Does God really "separate himself from sin"?

[Orion]

According to Christians:

God is "unable to look upon sin".
"Sin separated us from God".

So, I would ask, why aren't those who are out of God's "book of life" going insane from the "lack of having God in their life", which is supposed to be far worse than death?

Some may say that God hasn't fully separated himself, . . . . . so I would ask, "then God CAN look upon sin?" God either separates himself from sin, or he doesn't.

Hell is supposed to be "the separation from God". Is Hell a place where God is not? Of course, that would mean that God is not . . . omnipresent. So, if God IS omnipresent, than he can even found in hell...

How much of "man-made doctrines" have completely mis-represented who God is and how God operates in the natural and spiritual world?

 

[Free]

I am not so certain that omnipresence entails that God must be everywhere as this approaches pantheism. Certainly God can choose not to have his presence somewhere. And there is no reason to believe that a lack of God's presence in a person's life would make them insane.

 

[Rick W]

I am not so certain that omnipresence entails that God must be everywhere as this approaches pantheism. Certainly God can choose not to have his presence somewhere.

Absolutely.
God turned His back on Israel a number of times. He chose not to be with them. When that happened it wasn't good for Israel. Didn't mean there was any limit on His omnipresenence or even that He HAD to be with them. He just lifted His providence, His protection, His mercy from Israel and that meant misfortune for the Iraelites.

We may want to make God follow our rules of what we think omnipresence is but omnipresence is but a concept developed by man in an attempt to get a grasp on God's superiority, His sovereigncy, His majesty. Remember, man coined the word "omnipresence" so it's man that has a need to follow the rules of omnipresence. And that need to follow the concept doesn't mean the concept is all there is or that God must somehow follow man's ideas of the nature of His existance.

In other words you're trying to make a paradox of God by using the rules set forth by the concept of omnipresence as defined by men. It's not God that is in paradox but man's attempt of understanding the things he cannot grasp.

 

[Orion]

One thing we can agree on is the "concepts developed by man in an attempt to grasp God". . . . and I think many of them found their way into religious writings, ultimately now being found in Canon, and doctrines of various denominations.

So, people can exist outside of God's presence, and it NOT affect them with "gnashing of teeth" due to being removed from God?

This thread has ties to one of my other threads in which people responded to Christ's sufferings as being mostly about "God removing his presence". I didn't see how "God, the man called Jesus" could separate from Godhood at anytime AND still BE God. But we'll save that topic for my other thread.

As for "making a paradox", this is done all the time when Christians promote the idea of a Trinity, . . .which isn't found in the biblical canon anyway. You may be doing it with the "God chooses not to be some place. . . " Yet, then God is NOT omnipresent (adjective- present everywhere at the same time). So why do we say he is? And if God "can't stand to be in the presence of sin", how does he do it today, since sin is everywhere? Jesus spent his entire days on earth with sinners. Every one of them! Are these just "religious words with no real meaning"? I tend to think so. The "concepts developed by man in an attempt to grasp/understand God".

 

[handy]

I think the key distinction here is not that God 'cannot' look upon sin, but rather how He deals with sin.

Habakkuk 1:13 states:

"Thine eyes are too pure to approve evil, and Thou cannot look on wickedness with favor."

This little verse really sums up God's attitude and actions regarding sin. It's not that He cannot look upon sin, it's that He won't tolerate it.

I'm not sure that there is any text that states outright that God cannot 'look upon sin'. If there is, by all means post it and we can look at the context in which it is given. I know we hear this idea that God cannot look upon sin in many sermons, but the point of the sermon would most likely to be that there was a reason why God sent Jesus to become sin on our behalf, that reason being that God will not tolerate sin in His presence.

Once Adam sinned, sin became a problem that had to be dealt with. God cast Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden, which is Paradise, because Paradise is a place where God is.

But, once they were cast out of the Garden, God neither ignored them, nor their children. He continues to interact with man all along.

So why do we say that sin 'separates' us from God? Well it does. We cannot fully and completely experience His presense, and that is because of our sin. This does not mean that we are completely cut off from God, we aren't. We can experience God in any number of ways, mainly through the Holy Spirit. But, we are separated from God in that He doesn't commune with us daily, walking with us and talking with us, as He did with Adam and Eve in Paradise.

God is dealing with sin, as we've gone over in other threads and discussions, and there is a time when the separation with cease for those who have their sins absolved, and at that time we will once again be able to commune freely with God. Until then, we still have that separation.

I was trying to think of an analogy to help illustrate what I'm talking about, because I'm not sure that I'm making myself clear. The best I can come up with is what it is like in the prisons, where you can interact with a loved one, but you are nonetheless separated from that loved one by the walls and those glass windows with the phones. You can still talk and visit with your loved one, but the physical attributes of the prison nonetheless separate you, and your communion with your loved one is limited, until the day he is set free.

As far as the issue regarding hell and whether or not one would go insane if one is truly separated from God, I do think a certain amount of myth has arisen. I don't think the Bible really gives us enough information regarding what happens when someone who does not have their sins forgiven dies as of now. Let's take Adolf Hitler for example. Not discounting the possibility that he may have cried out for forgiveness before he died, he's probably a safe bet for someone who would wind up in hell. Is he there right now? I don't think so. Because Revelations 20 shows that all men who die outside of Christ will be judged after certain things take place, and those things haven't taken place. So, what's happening with Hitler right now, as I'm typing this? I don't know, and I don't think anyone else can truly 'know' for certain. There are a number of ideas, most have been explored in threads like the 'Hell' one. It seems clear enough though that God can enter into whatever 'hell' folks like Adolf are experiencing as of now. Whether or not He does, is totally up to Him.

But, once the White Throne Judgment has taken place and once Satan, the demons and all whose name are not in the Book of Life experience the second death, then we know that the separation between them and God is full and complete. Death and Hades then will be thrown into the lake of fire along with all who are unredeemed, and there is no longer any interaction between God and them after that. Is this a question of 'cannot' on God's part, or 'will not' on God's part? I don't know. I don't think there is any insight into God's mind on the subject.

 

[Orion]

I understood your "prison" analogy, handy.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

....So, I would ask, why aren't those who are out of God's "book of life" going insane from the "lack of having God in their life", which is supposed to be far worse than death?

God continues to call all men unto Him, even unto the last moment of their life. So they are not damned until after they die, and they still have God in their life in a way they do not know.

Some may say that God hasn't fully separated himself, . . . . . so I would ask, "then God CAN look upon sin?" God either separates himself from sin, or he doesn't.

Sin does not enter heaven. THAT is where sin cannot exist, because God is a consuming fire, and all bad things burn away in His presence.

Hell is supposed to be "the separation from God". Is Hell a place where God is not?

Hell is a "state", not a "place", since it is not in the material world. Hell is eternal seperation from God.

Of course, that would mean that God is not . . . omnipresent. So, if God IS omnipresent, than he can even found in hell...

God is omnipresent. But again, Hell is a "state", not a "place", so He cannot be "in" a place that is not a place.

How much of "man-made doctrines" have completely mis-represented who God is and how God operates in the natural and spiritual world?

I won't touch that one. You would not like my answer.

 

[Imagican]

According to Christians:

God is "unable to look upon sin".
"Sin separated us from God".

So, I would ask, why aren't those who are out of God's "book of life" going insane from the "lack of having God in their life", which is supposed to be far worse than death?

Orion,

There are 'gods' many on this planet and in the hearts of men. If you ask me, MOST that live OUTSIDE OF God's LOVE, ARE, in a 'sense', "going insane from the lack of having God in their life". Alcohol, drugs, money, power, prestige, vanity, etc........ Is being 'caught up' in the persuit of these 'things of THIS WORLD' NOT a sense of insanity? They HAVE 'gods' in their lives. Just NOT the TRUE God of 'creation', and Father of our Savior; Jesus Christ.

Some may say that God hasn't fully separated himself, . . . . . so I would ask, "then God CAN look upon sin?" God either separates himself from sin, or he doesn't.

ONLY through the death, ressurection, and our ACCEPTANCE and TRUTHFUL attempt at ADHERANCE to the commandments offered by OUR Savior is God ABLE to see US. For it is THROUGH the 'blood' of Christ that we have been made VISIBLE to God Himself.

Hell is supposed to be "the separation from God". Is Hell a place where God is not? Of course, that would mean that God is not . . . omnipresent. So, if God IS omnipresent, than he can even found in hell...

God IS omnipresent in SPIRIT. We CANNOT compare HIM to our weak and feeble understanding. The KNOWLEDGE OF God I am QUITE SURE is present in HELL. For that would BE a 'part' of the punishment involved with SUCH judgement.

How much of "man-made doctrines" have completely mis-represented who God is and how God operates in the natural and spiritual world?

MOST of our understanding HAS been 'tainted', if not COMPLETELY misunderstood by the rudiments of this world. The doctrines of 'men' ARE exactly what you have 'described' them TO BE. There is 'some truth' offered in most, but ALL are lacking ANYTHING 'complete'. For while MANY DO attempt an understanding and a relationship, MOST allow the 'world' to dictate the shape and form of EVERYTHING contained within their 'own' little worlds.

And if you SEEK the 'wisdom' of men, that is ALL you will 'receive'. As can be readily observed through a basic study of the 'Christian religion', it is RIFE with the 'philosophical' teachings of ancient scholars that PRECEEDED Christ and ATTEMPTED to mete the TWO: that offered by God through His Son, the prophets and apostles, with that which was 'the worldly understanding' of the philosophers of Rome and Greece, ending with a 'mismatch' set of 'beliefs' that were PURELY NEITHER. Something 'different' than offered by EITHER dicipline.

So, what do we DO? Well, if you wish to be a 'part of this world' and be 'accepted by it', then the INTELLIGENT thing to DO is 'follow IT'; the doctrines and understanding offered by MAN. If it TRULY God that you SEEK, then PUT away that which would lead you in a CONTRARY direction FROM Him. Place your FAITH in HIM rather than the 'world around you'. But beware: to DO so is to BECOME a 'literal' ENEMY of this World. And for THIS FACT, MOST that 'proclaim' to follow Christ, do so ONLY so long as it DOESN'T interfere with their LOVE of this world.

Confusing? Only because you QUESTION the validity of the 'world' in which you LIVE.

Not attempting to 'talk down' to you Orion. Not attempting to belittle your questions. I believe that they are PERTINENT to a 'coming to EITHER' and being 'content'. For there is NO way that one can TRULY question the 'churchology' that is preached WITHOUT being 'confused' as to: it's validity.

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

....MOST of our understanding HAS been 'tainted'...

Yours too?

I'm just asking.

 

[Imagican]

....MOST of our understanding HAS been 'tainted'...

Yours too?

I'm just asking.

YES, CC. MINE TOO. But the IMPORTANT thing is to TRY to 'weed through', (no pun intended), and ELIMINATE that in our lives that IS 'unholy', and LEARN that which IS. It is IMPOSSIBLE to 'set down' a group of 'man-made laws' that is ABLE to DO 'anything' FOR US. The LAW didn't 'work' from the 'beginning', and it's CERTAINLY NOT going to 'benefit' us by simply 'going back' and creating NEW ONES.

Our understanding of the LOVE of God is NO more possible to EXPLAIN to another through LAWS than it is able to be FORCED upon others THROUGH Laws. And MAN-MADE laws at that.

Even Peter, (who you happen to BELIEVE was your FIRST POPE), had PROBLEMS in understanding through being TAINTED by his PREVIOUS devotion. Continued to 'hold on to' what he found 'familiar'. Making it DIFFICULT for him to SEE the TRUTH until it was actually 'laid out before him'.

So too are we ALL bound to be LACKING in a 'complete' understanding; ESPECIALLY in areas where we can ONLY 'speculate'. But we DO have ENOUGH given in understanding to be ABLE to AVOID most of the 'pitfalls' that we encounter. But we MUST 'accept' the understanding offered INSTEAD of simply trying to 'skirt it' for the sake of 'self'.

But CC, I WILL offer this: MOST of the lack of understanding I HAVE can ONLY be blamed on ME. On MY allowing the 'world' to influence my understanding. i have NOT bowed to 'man-made' gods in order to ATTEMPT to follow the ONE TRUE GOD. And He HAS seen fit to offer MUCH more than I would EVER have 'dreamed' possible just moments ago. For WHEN I WAS 'living FOR this WORLD', I could have 'fallen for ANY understanding'. "Fried icecream"? Sure, would have been my reply. Buddah? Why not? Muhamed? What's the difference? Carve a 'statue' and burn incense to it? Bow and kiss it? Pray to it? Why not?

But AFTER having one's EYES opened, I wonder if it's EVEN possible to do such things or even RETURN to 'them' AFTER? I wonder? The 'dog returned to it's vomit', may be in reference to just such situations as well. Only time will tell.

You 'good folks' seem to take 'offense' when one of understanding and confidence in the Lord SPEAKS. Instead of discussing 'issues' and the importance of proper doctrine, it seems that many would rather critisize my method of delivery.

Question:

Do you believe that Paul 'meally mouthed' his statements concerning the WILL of God? How about Jesus? Peter? They STONED Stephen to death for his ability to STAND UP for the Word of God. But did that 'slow him down'? Of course not. As a matter of FACT, I am QUITE SURE that he FELT the presence and confidence of God GROW STRONGER, EACH and EVERY time he was confronted by those of this world that were UTTERLY Preturbed by his words.

But HEY, I am NOT here to cause dissention. ONLY to offer what I am ABLE to those that CHOOSE to understand. The rest; I have little that is ABLE to be accepted. And if what one USES to debate such issues is WHAT they have been 'taught' to them by 'someONE', then I propose that there IS a 'better way'.

I know, I know; I'm just 'another someONE'. Choose to believe what you will but the words that i offer are MOSTLY proven and true. Gained STRAIGHT from the Word of God WITHOUT the confusion thrown in by those that would INSIST that I MUST 'do it THEIR WAY'. I am NOT telling ANYONE what they MUST DO to PLEASE ME. I am offering that; what's MOST Important is, a 'pleasing of God'. And I am ATTESTING to the FACT that this IS possible. But NOT through the 'following of this world', but, HIS WORD.

And 'back to the question posed' in this thread:

The question is NOT CAN He, but WHY WOULD HE: For He IS 'able' to do as He PLEASES. That He is unable to LOOK upon sin does NOT mean that He CAN'T, it means that HE CHOOSES NOT TOO. He CAN DO AS HE WILLS so long as it DOESN'T contradict His BEING.

And contrary to what many propose: That God 'created sin', that is utterly untrue. He created THAT which 'created sin' but that is NOT the SAME. My 'Grandfather' did NOT 'create' ME. My father created me so far as being 'born' is concerned. And my father is NOT EVEN responsible for the 'choices' that I MAKE.

God IS separate from evil for that is WHAT He CHOOSES for Himself. And believe this folks: He IS ABLE to PLAINLY see that 'sin' in our lives. He DEFINITELY knows the difference between GOOD AND EVIL. When it is stated that He cannot even LOOK UPON SIN, that is IN REFERENCE to His DENYING a 'relationship' with those that LIVE IN SIN. So, unlike OUR inability to LOOK upon HIS Glory, He is CERTAINLY ABLE to SEE our behavior. And not only SEE, but hear our pleas for MERCY as well.

MEC

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

A simple "yes" would have sufficed.

You're cool with me, bro... ..crazy, but cool.

 

[Imagican]

Coming from you, I'll take 'that' as a 'compliment'.

Peace,

MEC

 

[Devekut]

People who refuse God, persistent and unrepentent sinners, are not infused with the supernatural life of God, ie. that life that does not belong to us by nature.

Our biological and mental life continues with or without any direct sustainence by God, albeit, those lives are contingent on God's will.

It is the supernatural life that is repelled and refused by persistence in sin. Many people do not realize that they are lacking in this because of the depravity of man's condition, like an infant unaware he lies in his soiled diapers.

I would say God's supernatural life, as mediated by those obedient to him, continues its presence in this world and, in a secondary sense, helps to stem the inevitable decline and decay of the solely natural life of human society.

In the end of times, when God takes all that are his own, there will be none left among among those of the purely natural order and man will be left fully on his own. Whatever that is like, it can only be hell.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Oh no: Not more Rapture hokum

 

[Devekut]

Crusdaer,

I'm not talking about the "Left Behind" kind of rapture.

I'm merely talking about the fact that, according to the Bible, one day the wheat will be separarated from the chaff, the weeds will be weeded out, the sheep from the goats (ect.)

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Oh. My mistake.