught them, and do not comprehend God’s Spirit has moved beyond Luther and his dead creed and dogmas. The Bible is not a law Book; but a living moving book that goes beyond the principles man made established icons.

I still use Bible reference material mostly to prove my point to non-spiritual believers.

 

[Sparkey]

Benoni, I liked your analogy of a river. It reminds me of what I was taught as I sat at the feet of a Master.

The words that were penned in our bible were directed and inspired by the Holy Spirit. The image that is given (I can't find the quote right now - it escapes my feeble mind at the moment) convey the thought that as a log on a river does not determine its course, so also were the men who wrote under the unction of the Holy Spirit.

What I am being taught is that the letter of the word, the letter of the law (especially when men draw out their swords of truth to hack each other to bits with it) killeth. It is the Spirit (Our Comforter) who anoints us to actually hear the word. The more trite way to say is, "pray not prey".

~Sparrow

PS, does your name refer to a Chess game maybe?

 

[Benoni]

I knew when you responded to my first post you had ears to hear.

Yes my name is very much part of this deep and awesome chest game.

When we take God’s Word and bring it down to man’s level it becomes “the letter that killethâ€Â. What so many do not understand is God’s Word is a progressive Word and it is spiritual. 2 Peter 1:12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.

Present truth; in other words as the truth is revealed you move with it.


The reason there are many denominations is spiritual growth and being opened for truth; as well as spiritual immaturity and closing their spiritual understanding. A choice between hearing God; or hearing man and his tradition. Men of God like Luther and his followers had a revelation and walked in it; but instead of being opened for more they they just follow Luther.


Luke 8:10
And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

If the Bible teaches us anything we need to hear God. God’s Words is living and growing and God is pouring out His Spirit in the last days.

I love the word mystery; this word is used 27 times in the NT and means sacred secret. You see God hides his deep truth right in front of our eyes, so if you can read it and understand it with your brain it is probably the letter that killeth. But when you read the very same word of God, and God’s spirit reveals something NEW and deep it to your spirit, that is spiritual.

Benoni, I liked your analogy of a river. It reminds me of what I was taught as I sat at the feet of a Master.

The words that were penned in our bible were directed and inspired by the Holy Spirit. The image that is given (I can't find the quote right now - it escapes my feeble mind at the moment) convey the thought that as a log on a river does not determine its course, so also were the men who wrote under the unction of the Holy Spirit.

What I am being taught is that the letter of the word, the letter of the law (especially when men draw out their swords of truth to hack each other to bits with it) killeth. It is the Spirit (Our Comforter) who anoints us to actually hear the word. The more trite way to say is, "pray not prey".

~Sparrow

PS, does your name refer to a Chess game maybe?

 

[Sparkey]

Interesting things you are saying unto me there Mr. Benoni.

Yes there are mysteries and yes there are revelations. There are also things that are not revealed but purposefully done in darkness and fully hidden. I like Deuteronomy 29 (the full chapter) and the concluding words, "The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law."

I don't like any who teach or attempt to teach according to the doctrines of Balaam and Balak. I would expect full agreement on this from all who have declared themselves "of Christ". So now we have seen the end from the beginning. I am still sitting and hope to remain seated while I listen.

~Sparrowhawke

 

[turnorburn]

I have never heard of this bible- but it certainly is not Jewish!

The quote from Isaiah 28:8 from the Hebrew is "For all the tables were filled with vomit and filthiness, without (a) place." Where do you see the words "and Jesus is Lord of all" in this verse? Why do Christians persist in mistranslating and perverting the real meaning of the Hebrew Bible to justify their beliefs? :crazy

Perhaps your question(s) may be better addressed to the publisher than to me?

My part was a simple cut-n-paste, used by permission.

Scripture quotations were taken (by permission) from the Complete Jewish Bible, copyright© 1998 by David H. Stern. The Complete Jewish Bible is published by Jewish New Testament Publications, Inc. http://www.messianicjewish.net/jntp, Distributed by Messianic Jewish Resources. http://www.messianicjewish.net. All rights reserved.

~Sparrowhawke

If its on the net is public domain Sparrowhawke.. :yes

http://www.onlinebible.org/html/eng/bib ... bible.html


turnorburn

 

[Sparkey]

If its on the net is public domain Sparrowhawke.. :yes

http://www.onlinebible.org/html/eng/bib ... bible.html


turnorburn

Ahhhh, turnorburn, pardon but I believe you are mistaken. It is copyrighted and not public domain. The site you linked to does offer a download but that is for a fee and by agreement.

Special offer:
The order and download the Complete Jewish Bible for Online Bible for € 14.95.
Order and download the Complete Jewish Bible

I am no big nor great fan of this particular version (nor any other for that matter), but saying "because it is online it is public domain" is simply untrue.

Thanks though,
~Sparrow

 

[JoJo]

Anything online is copyrighted work, unless it is already in the public domain. While the web is public and it is a domain, it is not "public domain" as far as copyrighting goes.

http://www.copyright.cornell.edu/resour ... domain.cfm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_domain

http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_a ... /chapter8/

 

[Paidion]

Jesus' warning in Matthew 5:22, is that anyone who says to his brother "hraka" is in danger of the Gehenna of fire.

Lexicons say that the word "hraka" is an expression of contempt. Try pronouncing the word. As you do so, roll the "r". It is the sound a person makes to bring up spittle in order to spit.

In Luke 24:25, the word "ανοηÄοÂ" does not mean "foolish"; it means "without understanding".

In Matthew 23:19, the word "ÄÅÆλοÂ" does not mean "fools". It means "blind ones".

In Matthew 23:17, the word "μÉÃÂοÂ" does mean "foolish ones" or "fools". But this is not what Christ warned against in Matthew 5:22.

 

[Benoni]

Here is one of my favorites

Prov 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to
search out a matter.

Interesting things you are saying unto me there Mr. Benoni.

Yes there are mysteries and yes there are revelations. There are also things that are not revealed but purposefully done in darkness and fully hidden. I like Deuteronomy 29 (the full chapter) and the concluding words, "The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law."

I don't like any who teach or attempt to teach according to the doctrines of Balaam and Balak. I would expect full agreement on this from all who have declared themselves "of Christ". So now we have seen the end from the beginning. I am still sitting and hope to remain seated while I listen.

~Sparrowhawke

 

[Benoni]

Notice the word brother?

It does not say the loss, the heathen or even sinners; it uses the word brother. Gehenna is a place of purging for God's people. Never are the lost mentioned with the word Gehenna.

Jesus' warning in Matthew 5:22, is that anyone who says to his brother "hraka" is in danger of the Gehenna of fire.

Lexicons say that the word "hraka" is an expression of contempt. Try pronouncing the word. As you do so, roll the "r". It is the sound a person makes to bring up spittle in order to spit.

In Luke 24:25, the word "ανοηÄοÂ" does not mean "foolish"; it means "without understanding".

In Matthew 23:19, the word "ÄÅÆλοÂ" does not mean "fools". It means "blind ones".

In Matthew 23:17, the word "μÉÃÂοÂ" does mean "foolish ones" or "fools". But this is not what Christ warned against in Matthew 5:22.

 

[dadof10]

This is true. Men follow religion and reject God's anointing, (anti Christ/Anti anointing means the same thing), for this reason men grow religiously not spiritually. A spiritual man hears God's Spirit/Word. A religous man hears only his religious man made box. All things/beliefs must be understood or controlled in that religious man made box. Jeremiah called it a broken cistern.

I cannot and will not fit God’s Word in a man made box; it is like a river that flows and gets deeper and deeper; in fact so deep at times you cannot no longer stand; that is where faith comes in.

Jeremiah 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

I look around at the vast majority of God’s awesome people who remind me more of Lawyers defending the law according to the way they have been taught no matter how evil the law is. There is no room in their religious brain to dig deeper, or explore the most awesome book ever written; words like “new†scare them.

Broken Cisterns is all they have; Jeremiah had it totally right. To look beyond those man made principles is so contrary to established creeds and doctrine; they are just like the Catholic Church in the Dark Ages. Luther was a man who was called of God; Luther was not perfect; but Luther did something most Christians refuse to do; hear God and walk with the principles God had given Him.

I interpret the "broken cistern" metaphor in Jeremiah as the Jewish people of the time who have "forsaken" the true God for "no gods", and have "changed their glory for that which does not profit". Here are the pertinent verses.

"Has a nation changed its gods, even though they are no gods? But my people have changed their glory for that which does not profit.
12 Be appalled, O heavens, at this, be shocked, be utterly desolate, says the LORD,
13 for my people have committed two evils: they have forsaken me, the fountain of living waters, and hewed out cisterns for themselves, broken cisterns, that can hold no water. (Jeremiah (RSV) 2)

If you want to carry it forward into Christianity (which is tenuous), the proper interpretation for the broken cisterns would be those who have forsaken the Church that Christ founded, which is the Catholic Church. The ones who have "forsaken" Her are the reformers, like Luther, and other Protestants. That is my interpretation, anyway.

If you disagree (and I'm sure you do) ask yourself what makes your interpretation any more accurate than mine. If two believers, like us, disagree on what Scripture teaches, which one of us is right and why?

Maybe Jesus left an arbitrator behind, so to speak, in the form of an infallible Church to rule on the orthodoxy of doctrine and interpretation of Scripture?

Lutherans today hear Luther and walk with the principle Luther taught them, and do not comprehend God’s Spirit has moved beyond Luther and his dead creed and dogmas. The Bible is not a law Book; but a living moving book that goes beyond the principles man made established icons.

What makes you think "God's Spirit has moved beyond Luther and his dead creed and dogmas"? How is personal interpretation of scripture alone (I'm assuming that's what you believe) "moving beyond" a church structure that holds, what they consider to be, true creeds and doctrine? It seem to me that the "me and Jesus" mentality is a step backward from a structured church that teaches creeds.

 

[Benoni]

I do not believe in religion, or the tradition of religion. Religion restricts God's Word to man made creeds and laws. Babylon is a golden cup in the hands of the Lord; God uses the religious system; BUT my point is God's Word is not a broken cistern made of man made ideas; it is like a flowing river that gets deeper and deeper.

No one is asking you to follow what I say; I am here debating God people in an open debate to which most of you reject. That’s ok too because Jesus to was rejected by he organized religion of his day. If you do not like the words I say you have the right to show me where I am wrong. We are not behind closed doors here trying to restrict God's Word as we see it; we are out in the open where the rubber meets the road.

The Jews are our natural example on who we should understand God’s Word; there lessons and example can be seen in many way. Yes the Lutheran came out of the Catholic Church; but they never came out of Lutheranism.

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. (KJV)

The greatest power in the church today is the bias of the believers. Noticed I put a lower case on the word Church. There is a true Church and that has everything to do with the outward church; but much more to do with the inward Church. The inward church is in all of us for the word Church comes from the Greek word ecclesia which mean called out.



Four things men follow other then Christ: Colossians 2:8 See ye that no man deceive you by philosophy and vain fallacy, after the tradition of men, after the elements of the world, and not after Christ. Philosophy, vain fallacy, after the tradition of men, after the elements of the world, The name of God denotes the majesty the authority, the personality and the revealed character of God. In ever temple there is a god or and unseen god to which the temple is dedicated. God has given us a mind that must discover things for our selves. This goes even further when we understand that He is changing our mind from glory to glory so we can not just understand His Word; but that we understand what He is saying.

Isaiah 4
1And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man,
saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let
us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

This is true. Men follow religion and reject God's anointing, (anti Christ/Anti anointing means the same thing), for this reason men grow religiously not spiritually. A spiritual man hears God's Spirit/Word. A religous man hears only his religious man made box. All things/beliefs must be understood or controlled in that religious man made box. Jeremiah called it a broken cistern.

I cannot and will not fit God’s Word in a man made box; it is like a river that flows and gets deeper and deeper; in fact so deep at times you cannot no longer stand; that is where faith comes in.

Jeremiah 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

I look around at the vast majority of God’s awesome people who remind me more of Lawyers defending the law according to the way they have been taught no matter how evil the law is. There is no room in their religious brain to dig deeper, or explore the most awesome book ever written; words like “new†scare them.

Broken Cisterns is all they have; Jeremiah had it totally right. To look beyond those man made principles is so contrary to established creeds and doctrine; they are just like the Catholic Church in the Dark Ages. Luther was a man who was called of God; Luther was not perfect; but Luther did something most Christians refuse to do; hear God and walk with the principles God had given Him.

I interpret the "broken cistern" metaphor in Jeremiah as the Jewish people of the time who have "forsaken" the true God for "no gods", and have "changed their glory for that which does not profit". Here are the pertinent verses.

"Has a nation changed its gods, even though they are no gods? But my people have changed their glory for that which does not profit.
12 Be appalled, O heavens, at this, be shocked, be utterly desolate, says the LORD,
13 for my people have committed two evils: they have forsaken me, the fountain of living waters, and hewed out cisterns for themselves, broken cisterns, that can hold no water. (Jeremiah (RSV) 2)

If you want to carry it forward into Christianity (which is tenuous), the proper interpretation for the broken cisterns would be those who have forsaken the Church that Christ founded, which is the Catholic Church. The ones who have "forsaken" Her are the reformers, like Luther, and other Protestants. That is my interpretation, anyway.

If you disagree (and I'm sure you do) ask yourself what makes your interpretation any more accurate than mine. If two believers, like us, disagree on what Scripture teaches, which one of us is right and why?

Maybe Jesus left an arbitrator behind, so to speak, in the form of an infallible Church to rule on the orthodoxy of doctrine and interpretation of Scripture?

Lutherans today hear Luther and walk with the principle Luther taught them, and do not comprehend God’s Spirit has moved beyond Luther and his dead creed and dogmas. The Bible is not a law Book; but a living moving book that goes beyond the principles man made established icons.

What makes you think "God's Spirit has moved beyond Luther and his dead creed and dogmas"? How is personal interpretation of scripture alone (I'm assuming that's what you believe) "moving beyond" a church structure that holds, what they consider to be, true creeds and doctrine? It seem to me that the "me and Jesus" mentality is a step backward from a structured church that teaches creeds.

 

[dadof10]

I do not believe in religion, or the tradition of religion. Religion restricts God's Word to man made creeds and laws.

James and Paul would disagree with you.

27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world. (James (RSV) 1)

I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you so that, 15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. 16 Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of our religion: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory. (1Timothy (RSV) 3)

2 I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you. (1Corinthians (RSV) 11)

15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. (2Thessalonians (RSV) 2)

Not all "religion" and religious "traditions" are bad, and to reject them is to reject part of the Truth in favor of Scripture alone.

No one is asking you to follow what I say; I am here debating God people in an open debate to which most of you reject. That’s ok too because Jesus to was rejected by he organized religion of his day.

I'm not rejecting you, only your false notions.

If you do not like the words I say you have the right to show me where I am wrong. We are not behind closed doors here trying to restrict God's Word as we see it; we are out in the open where the rubber meets the road.

That's all I'm doing is showing you where you are wrong. You don't have to get defensive. I'm not attacking you personally, only your man-made doctrines. After all, this is an Apologetics debate forum.

The Jews are our natural example on who we should understand God’s Word; there lessons and example can be seen in many way. Yes the Lutheran came out of the Catholic Church; but they never came out of Lutheranism.

They erred in coming out of the Catholic Church to begin with.

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. (KJV)

What's your point here?