Does One Have To Be A Christian To Do What Is Right?

[Imagican]

Mutz,

Maybe I am just not able to adequately express myself in words. Let me try again.

I have lived in numerous different countries throughout the world. In every single one of them I have been offered love by those that DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE FATHER OF JESUS CHRIST. Whether this was offered through 'some other spirit' I cannot discern. But that there were SOME in each that were ABLE to offer LOVE is without denial.

Now, since God IS LOVE, the only conclusion that I am ABLE to come to is that for the REASON we were ALL created IN the image of God that this is possible. For there has been love offered with NOTHING expected in return. Even by those that do NOT profess a 'belief' in the One True God. Satan is 'slick' but he doesn't indescriminately offer love WITHOUT a purpose.

God WANTS all to BE saved. That is what Christ offered. That many will not has no bearing on whether the desire is there or not.

I know that you are of the persuasion that ONLY those CHOSEN are able to KNOW God. I cannot debate this for IF this is the case, what is the determining factor as to this choosing? Since I do NOT believe that God created those that He WISHED to destroy, then I MUST believe that ALL were created with the INTENT of 'having life'. That many will NOT accept what has been offered doesn't negate the desire.

Some would contend that 'WE' have NO CHOICE in matters such as the relationship that we have or don't have. I don't believe that we have a God of such elitism. That the SIMPLE were chosen, that the POOR were chosen, that the WEAK were chosen just goes to show that there IS SOMETHING that determines the CHOOSING. Not some indescriminant 'names drawn out of hat' type choosing, but something DEEPER.

Since the LAW was a teacher, then that just PROVES that we ARE capable of LEARNING. And perhaps it is contained within this CAPACITY to learn that the choices are made. There HAD to be a REASON that God chose Paul to 'spread the Word'. Something AbOUT HIM allowed God to KNOW that this man was CAPABLE of doing what NEEDED to be done. And this man, a persecutor of those that loved God.

I don't believe in God FORCING us to DO 'anything'. We either accept or deny. Johah plainly showed that one IS able to thwart the DESIRE of God. Abraham showed that God IS able to 'alter' that which He chooses to.

I have no such illusions that I am 'special' in the eyes of God. HE is special and I am but a lowly worm in His eyes. But I DO love Him. And He KNOWS this. Therefore He has CHOSEN to reveal much.

He does PUNISH those that He loves. But even through the punishment of God there are MANY that will NOT heed to His desire. For some are simply unable to BEAR that which they don't understand. This does not alter that the 'choice is theirs'.

Can we DO that which is right? I cannot answer this with concrete understanding. But we are ALL capable of exhibiting LOVE. And, since God IS Love, then that LOVE must come from GOD. What IS right? I believe that when we do that which we were DESIGNED to DO, then that IS right. Righteous? Don't know that this plays any part in doing what is RIGHT to do. For there is NOT one that IS righteous, but there ARE those capable of DOING the 'right' thing. Paul is a PERFECT example of what I speak. He was NO MORE righteous than ANY OTHER, but He certainly DID the 'right thing' in accepting what he was commissioned to DO and carrying it out without failing.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[epistemaniac]

it all depends on what the motives were for doing any deed, as to whether or not it ought to be considered good. It seems to me that anyone who consciously rejects God, or is outside of God's kingdom, does not capacity to do that which God considers to be good. Psalms 14:1 (ESV) The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.†They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good."
and
Isaiah 64:6a (ESV) We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment."

Donald Trump gave a billion dollars to the UN... the world of course considers this a good deed, but given that it is given from within a self consciously chosen position of hating God, almost a proof that one does not even need God in order to be "good", then that which the world considers good is really abominable in God's eyes.

So no, I do not think that a person or their deeds can be called good in God's eyes, the only eyes that matter.... though perhaps the world may indeed call certain deeds "good"... IMHO...

Hosea 6:6 (ESV) For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings. "

blessings,
ken

Hi Ken,

Unfortunately you are answering a question that I am not asking. There is a diffference between good and right. Good speaks of a quality that only God possesses. Right is simply the right thing to do at the time. Perhaps you could reconsider the question?

see the following, esp points 1-3:

"right"
Pronunciation:
\ˈrīt\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Middle English, from Old English riht; akin to Old High German reht right, Latin rectus straight, right, regere to lead straight, direct, rule, rogare to ask, Greek oregein to stretch out
Date:
before 12th century

1: righteous , upright 2: being in accordance with what is just, good, or proper <right conduct>3: conforming to facts or truth : correct <the right answer> 4: suitable , appropriate <the right man for the job>5: straight <a right line>6: genuine , real... (Merriam Webster)

If you had a different or at least a much more specific and narrow question, then perhaps you could have provided your own definition of "right" or "good" up front?

As it stands, I believe that I answered your question in that what the world may think is "right" is not necessarily that which is considered right or good by God. People, whether they be in Christ or not do things that are outwardly beneficial to others, no doubt about that. Matthew 7:9-10 (NASB) 9 "Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone? 10 "Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he?"

But..... God does not call someone who does such a deed "good", in fact, Jesus still calls such persons "evil": Matthew 7:11 (NASB) If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!"

So the state of the heart is still the most important question to ask in the context of this discussion. An outwardly beneficial deed may not be a necessarily morally good or right deed.

blessings,
ken

 

[epistemaniac]

It is no wonder that there is no unity or power in the church today. We need to start all over again, I'm afraid. I despair at trying to explain the most basic biblical doctrines. Repeating mantras does not equal the truth. God has surely blinded those who do not love the truth.

and as soon as everyone gets in line behind you and accepts your dogmatic pronouncements (mantras?) then every Christian will be doing just .... fine? After accepting and believing all that you have to say.... then we will be shown to .... love the truth...? Oh well lol.....

blessings,
ken

 

[mutzrein]

Finish what quote?

For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

A righteous man does what is right...only God is good. A good work is a perfect work. A man will sin if he is not in Christ. But he may still be righteous in God's eyes. That's why we can't judge from ourselves. We are blind to righteousness.

God is easy to please but hard to satisfy!

Actually that wasn't the scripture I was quoting.

Romans 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[mutzrein]

Mutz,

Maybe I am just not able to adequately express myself in words. Let me try again.

I have lived in numerous different countries throughout the world. In every single one of them I have been offered love by those that DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE FATHER OF JESUS CHRIST. Whether this was offered through 'some other spirit' I cannot discern. But that there were SOME in each that were ABLE to offer LOVE is without denial.

Now, since God IS LOVE, the only conclusion that I am ABLE to come to is that for the REASON we were ALL created IN the image of God that this is possible. For there has been love offered with NOTHING expected in return. Even by those that do NOT profess a 'belief' in the One True God. Satan is 'slick' but he doesn't indescriminately offer love WITHOUT a purpose.

God WANTS all to BE saved. That is what Christ offered. That many will not has no bearing on whether the desire is there or not.

I know that you are of the persuasion that ONLY those CHOSEN are able to KNOW God. I cannot debate this for IF this is the case, what is the determining factor as to this choosing? Since I do NOT believe that God created those that He WISHED to destroy, then I MUST believe that ALL were created with the INTENT of 'having life'. That many will NOT accept what has been offered doesn't negate the desire.

Some would contend that 'WE' have NO CHOICE in matters such as the relationship that we have or don't have. I don't believe that we have a God of such elitism. That the SIMPLE were chosen, that the POOR were chosen, that the WEAK were chosen just goes to show that there IS SOMETHING that determines the CHOOSING. Not some indescriminant 'names drawn out of hat' type choosing, but something DEEPER.

Since the LAW was a teacher, then that just PROVES that we ARE capable of LEARNING. And perhaps it is contained within this CAPACITY to learn that the choices are made. There HAD to be a REASON that God chose Paul to 'spread the Word'. Something AbOUT HIM allowed God to KNOW that this man was CAPABLE of doing what NEEDED to be done. And this man, a persecutor of those that loved God.

I don't believe in God FORCING us to DO 'anything'. We either accept or deny. Johah plainly showed that one IS able to thwart the DESIRE of God. Abraham showed that God IS able to 'alter' that which He chooses to.

I have no such illusions that I am 'special' in the eyes of God. HE is special and I am but a lowly worm in His eyes. But I DO love Him. And He KNOWS this. Therefore He has CHOSEN to reveal much.

He does PUNISH those that He loves. But even through the punishment of God there are MANY that will NOT heed to His desire. For some are simply unable to BEAR that which they don't understand. This does not alter that the 'choice is theirs'.

Can we DO that which is right? I cannot answer this with concrete understanding. But we are ALL capable of exhibiting LOVE. And, since God IS Love, then that LOVE must come from GOD. What IS right? I believe that when we do that which we were DESIGNED to DO, then that IS right. Righteous? Don't know that this plays any part in doing what is RIGHT to do. For there is NOT one that IS righteous, but there ARE those capable of DOING the 'right' thing. Paul is a PERFECT example of what I speak. He was NO MORE righteous than ANY OTHER, but He certainly DID the 'right thing' in accepting what he was commissioned to DO and carrying it out without failing.

Blessings,

MEC

Thanks MEC for giving me something to chew on.

You say, 'God WANTS all to BE saved. That is what Christ offered. That many will not has no bearing on whether the desire is there or not.'

Where is this recorded?

Blessings

 

[Adullam]

It is no wonder that there is no unity or power in the church today. We need to start all over again, I'm afraid. I despair at trying to explain the most basic biblical doctrines. Repeating mantras does not equal the truth. God has surely blinded those who do not love the truth.

and as soon as everyone gets in line behind you and accepts your dogmatic pronouncements (mantras?) then every Christian will be doing just .... fine? After accepting and believing all that you have to say.... then we will be shown to .... love the truth...? Oh well lol.....

blessings,
ken

My purpose in raising up this issue is to spare many Christians the rejection by Christ that awaits them if they follow their present course. It seems difficult for someone who has read all the answers to go back and study the questions. There is a need to suspend the knowledge of the answers for a moment and look at the whole equation. We need to take in the scale of God's way with man. This is a humbling experience.

The goal is to be established in humility and be inoffensive to God....regardless of our performance through obedience to the gospel. I'm talking failsafe. To those who hear it, it is wisdom. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. But fools rail, and are confident.

We are all in for a surprise come judgment day. Would that we would have a happy surprise.


<><

John

 

[Adullam]

Finish what quote?

For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

A righteous man does what is right...only God is good. A good work is a perfect work. A man will sin if he is not in Christ. But he may still be righteous in God's eyes. That's why we can't judge from ourselves. We are blind to righteousness.

God is easy to please but hard to satisfy!

Actually that wasn't the scripture I was quoting.

Romans 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

One must remember the scale of what one is reading about. An ocean liner floats....and a toy boat floats. But there is a vast difference in scale. One cannot cruise on a toy boat.

If there was none righteous (at all) then the bible is condemning itself in judging so many righteous (without Christ).

A person who misunderstands Paul's meaning is only deceiving themselves. Paul is talking about GOD'S RIGHTEOUSNESS. We cannot attain to God's righteousness apart from it being given us in Christ. The NT is not about foundations, but about edification into God's presence in holiness.

One does not destroy the ground floor in order to build a second floor. It is foolish to scavange from the bottom floor to build higher. One needs NEW MATERIAL. A new Righteousness. A higher Righteousness. We have missed the greatness of the scale of that righteousness. This is our greatest flaw; we have underestimated the power of God.

We can only see the scale if we return to the righteousness of upright men...and look from there.

Think scale. How big is the universe? How big is the planet we live on? How big are we?

Now compare everything to the greatness of God!

 

[Adullam]

Righteousness is only found in Christ. If something is good, lovely and righteousness worthy to behold it is of God. If not, it is from Satan.

False. God's righteousness is only found in Christ. You don't understand righteousness....that is evident. You cannot say that only ocean liners float.....I can prove you wrong by putting a leaf in the water. Learn what righteousness is. This could save you!

 

[mutzrein]

Adullam

I understand the difference between God's righteousness & man's. The way you are conveying it however is difficult to follow.

Blessings

 

[epistemaniac]

but what makes you think that just because someone might disagree with you that they have, automatically, not gone back and studied the questions? I mean, perhaps they have not pursued their studies in exactly the same way that you have. But surely one would not have to do that in order to be theologically correct in every respect, would they? After all, I hope you cannot blame people if, at first glance, they are a bit taken back at what seems like presumptuousness which says that following you and your ideas is what will save them from rejection from Christ.

BTW, could you write out the whole equation for me ;) If we need to take a look at it, and you have apparently read all the answers, suspended them, gone back and studied the questions, and now has arrived at the "whole equation", you must have it ready at hand, right? ;) If you have taken in the whole scale of God's way with man, are you telling me that the result of all that study and experience is that we Christians are to humble and inoffensive? Wow. You'll have to forgive me if I say that that sounds a bit like a mantra.

I know that you mean well. You are just trying to help. But you come across as someone who thinks that people need to believe just as you do in order to be right with Christ. But we have a verse that says that there is only one mediator between man and God, Jesus Christ. Forgive me I say you are sounding a bit like you think that you are in that place between me and Christ. On the one hand you say that the goal is humility, yet at the same time, it seems you think that only you have it all figured out, sounding a little overly confident if you will. That just does not strike me as particularly humble.

But as with anyone and everyone, I will take what you say, compare it to the Scriptures, and "spoil the Egyptians", for just as the Israelites were able to take the gold from the Egyptians as spoils, so too I will take any good that you say, and leave the rest....

blessings,
ken

It is no wonder that there is no unity or power in the church today. We need to start all over again, I'm afraid. I despair at trying to explain the most basic biblical doctrines. Repeating mantras does not equal the truth. God has surely blinded those who do not love the truth.

and as soon as everyone gets in line behind you and accepts your dogmatic pronouncements (mantras?) then every Christian will be doing just .... fine? After accepting and believing all that you have to say.... then we will be shown to .... love the truth...? Oh well lol.....

blessings,
ken

My purpose in raising up this issue is to spare many Christians the rejection by Christ that awaits them if they follow their present course. It seems difficult for someone who has read all the answers to go back and study the questions. There is a need to suspend the knowledge of the answers for a moment and look at the whole equation. We need to take in the scale of God's way with man. This is a humbling experience.

The goal is to be established in humility and be inoffensive to God....regardless of our performance through obedience to the gospel. I'm talking failsafe. To those who hear it, it is wisdom. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. But fools rail, and are confident.

We are all in for a surprise come judgment day. Would that we would have a happy surprise.


<><

John

 

[Paidion]

It is true that sometimes non-disciples act from selfish motives when they do things which outwardly appear to be righteous, which outwardly appear to arise from genuine concern for others. But in their case, the real motive is to get others to think well of them.

However, sometimes non-disciples act from pure motives. They genuinely wish to help others, to feed the hungry, and care for the widows, etc.

I think think the advantage that the disciple of Christ has in righteousness, is that the enabling grace of God, made possible by the sacrificial death of Christ, is made available to him so that he can practise righteousness consistently, whereas for non-disciples, righteous acts are more sporadic. As for unrighteousness, if the disciple occasionally falls into it, he is convicted, and repents of it (turns from it), whereas the non-disciple can act unrighteously, at least sometimes, without any sense of having done wrong.

 

[Adullam]

I remember working in an aircraft hangar one day when we heard that an entire wing had gone missing. One of the fellows joked that it had been probably been simply mis-labeled! ;)

I believe that the vast majority of Christians have not experienced the righteousness of God, but rather have only walked in their own. This is then re-labeled or redefined as being God's righteousness at work. :crazy Like...everything I do right is Christ and everything I do wrong is me.
In order for this scheme to work, the righteousness of non-Christians must be downgraded so as not to threaten our stranglehold on righteousness. This ploy only fools Christians...as non-believers don't buy it (with good reason)! Non-Christians do not go through the rigorous re-programming that we do ! ;) When you consider that people used to line up so that just the shadow of a holy Christian should fall over them...we should see from whence we have fallen. Rather than trying to convince non-Christians of our righteousness, we should be beating them off with a stick, as it were; that is, if we truly possessed the power of the life to come.

John

 

[MMarc]

30 Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. 34 So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 On the next day, when he departed,[j] he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ 36 So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?â€Â
37 And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.â€Â
Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.â€Â

The priest and the Levite knew what God they worshipped but did not help the poor man. They were Holy but not righteous...
The Samaritan, like the Samaritan woman at the well, did not know what he worshipped but was the only one to show mercy. He was righteous but not Holy.

Jesus was talking to those who knew which God they worshipped, but He taught that we should also be righteous towards our fellowman... Otherwise our love of God is just lip service...

 

[Adullam]

30 Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. 34 So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 On the next day, when he departed,[j] he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ 36 So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?â€Â
37 And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.â€Â
Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.â€Â

The priest and the Levite knew what God they worshipped but did not help the poor man. They were Holy but not righteous...
The Samaritan, like the Samaritan woman at the well, did not know what he worshipped but was the only one to show mercy. He was righteous but not Holy.

Jesus was talking to those who knew which God they worshipped, but He taught that we should also be righteous towards our fellowman... Otherwise our love of God is just lip service...

Amen bro! Even though the type of holiness has changed, from temple holiness to relational holiness, the same rules apply! Holiness without righteousness is Balaam-ism!

<><

John