Does everyone believe in God?

[Wertbag]

Atheism is, in fact, illogical.
The word atheism means - negative god, or, no god.
That affirms a negative, which is a logical contradiction
How can you confirm a negative in the absolute? The only one way you can confirm this is with infinite knowledge.

You don't need to confirm any ideal absolutely, the same way that Christianity cannot prove all its claims. Its not a black and white, yes/no question, beliefs are based on what knowledge we have and what we have learnt. I'm a non-believer due to many factors, as I'm sure you are a Christian for many reasons. I'm sure you couldn't prove God to me, and I'm sure that no matter what I say I won't disprove him to you. Atheism is not simpy no god, but the belief that there is no god. As a belief is based on faith and knowledge its a perfectly valid standpoint.

Veritas wrote:
Now agnosticism is a different matter, all you have to do is prove that you don't know.

Tell me about it! I've been down that road. I had to backtrack. Came to a roadsign that said...Dead End.

There are two types of agnostics that I see, those who don't know, don't care and just want to be left alone (probably the majority). Then there are those who attempt to come to a conclusion, attempt to understand everyones views and haven't yet come to a final answer one way or the other. I try to fit myself into the second catagory, but after years of research I'm leaning towards atheism as the answer that makes the most sense to me. Definately wasn't a quick answer to come to, and I'm going to continue looking for answers for the years to come, but currently nothing is saying "there is a god" and a lot of things are saying "there is not".

 

[Veritas]

No, but it makes it impossible to simply assume them. Try applying these laws of logic to schõedinger's cat.

Firstly, Schõedinger's cat is one of five interpretations that I know of concerning quantum theory.

Secondly, Erwin Schrödinger devised the Schrödinger's cat experiment to illustrate the incompleteness of the theory of quantum mechanics when going from subatomic to macroscopic systems. In fact, his mention of it is hardly more than an aside. In a general paper on quantum mechanics, he discusses and rejects the interpretation.

Thirdly, despite the spectacular success of quantum mechanics, it remains an incomplete theory.

It's not that they are thrown aside, they are just not absolute.

Now what do you mean by that, because where we go from here is very important.

Are you saying that the universe is subjective and somehow dependent on consciousness? Surely it is not.

I said:
Well, use the four fundamental laws to figure out what I mean.

you said:
Don't be obtuse.

Okay, I'll assume you did figure it out and consider it obtuse.

If you would like me to go over it again, I will. But I think you know what I mean.

I said:
It would help if we could have a reasonable discussion.

you said:
Is it so unreasonable to ask that you post your own thread topics?

I apologize for that statement, it was unnecessary and rude. I tried to take it off my post, but obviously you caught it. I may post my own thread topic in the future.

Reason is an ability used to understand how the universe works, it isn't claimed to be the fundament cause for why the universe works. Thus it is not a deity.

I agree with you here. I believe there is somekind of thinking that transcends our reason, as quantum physics seems to point to.

 

[Vic C.]

...Then there are those who attempt to come to a conclusion, attempt to understand everyones views and haven't yet come to a final answer one way or the other. I try to fit myself into the second catagory, but after years of research I'm leaning towards atheism as the answer that makes the most sense to me. Definately wasn't a quick answer to come to, and I'm going to continue looking for answers for the years to come, but currently nothing is saying "there is a god" and a lot of things are saying "there is not".

My suggestion, if you are seriously seeking the truth, is to stop! Stop the researching, you just may become lost in all the confusion Satan has planted all around us. Stop looking for what makes sense to you. The Lord knows that no man is capable of salvation on his own. It says this all throughout Scripture.

Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

You are waiting for that loud shout from above that says, "Here I am!", when it is that still, small voice you should be listening for. Even at that, don't try so hard, we humans are so easily disappointed when things don't go our way, on our own time schedule.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Look around you. Look at the sky, the birds, the animals, (not the human ones- : ) the way the sun rises without fail in the morning and sets at night, like clockwork. Marvel over the innocence of the children, their smiles and laughter. The way the little ones grip your fingers and stare into your eyes as you hold them in your arms. Tell me, that was all just an accident. Sure, you may try to explain all that away with science and theories, but all you are really doing is trying to put into human terms the method(s) God uses to accomplish the wonders in and of His creation.

More times than not for the unbeliever, it is not just the searching that brings you closer to God. It is circumstances beyond your control that bring you face to face with the Lord. This, you can neither predict nor can you control it if and when it happens. I pray for your sake and others as well that it happens soon.

Read Matthew Chapters 5-7:27...this may give you a glimpse of how much greater God is compared to man.

Mat 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
Mat 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Mat 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

 

[Veritas]

Wertbag said:

You don't need to confirm any ideal absolutely, the same way that Christianity cannot prove all its claims. Its not a black and white, yes/no question, beliefs are based on what knowledge we have and what we have learnt...
.....I'm sure you couldn't prove God to me, and I'm sure that no matter what I say I won't disprove him to you.

Thank you for your honesty Wertbag, it is refreshing. I agree with you. There is absolutely no way I will convince you or anyone else of God. Likewise, its not really possible to disprove Him.

I'm a non-believer due to many factors, as I'm sure you are a Christian for many reasons.

Close. I'm Christian for one reason only. Christ.

Atheism is not simpy no god, but the belief that there is no god. As a belief is based on faith and knowledge its a perfectly valid standpoint.

Thank you for your honesty again. I agree, atheism ultimately takes faith to believe in. However, it is at this point that I see atheism as becoming a paradox itself.

If you are uncertain God exists, yet reject Him, there has to be a reason for that.

If it is knowledge, then so be it.

But what have you done by admitting there is no greater that can be conceived than that knowledge?

You don't have to answer that question, I know its debatable :wink:

...but after years of research I'm leaning towards atheism as the answer that makes the most sense to me. Definately wasn't a quick answer to come to, and I'm going to continue looking for answers for the years to come...

I found its not really possible to figure out anything for yourself with absolute confidence.

...but currently nothing is saying "there is a god" and a lot of things are saying "there is not".

What I am going to say is completely dependent on you believing me. And I apologize, I really have no way of proving this to you. You can take it as you like...

I am looking at the same things you are, and currently there are alot of things saying "there is God" and nothing is saying "there is not"

 

[Wertbag]

What I am going to say is completely dependent on you believing me. And I apologize, I really have no way of proving this to you. You can take it as you like...
I am looking at the same things you are, and currently there are alot of things saying "there is God" and nothing is saying "there is not"

Personally there are several things that have lead me to disbelieve. Like the ages in the Bible (I can't see anyway for humans to live to be 900 years old), the global flood (basically an impossibility without adding numerous miracles that aren't mentioned in the Bible), the share number of competing religions/churches (the majority of the world must be wrong regardless of the correct answer), the unstability of the Bible as the basis of faith (even Christian researchers admit to errors, but I find it hard to believe a book written by not first hand accounts hundreds of years after the events by unknown authors with unknown motives, translated through numerous languages, with bits added and removed depending on which church or king had a hand in it, by ancient people with only a basic understanding of our world and that makes such fantastic unproven claims). I've heard logical reasons for some of the Biblical stories (Noahs flood being regional or a myth from the epic of giglamesh, Sodom being built on a volcano or Job having a terrible life and trying to find someone to blame or some hope), whether or not they are correct is debatable, but they certainly make a lot of sense when viewed against what we know.
I have seen many holes in the young earth and creation beliefs (I've seen holes in evolution too and don't understand it well enough to make a conclusion on that). I've seen Christians argue with Christians over the meaning of what they believe in, what the Bible means, which church is correct, what brings salvation and dozen of other issues. Its obviously not clear, and I see no end to those arguements any time soon.

So yes I have based my disbelief on many things that I've been looking into. I'm sure each atheist will have a different set of reasons, but a lot of the basic ones are fairly commonly held by most of them. Its quite possible that some of them maybe answerable, but there are just too many holes and too many questions for me to have faith in any god.

 

[Vic C.]

All I have left to say is this...It's too hard to see the 'big' picture when your eye is pressed tight against the eyepeice of the microscope. There is one absolute I think we can all agree on.....we are all going to die one day. What happens to your conscience (spirit and/or soul) should be of great concern. You can not prove one way or another what happens to it. Since it is not material, yet we know it exists, what does happen to it? Doesn't that question irk you? It used to irk me...but not any more.

I am aware that Christianity and Star Wars don't always mix...but I would like to close with this quote...

“Use the Force, Luke. Trust your feelings!â€Â

 

[Veritas]

Wertbag said:

Personally there are several things that have lead me to disbelieve.

Are there really several things?

I can't see anyway for humans to live to be 900 years old

Is this really a reason? It could be true, but I've seen reputable Christian scholars debate that ancients just used a different way of counting years. Either way does it matter? No.

the global flood (basically an impossibility without adding numerous miracles that aren't mentioned in the Bible

Is this really a reason? Like you said, the flood could have been regional, or it could refer to something which we haven't completely discovered as of yet. Either way does it have much impact on the message of the Word? No, not really.

the share number of competing religions/churches (the majority of the world must be wrong regardless of the correct answer)

Is this really a reason? Are you claiming this is unjust? What right would you have to do this if you are not God?

the unstability of the Bible as the basis of faith (even Christian researchers admit to errors.

The Bible has been the butt of ridicule for 2,000 years and it is still the best selling book in all the world.
Please, understand that the Word is dynamic. Of course wording, and typing errors occur in the Bible. Do we try to say otherwise? No. Why? The meaning of the Word transcends typing errors as it does languages.

but I find it hard to believe a book written by not first hand accounts hundreds of years after the events by unknown authors with unknown motives, translated through numerous languages, with bits added and removed depending on which church or king had a hand in it, by ancient people with only a basic understanding of our world and that makes such fantastic unproven claims).

Would you believe it if it was written by known authors in your own language by modern people who claimed it was the inspired Word of God?

I've heard logical reasons for some of the Biblical stories (Noahs flood being regional or a myth from the epic of giglamesh, Sodom being built on a volcano or Job having a terrible life and trying to find someone to blame or some hope), whether or not they are correct is debatable, but they certainly make a lot of sense when viewed against what we know.

Those explanations don't really undermine what is written in the Word.

I have seen many holes in the young earth and creation beliefs (I've seen holes in evolution too and don't understand it well enough to make a conclusion on that).

As far as I'm concerned, whether the earth is old or new, it has no impact on the integrity of the Word.

I've seen Christians argue with Christians over the meaning of what they believe in, what the Bible means, which church is correct, what brings salvation and dozen of other issues. Its obviously not clear, and I see no end to those arguements any time soon.

Neither do I. But it's not suprising to me as a Christian. I believe it is merely because of our human shortcomings. Yes, there is quite a diversity among Christians. But do not forget; there is unity in that diversity; and that is Christ. All Christians bend their knee to Him as their Lord and Savior.

I find it interesting that you haven't given me what I would see as the biggest reason for disbelieving the Word.

Jesus.

He was a man that claimed to be God.

According to the Word, Jesus rose from the dead.

Jesus is the Word incarnate.

Those are incredibly preposterous claims. Are you telling me that if all those other things were satisfactorily explained and proven that you would accept that the Jesus was God and that He conquered death?

So yes I have based my disbelief on many things that I've been looking into.

I would like to help you narrow down those many things. May I suggest to you that your disbelief is simply a disbelief in the Word itself.

 

[Vic C.]

The Bible has been the butt of ridicule for 2,000 years and it is still the best selling book in all the world.

Ooh, one more thing to say...
The most-watched movie in the world is.....the Jesus film. It has been translated into over 852 languages, including some sign languages as well. http://www.jesusfilm.org/progress/translations.html What brought this to my attention was not any Christian sourse, it was reported on the TV show, Entertainment Tonight. The movie can be seen here... http://www.jesusfilm.org/languages/00529/

 

[Wertbag]

I was not giving a complete list, just a list of the things that I have come across that have cast doubt on the claims made. Does it matter if the ages are wrong, that the global flood is in fact regional or that some of the stories are natural events? Yes it does. For one thing if the Bible is simply a historic document describing natural events then there is no need for a divine being to have any hand in it. If the Bible is wrong then a lot of Christians will be very upset (a lot believe it is impossible for it to be so due to it being divinely inspired). If the Bible is shown to be natural or historical then its not divinely inspired, its mearly the reports written by the people of the age, and again god would not be required.

the share number of competing religions/churches (the majority of the world must be wrong regardless of the correct answer)

Is this really a reason? Are you claiming this is unjust? What right would you have to do this if you are not God?

What I'm saying is that religions don't agree on the number of Gods, on who the messiah is/was, on what is the written word of God and any number of other issues. They are not compatible. The Jews, Muslims, buddists etc do not believe that Jesus was the son of God. Regardless of which religion, if any, is actually correct most must be wrong. How do you prove one over the others? Its been tried for many years with no end in sight.

 

[Veritas]

Wertbag said:

I was not giving a complete list, just a list of the things that I have come across that have cast doubt on the claims made.

Okay, that's fine. You did bring up valid points. I was attempting to show you how I looked at those things. I wanted to give you a glimpse of how my perspective is different. There are many points of view for approaching this matter. Put yourself into my shoes if you can, and think about why I answer the questions as I do. If you see where I am coming from, you will find that there are not many problems that need answering, but one mystery to be trusted.

Does it matter if the ages are wrong, that the global flood is in fact regional or that some of the stories are natural events? Yes it does.

I believe there is a difference between what fallible humans can interpret from truth and truth itself. I'm not saying that the Bible is wrong about ages or other things, I am saying that humans may be wrong about interpreting some parts of the Bible.

Also, it doesn't matter to me if something is a "natural event". I believe God has his hands in natural events just as He does supernatural events.

For one thing if the Bible is simply a historic document describing natural events then there is no need for a divine being to have any hand in it.

I believe the Bible is a historic document; however, I believe it describes both natural and supernatural events. I believe culture today has put barriers in our minds. We do not accept or admit that there are things we do not understand or cannot understand, like the supernatural or like God. Humility seems to have been lost in modern thought.

If the Bible is wrong then a lot of Christians will be very upset (a lot believe it is impossible for it to be so due to it being divinely inspired).

First and foremost, we've put our trust in God. We trust that God provides us with Truth.

If the Bible is shown to be natural or historical then its not divinely inspired, its mearly the reports written by the people of the age, and again god would not be required.

To me, God is required for anything.

What I'm saying is that religions don't agree on the number of Gods, on who the messiah is/was, on what is the written word of God and any number of other issues. They are not compatible. The Jews, Muslims, buddists etc do not believe that Jesus was the son of God. Regardless of which religion, if any, is actually correct most must be wrong. How do you prove one over the others? Its been tried for many years with no end in sight.

Truth, is by nature, exclusive.

Here is the question you should ask yourself:

Do you desire truth?

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

No, but it makes it impossible to simply assume them. Try applying these laws of logic to schõedinger's cat.

Firstly, Schõedinger's cat is one of five interpretations that I know of concerning quantum theory.

Secondly, Erwin Schrödinger devised the Schrödinger's cat experiment to illustrate the incompleteness of the theory of quantum mechanics when going from subatomic to macroscopic systems. In fact, his mention of it is hardly more than an aside. In a general paper on quantum mechanics, he discusses and rejects the interpretation.

Thirdly, despite the spectacular success of quantum mechanics, it remains an incomplete theory.

Irrelavent to my point about logic, which still stands, if you prefer consider the quantum uncertainty principle. Quantum theory provides us with a counter example to the absoluteness of our logic, but not because they are wrong, it is because they are only right in our macro world. This is because we've tailored these laws to work there.

[quote:3eab6]It's not that they are thrown aside, they are just not absolute.

Now what do you mean by that, because where we go from here is very important.

Are you saying that the universe is subjective and somehow dependent on consciousness? Surely it is not.
[/quote:3eab6]
The laws of logic are based on our own observations of the universe, objective as they may be, they are subjective in the sense that they were not created when humans had as full an understanding of the universe as they do now. What I am saying is that they were created by human beings to describe what goes on in the universe as far as they could tell.

[quote:3eab6]
I said:
Well, use the four fundamental laws to figure out what I mean.

you said:
Don't be obtuse.

Okay, I'll assume you did figure it out and consider it obtuse.

If you would like me to go over it again, I will. But I think you know what I mean.
[/quote:3eab6]
I DID NOT know what you meant, that is why I asked.

[quote:3eab6]Reason is an ability used to understand how the universe works, it isn't claimed to be the fundament cause for why the universe works. Thus it is not a deity.

I agree with you here. I believe there is somekind of thinking that transcends our reason, as quantum physics seems to point to.[/quote:3eab6]
It is not that there is thinking that transcends our reason, as it is that our reason doesn't usually have to deal with quantum mechanics and feels unsure of itself when it does. Quantum events are like throws of a weighted die, what we in our macro world observe is the decisions and occurances that have resulted and the probabilities that have worked themselves out and said, we'll be 6 now, so you can just assume we'll be 6 tomorrow, and that we were 6 yesterday.

I apologize for not replying sooner, it's been a bit of a zoo lately.

 

[Veritas]

Syntax Vorlon:

We've certainly gotten off topic. But that's okay, I think we have quite an interesting discussion. I moving this to:

Logic, Quantum Physics, and Truth