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EASTERN ISLAMIC SLAVE TRADE

G

Gabe

Guest
[youtube:2pfd9ic2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AowSpZDQ0BA[/youtube:2pfd9ic2]

The Eastern Islamic Slave Trade is the longest yet least discussed of the two major trades. Much like the Christian Crusades & Islamic Conquests, you only hear of the one and not the other. Many people don't even know that the Arab slave trade ever existed, even though it began around 650 AD (pre-dating the European slave trade by over a thousand years) However, It was only officially abolished in the 1960's (due largely to pressure from the West and not their own conscience) and the slave trade still exists and there are many people living in slavery to this day in the East.

Many people are under the misconception that Whites have always been the ones who have oppressed other races and never vice-versa, but lets not forget the 1 million to 1.25 million Europeans who were captured and sold into the Muslim Arab slave trade between the 16th and 19th century. This (just like the trade of Africans by Muslims) is an atrocity that many want to erase from our history books and have largely suceeded in doing so. Here is an edited extract from an article that discusses the issue of White Christian slaves and their treatment at the hands of Islam:

White Slaves, African Masters

An Anthology of American Barbary Captivity Narratives is a book that illuminates a subject once well-known in the history of the West but which is now somewhat neglected: the enslavement, over several centuries, of tens of thousands of white Christian Europeans and (later) Americans in Muslim North Africa (a very conservative number as it has been estimated by some to be between 1 million and 1.25 million) or the so-called Barbary states of Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Tripoli. Over the course of 10 centuries, tens of thousands of these unfortunates became the possessions of Muslims in North Africa courtesy of the feared Barbary pirates. These pirates cruised the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean in search of European and, later, American ships to pillage and plunder.

Christian slaves of European ancestry were hardly an uncommon phenomenon in the Barbary States. The Barbary pirates were excellent seafarers and, from the Coasts of North Africa, sailed as far north as Iceland (where they went ashore and captured 800 slaves during one incident) and as far West as Newfoundland, Canada, where they pillaged more than 40 vessels at one time. By 1620, reports Baepler, there were more than 20,000 white Christian slaves in Algiers alone.

The first-person narratives reproduced in this book do not support the often-repeated contention that slavery was somehow a more human institution in the Islamic world than it was in the European colonies of the New World.

By and large, the Christian slaves were poorly fed and housed, existing, by one account, on a meager ration of two slices of bread and a small quantity of beans per day. Clothing and medical care was provided by sympathetic free Europeans living in North Africa; slave-owners provided nothing. Spanish Catholic priests even built a large hospital in Algeria to look after ill and dying Christian slaves.

The most popular punishment was the bastinado; hundreds of blows on the soles of the feet with a thick wooden truncheon. For more severe offenses, such as attempting to escape or ridiculing the Muslim religion or prophet, slaves were executed in particularly cruel ways: by crucifixion, burning at the stake or impalement on huge iron hooks until death. The narrators of these slave accounts witnessed many acts of brutality toward the Christian slaves, as well as toward the general North African populace ruled over by the elite: the beys, deys and bashaws of the Barbary States.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Racism may not have been the motivating factor behind Islamic slavery (which was and is monetary gain and sexual exploitation, of anyone non-Muslim), but it was a factor nonetheless:

"The only people who accept slavery are the Negroes, owing to their low degree of humanity and their proximity to the animal stage,"
14th Century Arab philosopher Ibn Khaldun

"The children of a stinking Nubian black---God put no light in their complexion!"
Arab Poet, late 600's AD

and another Arab writer, of the 14th Century, asked "Is there anything more vile than black slaves, of less good and more evil than they?"

Although It matters little which was worse because slavery is slavery, some people seem to think that if Christian or Western history can be shown as more barbaric or much worse than Islamic or Eastern history then it's somehow more "acceptable" so here are a few extracts from articles detailing some of the differences between the Eastern and Western slave trades, followed by some links for further reading:


Contrasts In Captivity

A comparison of the Islamic slave trade to the American slave trade reveals some interesting contrasts. While two out of every three slaves shipped across the Atlantic were men, the proportions were reversed in the Islamic slave trade. Two women for every man were enslaved by the Muslims.

While the mortality rate for slaves being transported across the Atlantic was as high as 10%, the percentage of slaves dying in transit in the Trans Sahara and East African slave trade was between 80 and 90%!

While almost all the slaves shipped across the Atlantic were for agricultural work, most of the slaves destined for the Muslim Middle East were for sexual exploitation as concubines, in harems, and for military service.

While many children were born to slaves in the Americas, and millions of their descendants are citizens in Brazil and the USA to this day, very few descendants of the slaves that ended up in the Middle East survive.

While most slaves who went to the Americas could marry and have families, most of the male slaves destined for the Middle East were castrated, and most of the children born to the women were killed at birth.

It is estimated that possibly as many as 11 million Africans were transported across the Atlantic (95% of which went to South and Central America, mainly to Portuguese, Spanish and French possessions. Only 5% of the slaves went to the United States).

However, at least 28 million Africans were enslaved in the Muslim Middle East. As at least 80% of those captured by Muslim slave traders were calculated to have died before reaching the slave markets, it is believed that the death toll from the 14 centuries of Muslim slave raids into Africa could have been over 112 million. When added to the number of those sold in the slave markets, the total number of African victims of the Trans Saharan and East African slave trade could be significantly higher than 140 million people.

The Abolition of Slavery

The institution of slavery regretably existed both in the old, classical Christian and Islamic civilizations. Yet it is to the credit of Christianity that the abolition movement took root in Great Britain, Western Europe, and the United States and brought an end to this buying and selling of human beings.

The way in which slavery was practiced in Islamic countries had both bright and dark sides. What is regretable now is that this practice among Muslims is seldom openly discussed - as if slavery was exclusively a Western phenomenon. This deliberate silence enables Islamic propagandists in America to represent Muslims as liberators of the people of African origin, contrary to historical fact.

Every nation and every race has an ugly past.
 
Ah, the "Religion of Peace", thing is western media has an agenda and blacks/whites taken as slaves by Muslim's does not exist for them.
To them slavery is/was only white slavery of blacks in the 16th-19 centuries. They don't want their world view muddled up by facts.
Thanks for the great post.
 
Thank you Barabas. I'm glad that there are some who appreciate my posts.
 
I'm glad to see there is someone here who know's his biz when it comes to the "Religion of peace".
We have a very violent mosque in Calgary, paid for with Saudi dollars.
The west, and Christians in particular better open their eyes to what's going on around them.
This bolldthirsty death-cult gives us few options.
you can convert, become dhimmi, or die. You pick.
I for one, will not submit. lan astaslem.
 
All what is Written above talks about what did Muslims and christians do not what Islam and christinaity says!

So you say that slavery were in Christianity and Islam but Christians are better becuase they are first ones to call for Freedom of slaves right!?

But:

Christians should have Holy spirit that Guide and inspire them while Muslim dont claim such thing, right!?

Which raise Question why didnt Holy spirit inspire Christians for more then Thousands of years to free slaves or give them rights, this is really Question that I would like to hear opinion about it!?

Now if we change the subject to ISLAM not Muslims then we find that Islam is the Only Religion that:

1- gave Gradual solution to this problem!
2- gave RIGHTS during this gradual solution to this problem and made slaves like employees!
3- gave freedom to slaves if they ask it and Obligated master to help him also after he free them and this is Due to Holy Quran verses!

This is in very brief!

Peace
 
Love25 said:
1- gave Gradual solution to this problem!
Where does Islam (the Quran or ahadith) provide the 'solution' to slavery? As far as I am aware, there is no 'gradual solution' - you may keep slaves and manumit them as you see fit. There is no 'end date' where slavery is then outlawed. Can you please source this claim?

Love25 said:
2- gave RIGHTS during this gradual solution to this problem and made slaves like employees!
What rights? No, slaves are "right hand possessions" in Islam - Right hand possessions are your property (women, houses, land, money, slaves). In Islam slaves are treated as property (because that is what they are); Quran 4:3 even says that if you can't afford to pay the Mahr (dowry) for a wife, then you may satiate yourself with your "those in your right hand". If you want to marry them, you can marry them and not pay a Mahr (their 'freedom' is their Mahr as Muhammad did with Saffiyah one of his Jewish captives) or you can just have sex with them, as your wives and right hand possessions are "halal" (legal) for you.

Can you please source the texts that led you to believe that slaves in Islam are treated like employees?

Love25 said:
3- gave freedom to slaves if they ask it and Obligated master to help him also after he free them and this is Due to Holy Quran verses!
There is nowhere in Islam's texts that state that you must (or even can) grant freedom to a slave simply if they request it. Muhammad's own example shows this to be false. While true that you can manumit a slave whenever you want,it is YOUR (the owner's) decision and nothing to do with the slave. This sounds noble, right? Not in practice. When a slave gets old or infirm or injured, meaning they cannot work (or are not as productive) then you can manumit them (chuck them out with NOTHING) and go and get another slave (who is more able). Doesn't sound so noble now, does it? Since there is no law against having slaves, you are free to repeat this cycle over and over again to the detriment of any of your captives.

Can you please source your claims for this as well?


Best Wishes :)
 
Where does Islam (the Quran or ahadith) provide the 'solution' to slavery? As far as I am aware, there is no 'gradual solution' - you may keep slaves and manumit them as you see fit. There is no 'end date' where slavery is then outlawed. Can you please source this claim?
Love25 said:
You are right you are not aware, to be aware it needs a lot of time becuase there is a lot of verses and Hadiths that talk about this but In general:

Before Islam:

There were a lot of sources to slaves and only ONE way for Freedom and this that Master should decide to give freedom to slaves!

After Islam:

All sources of slaves were CLOSED and only one source were left and this is through WAR, and at same time a lot of DOORS were opened for freedom!

And during that Islam Gave RIGHTS to slaves and right to ask freedom and Islam even especial rules for women slaves to FREE them and make their children Free and to give them Rights and this through RIGHT POSSES system!

You can investigate what i wrote above in Muslim web sites but if you want I will bring you verses from Quran and Hadiths that PROVE what I just said above, and by the way such things you will not find in Christinaity!

--------------------------------

What rights? No, slaves are "right hand possessions" in Islam - Right hand possessions are your property (women, houses, land, money, slaves). In Islam slaves are treated as property (because that is what they are); Quran 4:3 even says that if you can't afford to pay the Mahr (dowry) for a wife, then you may satiate yourself with your "those in your right hand". If you want to marry them, you can marry them and not pay a Mahr (their 'freedom' is their Mahr as Muhammad did with Saffiyah one of his Jewish captives) or you can just have sex with them, as your wives and right hand possessions are "halal" (legal) for you.

Can you please source the texts that led you to believe that slaves in Islam are treated like employees?


As I mentioned before I read this:

RIGHT POSSES is SYSTEM to Finish slavery and to give slave women RIGHTS and free them and their children, and I guess I will have to explain to you know RIGHT POSSES:

Islam made source for Slaves ONLY one, and this is through WARS (as mentioned above) but this were only becuase the other side whether Pagans or jews or Christians took Muslim captured women , men or children as slaves, so to solve this problem it needs TWO parties to agree and since non Muslims took Muslims as slaves, so Muslims took them alsoa s slaves, while all other sources for slaves were STOPPED Only by Islam!

So when enemy Women captured in Desert and during battles there were two solutions:

1- To free them, then were they will go in desert actualy even if non Muslims find them they will took them as slaves!?
2- Leave them in streets so prostitution etc.... will be spread and they will be used by bad men or they can mary slave men and their children will be also slaves etc...

So Islam made Right Posses system and that Muslim men can take Right Posses beside wives and by that those women become;

FREE and treated and have rights same like wives
their children will be FREE becuase they came from free father and Mother

So RIGHT posses is system that were made to PROTECT WOMEN SLAVES and make them FREE!

Two question will occur:

1- why didnt Islam forbide slavery at once, answer:

Slavery were world wide problem and economics of countries depended on it, so if it is stopped immidiatly this would not be WISE and what happened between North and South America is Example of this!

Beside that to stop slavery it needs All sides Muslims and Non Muslims to agree about it, so we cannot blame Islam for system that were found before ISLAM!

2- Do we have Right posses in now days!?

Answer:

Do non Muslims enemies take Muslim women as slaves!?

If not then we dont have Right Posses!

---------------------------------

[quote:2p88eixe]There is nowhere in Islam's texts that state that you must (or even can) grant freedom to a slave simply if they request it. Muhammad's own example shows this to be false. While true that you can manumit a slave whenever you want,it is YOUR (the owner's) decision and nothing to do with the slave. This sounds noble, right? Not in practice. When a slave gets old or infirm or injured, meaning they cannot work (or are not as productive) then you can manumit them (chuck them out with NOTHING) and go and get another slave (who is more able). Doesn't sound so noble now, does it? Since there is no law against having slaves, you are free to repeat this cycle over and over again to the detriment of any of your captives.
[/quote:2p88eixe]


The Text from Holy Quran you asked:

Noble Verse 24:33

"Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until God gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which God has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is God, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),"

In this Noble Verse, we see that if a slave requests his freedom from his Muslim master, then his master not only must help him earn his freedom if there is good in the Slave, but also pay him money so the slave can have a good start in his free life.

May Allah (swt) guide us all!

Peace
 
Love25 said:
All sources of slaves were CLOSED and only one source were left and this is through WAR, and at same time a lot of DOORS were opened for freedom!
Yes well while Muslims were attacking all non-Muslims around them and taking their women and children as slaves, this is a sure bet that slavery was rampant. What other ways was slavery sourced before Islam?

Love25 said:
And during that Islam Gave RIGHTS to slaves and right to ask freedom and Islam even especial rules for women slaves to FREE them and make their children Free and to give them Rights and this through RIGHT POSSES system!
What? So you can marry a slave and she gets her freedom (I agree) but how does that make her (truly) free? She's still property of her captor.

Love25 said:
You can investigate what i wrote above in Muslim web sites but if you want I will bring you verses from Quran and Hadiths that PROVE what I just said above, and by the way such things you will not find in Christinaity!
Yes please. Also I'm an Atheist - I don't care what Christianity says.

Love25 said:
RIGHT POSSES is SYSTEM to Finish slavery and to give slave women RIGHTS and free them and their children, and I guess I will have to explain to you know RIGHT POSSES:
NO. Right hand possessions are PROPERTY. Slaves are PROPERTY. There is no reformation or bettering of conditions here. In fact I believe things got worse - even to the point that Muslim men were allowed to rape their new female captives in front of their husbands.

Love25 said:
but this were only becuase the other side whether Pagans or jews or Christians took Muslim captured women , men or children as slaves, so to solve this problem
Can you please provide the evidence that Non-Believers took Muslims as slaves? And HOW does this solve the problem of slavery? it doesn't! Also if you note that the men captives were beheaded by the Muslims (and not kept) so again Islam comes out worse.

Love25 said:
it needs TWO parties to agree and since non Muslims took Muslims as slaves, so Muslims took them alsoa s slaves, while all other sources for slaves were STOPPED Only by Islam!
You haven't defined these "sources" so your claim is irrelevant until you explain what you are talking about. It needs two parties to agree to what?!

Love25 said:
So when enemy Women captured in Desert and during battles there were two solutions:

1- To free them, then were they will go in desert actualy even if non Muslims find them they will took them as slaves!?
You have provided NO evidence that non-Muslims were taking Muslims as slaves (or women).

Love25 said:
2- Leave them in streets so prostitution etc.... will be spread and they will be used by bad men or they can mary slave men and their children will be also slaves etc...
No, in society BEFORE Islam (and in Pagan Arabia), women were allowed to work and earn their own money. They would have been fine. Want evidence? You need look no further than Muhammad's first wife Khadija - Muhammad worked for HER.

Love25 said:
So Islam made Right Posses system and that Muslim men can take Right Posses beside wives and by that those women become;
No, it's the same system. Right Hand possessions are Property and slaves are property. However, God (Muhammad) had to make sexual relations with these women permissable and that's why its talked about so much in the Quran.

Love25 said:
FREE and treated and have rights same like wives
their children will be FREE becuase they came from free father and Mother
NO! They are not "free" just because they are right hand possessions. If you want to marry them, you CAN give them their freedom in lieu of a Mahr (dowry) but you don't *have* to. Your claim is completely false here.

Love25 said:
So RIGHT posses is system that were made to PROTECT WOMEN SLAVES and make them FREE!
No, this is not accurate (read above please).

Love25 said:
Slavery were world wide problem and economics of countries depended on it, so if it is stopped immidiatly this would not be WISE and what happened between North and South America is Example of this!
Answer these questions please:

1.Is the Quran a book for all time? (Y/N)
2. Is Muhammad Uswa Hasana? (Y/N)
3. Where does the Quran say slavery is NOT allowed or it should be stopped after <such and such a date>? (It doesn't)

Fact is that God forgot to tell his followers that slavery was WRONG. Muhammad's morality is wrong and so is Allah's because they did not prohibit slavery. From what you have said, the Quran appears to be a book upholding the moral standards of the time. Yeah?

Love25 said:
Beside that to stop slavery it needs All sides Muslims and Non Muslims to agree about it, so we cannot blame Islam for system that were found before ISLAM!
Yes we can, because Islam claim's it's following GOD, and God endorses slavery! We humans now know better than God (if Allah is God).

Love25 said:
Do non Muslims enemies take Muslim women as slaves!?

If not then we dont have Right Posses!
You need to read your Quran. Right hand possessions are your property (including money, land, wives etc...). Can you please SHOW me where the Quran says not to take slaves? Simple, right?

Love25 said:
The Text from Holy Quran you asked:

Noble Verse 24:33

"Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until God gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which God has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is God, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),"
Yes of course I've seen this verse. So let's get the sequence of events straight here:

1. Muslims attack a village. They take EVERYONE as captives and take ALL of their property.
2. The men and boys with pubic hair (old enough) are beheaded.
3. Muhammad takes 1/5 of the booty (including property, money, land, women, children etc..) for himself.
4. The REST of the booty is divided up between the Jihadis.

5. If one of those slaves WANTS freedom, they have to PAY their (new) master for it. But they cannot because all of their possessions and wealth have JUST BEEN DIVIDED UP and given away to others.

This is a ridiculous statement from Allah! They can't pay (and hence CANNOT be freed) because they have NOTHING with which to pay their own ransom.

Love25 said:
In this Noble Verse, we see that if a slave requests his freedom from his Muslim master, then his master not only must help him earn his freedom if there is good in the Slave, but also pay him money so the slave can have a good start in his free life.
No your interpretation is Waaay off track. Please read above.
 
Yes well while Muslims were attacking all non-Muslims around them and taking their women and children as slaves, this is a sure bet that slavery was rampant. What other ways was slavery sourced before Islam?
Love25 said:
A lot of source for example man have dept he gives his children as slaves, you can attack village without any reason and take them slaves, anyone can kidnape people and make them as slaves etc.... of things you can read and investigate them from books of History!

---------------------------------
[[What? So you can marry a slave and she gets her freedom (I agree) but how does that make her (truly) free? She's still property of her captor.]]

better then becoming slave and better then left in desert to die or to streets so she maybe taken as slave or work in prosititution etc.... take in consideration the difference between past times and present!

When those women become free and their children became free after generations slaves become less and less gradualy, right!?

--------------------------------

Yes please. Also I'm an Atheist - I don't care what Christianity says.
Love25 said:
here is some Verses from Quran and hadith you can read them:

Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ash'ari: "The Prophet said, "Give food to the hungry, pay a visit to the sick and release (set free) the one in captivity (by paying his ransom)." (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Food, Meals, Volume 7, Book 65, Number 286)"

God will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths, but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths: for expiation, feed ten indigent persons, on a scale of the average for the food of your families; or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If that is beyond your means, fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths ye have sworn. But keep to your oaths. Thus doth God make clear to you His signs, that ye may be grateful. (The Noble Quran, 5:89)"

"But those who divorce their wives by Zihar, then wish to go back on the words they uttered, (It is ordained that such a one) should free a slave before they touch each other: Thus are ye admonished to perform: and God is well-acquainted with (all) that ye do. (The Noble Quran, 58:3)"

Narrated Asma: "No doubt the Prophet ordered people to manumit slaves during the solar eclipse. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Eclipses, Volume 2, Book 18, Number 163)"

"'Abdullah b. 'Umar reported that 'Umar b. Khattab asked the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) as he was at ji'rana (a town near Mecca) on his way back from Ta'if: Messenger of Allah, I had taken a vow during the days of Ignorance that I would observe I'tikaf for one day in the Sacred Mosque. So what is your opinion? He said: Go and observe I'tikaf for a day. And Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) gave him a slave girl out of the one-fifth (of the spoils of war meant for the Holy Prophet). And when Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) set the war prisoners free. 'Umar b. Khattab heard their voice as they were saying: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) has set us free. He (Hadrat 'Umar) said: What is this? They said: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) has set free the prisoners of war (which had fallen to the lot of people). Thereupon he (Hadrat 'Umar) said: Abdullah, go to that slave-girl and set her free. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Oaths (Kitab Al-Aiman), Book 015, Number 4074)"


-------------------------------
 
NO. Right hand possessions are PROPERTY. Slaves are PROPERTY. There is no reformation or bettering of conditions here. In fact I believe things got worse - even to the point that Muslim men were allowed to rape their new female captives in front of their husbands.
Love25 said:
Right Posses = wife but it called so becuase they are allowed to have right posses beside Four wives as at those times women were more then men becuase of wars!

And by the way when Islam came it DECREASED number of wives!

---------------------------------
Can you please provide the evidence that Non-Believers took Muslims as slaves? And HOW does this solve the problem of slavery? it doesn't! Also if you note that the men captives were beheaded by the Muslims (and not kept) so again Islam comes out worse.

For First part why dont you read History!?

For second part who said that men captives are beheaded!?

Criminals and killers only are beheaded and this is Subject to Ruler or Judge and due to situation!

---------------------------------

[quote:28gygahv]You haven't defined these "sources" so your claim is irrelevant until you explain what you are talking about. It needs two parties to agree to what?!
[/quote:28gygahv]
Love25 said:
it needs two parties to agree to stop taking captives of the other side as slaves in wars and battles!

For the first part I gave some examples above!

---------------------------------
 
[[You have provided NO evidence that non-Muslims were taking Muslims as slaves (or women)]]

I dont need evidence to that, it is very known History and way of life at that time!

-------------------------------

[[No, in society BEFORE Islam (and in Pagan Arabia), women were allowed to work and earn their own money. They would have been fine. Want evidence? You need look no further than Muhammad's first wife Khadija - Muhammad worked for HER.]]


Khadija (pbuh) were exception like any women from Nobel or rich family in history and women were treated worse then animals at those times!

And since you know well Islam then you would know that when girl is born they used to kill them as it were considered Disgrace and this practice they used to do till Islam came and stopped it!

------------------------------

[[No, it's the same system. Right Hand possessions are Property and slaves are property. However, God (Muhammad) had to make sexual relations with these women permissable and that's why its talked about so much in the Quran.]]

Islam DECREASED number of wives and at those times they didnt have and sexual problems like we have in present times, and How can you compare SLAVE women with women who became FREE and have same right live Wives and their Children became FREE and not born slaves!?

-----------------------------

[[NO! They are not "free" just because they are right hand possessions. If you want to marry them, you CAN give them their freedom in lieu of a Mahr (dowry) but you don't *have* to. Your claim is completely false here.]]

I see you dont understand what Mahr is as start it is something done before marriage while I said Right posses treated and have rights same like wives and this is better then they would be left in desert or streets!

How they are not Free when they treated same like wives!?

-----------------------------

Answer these questions please:

1.Is the Quran a book for all time? (Y/N)

Answer; for sure YES!

2. Is Muhammad Uswa Hasana? (Y/N)

Answer: For sure YES!


3. Where does the Quran say slavery is NOT allowed or it should be stopped after <such and such a date>? (It doesn't)

Answer: remember what happened in America!?

Islam is teachings and rules came to us from God who are THE MOST WISE, so First thing were to make people Muslims and by becoming Muslim slavery problem is atumaticaly solved as explained in brief in this thread!

----------------------------

[[Fact is that God forgot to tell his followers that slavery was WRONG. Muhammad's morality is wrong and so is Allah's because they did not prohibit slavery. From what you have said, the Quran appears to be a book upholding the moral standards of the time. Yeah?]]

All those Verses and teachings of Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) about FREE SLAVE, FREE SLAVE, FREE SLAVE, TREAT THEM LIKE YOUR BROTHERS etc... and you still say this!?

Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ash'ari: "The Prophet said, "Give food to the hungry, pay a visit to the sick and release (set free) the one in captivity (by paying his ransom)." (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Food, Meals, Volume 7, Book 65, Number 286)"

They are our Brothers:

Narrated Al-Ma'rur: At Ar-Rabadha I met Abu Dhar who was wearing a cloak, and his slave, too, was wearing a similar one. I asked about the reason for it. He replied, "I abused a person by calling his mother with bad names." The Prophet said to me, 'O Abu Dhar! Did you abuse him by calling his mother with bad names You still have some characteristics of ignorance. Your slaves are your brothers and Allah has put them under your command. So whoever has a brother under his command should feed him of what he eats and dress him of what he wears. Do not ask them (slaves) to do things beyond their capacity (power) and if you do so, then help them.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Belief, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 29)"

Here is thing that even if you have SERVENT in present time you will not do it:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: "When the slave of anyone amongst you prepares food for him and he serves him after having sat close to (and undergoing the hardship of) heat and smoke, he should make him (the slave) sit along with him and make him eat (along with him), and if the food seems to run short, then he should spare some portion for him (from his own share) - (another narrator) Dawud said:" i. e. a morsel or two". 4097. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Oaths (Kitab Al-Aiman), Book 015, Number 4096)"

And Bottom line to close this matter is this verse that Muslims beleive and follow:

"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other. Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well-acquainted. (The Noble Quran, 49:13)"

-------------------------

[[Yes we can, because Islam claim's it's following GOD, and God endorses slavery! We humans now know better than God (if Allah is God).]]

Sorry you blame now God for what Humans made!

------------------------

[[You need to read your Quran. Right hand possessions are your property (including money, land, wives etc...). Can you please SHOW me where the Quran says not to take slaves? Simple, right]]

I read the Holy quran and you will find Right posses mentioned beside wives!!!!

-----------------------

[[Yes of course I've seen this verse. So let's get the sequence of events straight here:

1. Muslims attack a village. They take EVERYONE as captives and take ALL of their property]]

When you draw a picture or make story make it complete please:

What village Muslims attack and WHY!?

----------------------

[[2. The men and boys with pubic hair (old enough) are beheaded.]]

never this happened beheaded only Traitors and those who fought or killed Muslims and this were only during war times!

Other wise bring your Prove and source to what you say!

---------------------

[[3. Muhammad takes 1/5 of the booty (including property, money, land, women, children etc..) for himself.]]

Not let it be 50 % of everything but He died and he didnt have anything except his cloths that he were barried in them!

Not only that But before Islam he were Rich and after he were poor!

And by the way Pagans offered him Money, Power and women etc.... to leave this new religion but he refused and said:

If you put the Sun in my right hand and Moon in left hand to leave this matter (Islam) I will NOT leave it

-------------------
[[4. The REST of the booty is divided up between the Jihadis.]]

same like Pagans did to Muslims, but those booty treated like wives and their children become FREE same like their Mothers!

-------------------

[[5. If one of those slaves WANTS freedom, they have to PAY their (new) master for it. But they cannot because all of their possessions and wealth have JUST BEEN DIVIDED UP and given away to others.]]

I already gave you verse from Holy Quran that tell us to free slave in he asks and also help him with money to help him in his new life, so why you say such thing which were answered and closed already by CLEAR VERSE from QURAN!?

--------------------

[[This is a ridiculous statement from Allah! They can't pay (and hence CANNOT be freed) because they have NOTHING with which to pay their own ransom]]

AGAIN:

Noble Verse 24:33 "Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until God gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which God has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is God, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),"

Your Problem that you didnt understand me when I said that those slaves became like employees and not slaves anymore, and most of slaves didnt want to leave their masters!!

Peace
 
Love25 said:
A lot of source for example man have dept he gives his children as slaves, you can attack village without any reason and take them slaves, anyone can kidnape people and make them as slaves etc.... of things you can read and investigate them from books of History!
Do you know this as fact or are you just repeating hearsay? What I'm asking you for is what evidence that you have that this is the case - simply telling me to 'go read history books'is not good enough.

Love25 said:
better then becoming slave and better then left in desert to die or to streets so she maybe taken as slave or work in prosititution etc.... take in consideration the difference between past times and present!
What? She's still a slave to her captor.

Love25 said:
Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ash'ari: "The Prophet said, "Give food to the hungry, pay a visit to the sick and release (set free) the one in captivity (by paying his ransom)." (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Food, Meals, Volume 7, Book 65, Number 286)"
See the bracketed statements there? They were added by the translator (mushin Khan) and are not in the Arabic text. So it should read:
Volume 7 said:
Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ash'ari:

The Prophet said, "Give food to the hungry, pay a visit to the sick and release the one in captivity."

Love25 said:
God will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths, but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths: for expiation, feed ten indigent persons, on a scale of the average for the food of your families; or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If that is beyond your means, fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths ye have sworn. But keep to your oaths. Thus doth God make clear to you His signs, that ye may be grateful. (The Noble Quran, 5:89)"
So what? It says free some slaves. I'm not saying that Islam NEVER frees slaves - I just don't agree with your interpretation (because there is no evidence). Incidentally, the oath breaking referred to in the above verse was revealed because Muhammad was breaking oaths: Muhammad admits lying and encourages Muslims to do likewise

Love25 said:
"But those who divorce their wives by Zihar, then wish to go back on the words they uttered, (It is ordained that such a one) should free a slave before they touch each other: Thus are ye admonished to perform: and God is well-acquainted with (all) that ye do. (The Noble Quran, 58:3)"
Again so what? You have stated that Muslims must:
(a)Free a slave IF THEY ASK (I have shown this is not the case)
(b)slaves are like employees (still waiting for evidence here)
(c)Slavery was phased out (still waiting for evidence here)

How does the above show ANY of that?

Love25 said:
Narrated Asma: "No doubt the Prophet ordered people to manumit slaves during the solar eclipse. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Eclipses, Volume 2, Book 18, Number 163)"
Read above.

Love25 said:
"'Abdullah b. 'Umar reported that 'Umar b. Khattab asked the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) as he was at ji'rana (a town near Mecca) on his way back from Ta'if: Messenger of Allah, I had taken a vow during the days of Ignorance that I would observe I'tikaf for one day in the Sacred Mosque. So what is your opinion? He said: Go and observe I'tikaf for a day. And Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) gave him a slave girl out of the one-fifth (of the spoils of war meant for the Holy Prophet). And when Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) set the war prisoners free. 'Umar b. Khattab heard their voice as they were saying: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) has set us free. He (Hadrat 'Umar) said: What is this? They said: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) has set free the prisoners of war (which had fallen to the lot of people). Thereupon he (Hadrat 'Umar) said: Abdullah, go to that slave-girl and set her free. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Oaths (Kitab Al-Aiman), Book 015, Number 4074)"
Again read above.


You seem to have lost track with what you are arguing here. Here is what you have stated. It's these that I'm waiting for evidence of:

(a)Free a slave IF THEY ASK (that they must pay a ransom is not good enough because it's not what you stated)
(b)slaves are/are treated like employees
(c)Slavery was phased out
(d)Where the Quran states (c)
 
Love25 said:
Right Posses = wife but it called so becuase they are allowed to have right posses beside Four wives as at those times women were more then men becuase of wars!
No, Right hand possessions because they are your property, like your land, your money, your slaves etc..

Love25 said:
And by the way when Islam came it DECREASED number of wives!
So what? Islam still allows you to have 4 wives and unlimited number of slaves.

Love25 said:
For second part who said that men captives are beheaded!?
You're kidding right? Read this article for a few examples. If you wish more, please let me know and I will compile a large list for you.

Love25 said:
Criminals and killers only are beheaded and this is Subject to Ruler or Judge and due to situation!
A judge like Muhammad? (read above).

Love25 said:
it needs two parties to agree to stop taking captives of the other side as slaves in wars and battles!
Where does the Quran state this? ahadith?

Love25 said:
I dont need evidence to that, it is very known History and way of life at that time!
Yes you do! You stated:
(a)Muslims only take captives because their enemies were doing it.
(b)Muslims don't take captives anymore because no one is taking them captive.

BOTH of these require evidence that in the Jahilliyah they were doing this.

Love25 said:
Khadija (pbuh) were exception like any women from Nobel or rich family in history and women were treated worse then animals at those times!
Evidence please? How can you say Khadija was the 'exception'?

Love25 said:
And since you know well Islam then you would know that when girl is born they used to kill them as it were considered Disgrace and this practice they used to do till Islam came and stopped it!
I agree this claim is made. Whether it be true or not, it cannot have been a widespread practice given the fact that the Arabs survived (if there were so few women around they would have died out). I commend Islam for stopping this practice, but the implication you apologists give when bringing this up is that it was a widespread practice when it wasn't (indeed it could not have been).

Love25 said:
Islam DECREASED number of wives and at those times they didnt have and sexual problems like we have in present times, and How can you compare SLAVE women with women who became FREE and have same right live Wives and their Children became FREE and not born slaves!?
Why do you keep bringing up number of wives? this is completely irrelevant to what we are discussing. I'm pointing out that whether a woman is a man's slave or wife, it doesn't matter because they are still his property, so by giving them their 'freedom' instead of Mahr (dowry) is just a way to get out of paying them the Mahr. It is not freedom at all. The woman cannot choose freedom AWAY from her new husband (captor).

Love25 said:
I see you dont understand what Mahr is
I understand very well what a Mahr is. Please see my articles: Mahr & Dealing Justly with Wives and Orphans. Please no more ad hominem's - just address the issue.

Love25 said:
as start it is something done before marriage
Yes I agree - it is payment for (exclusive) use of the woman's vagina. I know what a Mahr is.

Love25 said:
How they are not Free when they treated same like wives!?
Because they were taken as captives. They are not free because they cannot choose to LEAVE the man - stay as his slave or stay as his wife, it is the same to them.

Love25 said:
Answer; for sure YES!
So if the Quran is a book for all time, where is it written (from God) that slavery should be stopped after <a certain time>?

Love25 said:
Answer: For sure YES!
So if Muhamad is Uswa Hasana, why did he just follow the morals of the day about slavery? Why did he not stand up and say "slavery is wrong" or "after <such and such a time> no more slaves"?

See what I mean? It seems as though the Quran is a book that follows the morals of 7th century Arabia and does not improve life.

Love25 said:
Islam is teachings and rules came to us from God who are THE MOST WISE, so First thing were to make people Muslims and by becoming Muslim slavery problem is atumaticaly solved as explained in brief in this thread!
Again, where does the Quran say "after <certain time> no more slavery"? Since (to my knowledge) there is nowhere in the Islamic texts (Quran or ahadith) that state slavery is NOT OK, it appears as though Allah endorses slavery - so if everyone became Muslim then they would be allowed to keep slaves. Even Muslim slaves (remember Bilal?).

Love25 said:
All those Verses and teachings of Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) about FREE SLAVE, FREE SLAVE, FREE SLAVE, TREAT THEM LIKE YOUR BROTHERS etc... and you still say this!?
It doesn't say you cannot keep slaves - it says free them if you wish. If you don't wish or 'it would be hardship' then don't free them.

Love25 said:
Narrated Al-Ma'rur: At Ar-Rabadha I met Abu Dhar who was wearing a cloak, and his slave, too, was wearing a similar one. I asked about the reason for it. He replied, "I abused a person by calling his mother with bad names." The Prophet said to me, 'O Abu Dhar! Did you abuse him by calling his mother with bad names You still have some characteristics of ignorance. Your slaves are your brothers and Allah has put them under your command. So whoever has a brother under his command should feed him of what he eats and dress him of what he wears. Do not ask them (slaves) to do things beyond their capacity (power) and if you do so, then help them.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Belief, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 29)"
So? Muslims are allowed to be taken as slaves (or kept as slaves). Remember Bilal? That means they *are* your brother in Islam. The above does not refer to non-Muslim slaves (as shown by the qualifier "your brother"). So it's saying "treat Muslim slaves like yourself". So what? It doesn't say "don't keep slaves"

Love25 said:
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: "When the slave of anyone amongst you prepares food for him and he serves him after having sat close to (and undergoing the hardship of) heat and smoke, he should make him (the slave) sit along with him and make him eat (along with him), and if the food seems to run short, then he should spare some portion for him (from his own share) - (another narrator) Dawud said:" i. e. a morsel or two". 4097. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Oaths (Kitab Al-Aiman), Book 015, Number 4096)"
Again, how does this show that slavery is not allowed, or should be abolished after a certain time?

Love25 said:
"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other. Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well-acquainted. (The Noble Quran, 49:13)"
This has nothing to do with slavery.

Love25 said:
Sorry you blame now God for what Humans made!
Did you just say the Quran was made by Humans?

Love25 said:
I read the Holy quran and you will find Right posses mentioned beside wives!!!!
Agreed, but wives are included.

Love25 said:
And by the way Pagans offered him Money, Power and women etc.... to leave this new religion but he refused and said:

If you put the Sun in my right hand and Moon in left hand to leave this matter (Islam) I will NOT leave it
No, he initially accepted the Qurayash Bargain but then changed his mind. This is evidenced by the "Satanic verses" in the Quran. Muhammad ACCEPTED their deal (to worship their gods for a year, and then worship Allah for a year, so on and so forth) so "Allah" 'revealed' the Satanic verses, in which Manat, Lat and Uzza were named as intercessors to Allah.

But then Muhammad changed his mind (he wanted it all for himself) so he had to fix the problem and declared that the previous verses had been inspired by Satan.

Love25 said:
Quoting the verse again wont make you right.

Love25 said:
Your Problem that you didnt understand me when I said that those slaves became like employees and not slaves anymore, and most of slaves didnt want to leave their masters!!
No I understand what meant, but the evidence does not sit on your side. Can you please show that slaves were treated like employees!
 
Do you know this as fact or are you just repeating hearsay? What I'm asking you for is what evidence that you have that this is the case - simply telling me to 'go read history books'is not good enough.
Love25 said:
Prophet says :


“Three types of people will stand apart on the day of Resurrection as My enemies - and an enemy of Mine will be doomed; a man who vowed in My name then betrayed, a man who sold a free person as a slave and appropriated his price, and a man who employed a worker and had him do the assigned work then failed to pay him his wages.".


The Prophet, peace and blessings of God be on him, says :


“ Three types of people will not have rewards for their prayer : a man who forces himself as an imam, a man who postpones prayer until its time is out and a man who enslaves a free person.â€Â



Why dont you read book of Hadith Bukhari number 46 about Manumission of Slaves!

In Islam:

If You Break an Oath: Free a Slave
If You Kill a Believer: Free a Slave
To Take Back Lawful Wife: First, Free a Slave
Slaves Are To Be Treated Like Brothers
If they ask freedom you give it to them
etc......

-------------------------
[[What? She's still a slave to her captor.]]

in Islam it is forbiden to use the word slave with any slaves whether they are women or men, before islam those women were treated same like animals or third class or as filth and with islam they became wives and have same rights and become free and their children free!
------------------------

[[So what? It says free some slaves. I'm not saying that Islam NEVER frees slaves - I just don't agree with your interpretation (because there is no evidence). Incidentally, the oath breaking referred to in the above verse was revealed because Muhammad was breaking oaths: Muhammad admits lying and encourages Muslims to do likewise]]

Read Hadith book of Bukhari number 46 for EXAMPLE and you will find a lot of Hadith of Freeing and how to treat Slaves, but those Hadith are not the end of sources about this matter!

-------------------------

[[Again so what? You have stated that Muslims must:
(a)Free a slave IF THEY ASK (I have shown this is not the case)]]

Verse 24:33 from Quran read it in Arabic or any translation you want, it is very clear about that!

---------------------------

(b)slaves are like employees (still waiting for evidence here)

1/ Giving them the same food and clothing as taken by their masters

Abu Dawood reports on the authority of Al-Ma'roor bin Suwaid that he said : "We entered Abu Thar's house at Al-Ribthah [7] and found him dressed in a garment called 'burd', and found his slave dressed in an identical 'burd'. So we said : ' Why don't you, 0 Abu Thar, wear that 'burd' of your slaves so that you may have a full suit, and give him instead a less sumptuous garment ?' He replied : 'I heard the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings of God be upon him say :


" Those slaves are your brothers, only God gave you an upper hand over them. So let that who has his brother (i.e. slave) under him give him the same food he himself eats, and the same clothing as he himself wears. The master may not give his brother a task that is beyond his ability. If he does give him such task, let him lend him a hand.".


2/ Recognizing their dignity

Abu Hurairah narrates that the Prophet of Repentance (i.e. Prophet Muhammad) said :


" Any one who slanders his slave with adultery, and it is a false charge, will receive on the Day of Resurrection the same punishment his slave would have received in the world had the charge been true."


Abdul-Lah bin 'Umar freed a slave of his then picked a twig from the ground and said:


" I shall not receive for freeing him the worth of this in the Hereafter. I heard the Messenger of Allah say : ' If a man hits or beats his slave, his atonement is the freeing of that slave."[9]


3/ A slave is given the lead in religious or mundane matters which he is skilful at.

He can be imam (i.e. to lead the prayer). Aishah had a slave who led her prayer. The believers are even ordered to heed and obey if a slave becomes their ruler, so long as he proves to be better qualified than others.

Freedom is man's natural right. No one may be deprived of this right except for an exceptional reason. Although Islam recognizes slavery within the limits we have explained, it strictly warned those who have the upper hand of freedom against manipulating their position for cruel ends. Beyond that, we assert that it is justified to hold a person who falls captive as a result of his aggression, but it is necessary to treat him nicely.

If someone does fall a captive and becomes a slave, then shows signs of repentance, gives up his old way of life, forsakes the way of evil and follows a well-guided life, such a person should be set free : Islam favours such response to a slave's conduct. Some Islamic jurists enjoin freeing him and other recommend it !

The Prophet, peace and blessings of God be on him, again and again ordered kindness to the slaves. For instance, when the captives taken in the Battle of Badr were distributed he directed : "Be kind to your captives."

Uthman bin 'Affan once punished a slave of his by pinching his ear-lobe. But he told him later : " come and pinch my ear." And when the slave would not do, he insisted. So the slave proceeded to pinch Uthman's ear lightly, but Uthman said : "pinch more painfully, I have no endurance for punishment on the Day of Resurrection." "Well Sir," rejoined the slave, "the day you fear I fear, too."

When Abdul-Rahman bin 'Awf walked in the company of his slaves, people would not know who is master and who is slave - nor did he have smarter clothing.

'Umar bin Al-Khattab once walked in Makkah and saw some slaves standing aside waiting, while their master ate. He was angry at this and inquired of the master :


"Why do some masters regard themselves as superior to their slaves ? "


Then he ordered the slaves to advance and eat.

A man once entered the house of Salman, may God be pleased with him, and saw him kneading his dough. "What are you doing, Abu 'Abdullah[10]? " " I have sent my servant on an errand, " he answered. " So I didn't like to give him some more work." This is some of what Islam did for slaves !

------------------------------

[[You seem to have lost track with what you are arguing here. Here is what you have stated. It's these that I'm waiting for evidence of:

(a)Free a slave IF THEY ASK (that they must pay a ransom is not good enough because it's not what you stated)
(b)slaves are/are treated like employees
(c)Slavery was phased out
(d)Where the Quran states (c)]]

You are right I have lost track as too much Hadiths and Verses that talks about Freeing slaves and how to treat them and what are sources of slavery, for example Read the Book 46 from hadith Bukhari it is part of what is said about slaves!

Concerning verse 24:33:

[024:033] Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until God gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which God has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is God, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),

This verse talks to Religious people who follow God's words and it says the slave can ask freedom and pay for it, right!?

Do you think if slave in ISLAM cannot pay for his freedom this verse would be send to us!?

I gave you Book from Bukhari although reading Hadith needs knwolegde of hadith, beside I gave you a lot of other Hadiths and verses from Quran that give us the whole picture in very clear and direct way!

Peace
 
Love25 said:
Prophet says :


“Three types of people will stand apart on the day of Resurrection as My enemies - and an enemy of Mine will be doomed; a man who vowed in My name then betrayed, a man who sold a free person as a slave and appropriated his price, and a man who employed a worker and had him do the assigned work then failed to pay him his wages.".
So? As you have stated, Islamically justified wars entitle you to take captives and these people are then slaves (thus not free because they were captured). How does this show slavery is not allowed?

Love25 said:
Why dont you read book of Hadith Bukhari number 46 about Manumission of Slaves!
I've read it numerous times. link

Love25" said:
If You Break an Oath: Free a Slave
If You Kill a Believer: Free a Slave
To Take Back Lawful Wife: First, Free a Slave
Slaves Are To Be Treated Like Brothers
If they ask freedom you give it to them
etc......
All of the above are optional except for the last one which I have thoroughly debunked and none state that slavery is not allowed or phased out.

Love25 said:
in Islam it is forbiden to use the word slave with any slaves whether they are women or men
Excuse me? What does Abd mean? Also can you source your claim that it's forbidden to do so? (a hadith is fine)

Love25 said:
, before islam those women were treated same like animals or third class or as filth and with islam they became wives and have same rights and become free and their children free!
Again you need to provide evidence that this was the case (before Islam).

Love25 said:
Read Hadith book of Bukhari number 46 for EXAMPLE and you will find a lot of Hadith of Freeing and how to treat Slaves, but those Hadith are not the end of sources about this matter!
As stated I have read it numerous times. However, YOU made the claim, so don't tel me to go find my own evidence. If you make a claim you must back it up.

Love25 said:
Verse 24:33 from Quran read it in Arabic or any translation you want, it is very clear about that!
I've already explained it to you indepth.

Love25 said:
1/ Giving them the same food and clothing as taken by their masters

<snip>
Employees get paid.

Love25 said:
This verse talks to Religious people who follow God's words and it says the slave can ask freedom and pay for it, right!?
No, that bolded part says AFTER you have freed them (after they've paid their ransom if they can find money after you took it all) THEN you *can* (if you want) give them something to start a new life but you don't HAVE to.

Love25 said:
Do you think if slave in ISLAM cannot pay for his freedom this verse would be send to us!?
Yes. This verse was 'revealed' for two different situations:

1. Muhammad caught Juwairiyya bint Harith's tribe, and she said she would willingly marry him but in return, he should let her family go and give them back their possessions. Muhammad wanted to marry her, but at the time she was a 'right hand possession' of another Muslim man - so, in return for marrying her, he let her family go with their property and he got the girl!

That is what the first half of the verse was 'revealed' about - Muhammad 'found good' in Juwairiyya (he lusted after her) and agreed to the deal!

2. The second part is irrelevant to the slavery issue and wont be discussed here.

Love25 said:
I gave you Book from Bukhari although reading Hadith needs knwolegde of hadith
I have knowledge of ahadith. What would you like to discuss?

Love25 said:
, beside I gave you a lot of other Hadiths and verses from Quran that give us the whole picture in very clear and direct way!
Yes, but you have not provided evidence for that which you have claimed.
 
[[So? As you have stated, Islamically justified wars entitle you to take captives and these people are then slaves (thus not free because they were captured). How does this show slavery is not allowed?]]

And if our enemy stops taking our captured people as slaves then we will also stop taking their people as slaves as I said it needs two parties to agree about it!

Beside that Slaves in Islam at those times were like employees even better:

Prophet (PBUH) is reported to have said,

"They are your brothers (the slaves and servants). Allah has placed them under your authority. So he who has a brother under him should feed him and clothe him as he himself does, and should not take from him any work that is beyond his power. If he does tell him to do such work then he should also join in it - (and help him)."


Notice important thing and that we Muslims follow Quran and Hadith so when it says hundreds of times FREE SLAVES, TREAT Them well and also shows us how to do so and give us examples we as people who follow God's words will do so!

Also notice that in Islam as I already gave you verse from Quran all humans are equal and the difference is by our Faith only in front of God, and we all SLAVES only to our CREATOR!

------------------------

[[I've read it numerous times. link]]

Good and there is other Hadiths as well.

-------------------------

[[All of the above are optional except for the last one which I have thoroughly debunked and none state that slavery is not allowed or phased out.]]

This were already answered, Non Muslim civlizations at those times were built on slavery and world wide economies depended on that so stoping it directly would make huge confusion in everything even for slaves themseleves who all his life were slave then he have to depend on himself from below zero!

There is a lot of things you dont take in consideration concerning how people lived at those times, and I can tell you that in some period of time slavery were must becuase in this system poor, orphans, women, weak people find protection and way of living but the problem is how people followed that!

----------------------------------

[[Excuse me? What does Abd mean? Also can you source your claim that it's forbidden to do so? (a hadith is fine)]]

I guess you didnt notice this Hadith:

Volume 3, Book 46, Number 728:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "You should not say, 'Feed your lord (Rabbaka), help your lord in performing ablution, or give water to your lord, but should say, 'my master (e.g. Feed your master instead of lord etc.) (Saiyidi), or my guardian (Maulai), and one should not say, my slave (Abdi), or my girl-slave (Amati), but should say, my lad (Fatai), my lass (Fatati), and 'my boy (Ghulami)."

-----------------------------------

[[Again you need to provide evidence that this was the case (before Islam).]]

Those Hadiths are prove of that becuase if you read Hadith you would understand how they treated slaves before what prophet Mohamed (pbuh) teached and said in hundreds of Hadiths that talks about Slaves freedom and rights!

--------------------------

[[As stated I have read it numerous times. However, YOU made the claim, so don't tel me to go find my own evidence. If you make a claim you must back it up.]]

I just proved above that you missed one of Hadiths!

Reading them is one thing but understanding and remembering then is another thing!

---------------------

[[No, that bolded part says AFTER you have freed them (after they've paid their ransom if they can find money after you took it all) THEN you *can* (if you want) give them something to start a new life but you don't HAVE to.]]

If you dont fast one day in Ramadan you free slave!
If you make Oath and dont do it you free slave!
etc......

While you stopped on the above one, again Hadith and Holy Quran are for MUSLIMS who follow them and we take them all as we dont choose this Hadith and leave this one, so you should get the WHOLE picture!

---------------------------------


[[Yes. This verse was 'revealed' for two different situations:]]

This verse says clearly that Master helps the slave from His money!!

[[1. Muhammad caught Juwairiyya bint Harith's tribe, and she said she would willingly marry him but in return, he should let her family go and give them back their possessions. Muhammad wanted to marry her, but at the time she was a 'right hand possession' of another Muslim man - so, in return for marrying her, he let her family go with their property and he got the girl!

That is what the first half of the verse was 'revealed' about - Muhammad 'found good' in Juwairiyya (he lusted after her) and agreed to the deal!]]

First what you wrote dont make any logic or sense or any concection with the verse, who invented this explanation!?

-------------------------

[[I have knowledge of ahadith. What would you like to discuss?]]

You have Knwolegde of Hadith!? :)

Tell me about your knowlegde what you studied and your Idea about science of hadith, and most important how many years you studied hadith and who were your Teachers!?

-------------------------

Lets review the verse again:

[024:033] And let those who cannot find a match keep chaste till Allah give them independence by His grace. And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation), write it for them if ye are aware of aught of good in them, and bestow upon them of the wealth of Allah which He hath bestowed upon you. Force not your slave-girls to whoredom that ye may seek enjoyment of the life of the world, if they would preserve their chastity. And if one force them, then (unto them), after their compulsion, lo! Allah will be Forgiving, Merciful.

Nothing of what you said concerning first part, and second Part talks only about Slaves!!

Peace
 
Love25 said:
Notice important thing and that we Muslims follow Quran and Hadith so when it says hundreds of times FREE SLAVES, TREAT Them well and also shows us how to do so and give us examples we as people who follow God's words will do so!
I agree that your texts say you can free slaves. However there is nowhere that it says don't take slaves in the first place! And it doesn't say free ALL your slaves - just free them as you see fit. That's my whole point. I do not agree that there is anywhere that says you can take slaves, but must stop if your enemy stops taking slaves.

Love25 said:
Also notice that in Islam as I already gave you verse from Quran all humans are equal and the difference is by our Faith only in front of God, and we all SLAVES only to our CREATOR!
I do not agree with the verse you provided along with your interpretation. However I do agree that in Islam, all people are slaves to Allah.

Love25 said:
This were already answered, Non Muslim civlizations at those times were built on slavery and world wide economies depended on that so stoping it directly would make huge confusion in everything even for slaves themseleves who all his life were slave then he have to depend on himself from below zero!
This is not true! They were not built in slavery. The jahilliyah was not built on slavery! Where is your evidence for this?

Love25 said:
There is a lot of things you dont take in consideration concerning how people lived at those times, and I can tell you that in some period of time slavery were must becuase in this system poor, orphans, women, weak people find protection and way of living but the problem is how people followed that!
No, you are ignoring the status of women prior to Islam. I have already presented you with evidence from your own texts (Khadijah) and you have yet to show me evidence showing she was the exception to the rule (as you have stated).

Love25 said:
Volume 3, Book 46, Number 728:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "You should not say, 'Feed your lord (Rabbaka), help your lord in performing ablution, or give water to your lord, but should say, 'my master (e.g. Feed your master instead of lord etc.) (Saiyidi), or my guardian (Maulai), and one should not say, my slave (Abdi), or my girl-slave (Amati), but should say, my lad (Fatai), my lass (Fatati), and 'my boy (Ghulami)."
So? By stating you should not use the word 'abd' it means they are not slaves? LOL.

Love25 said:
Those Hadiths are prove of that becuase if you read Hadith you would understand how they treated slaves before what prophet Mohamed (pbuh) teached and said in hundreds of Hadiths that talks about Slaves freedom and rights!
You have yet to show that pre-Islamic arabia (the Jahilliyah) was like this! Instead you keep claiming that I am just ignorant or deliberately ignoring evidence!

Love25 said:
If you dont fast one day in Ramadan you free slave!
If you make Oath and dont do it you free slave!
etc......
So what? This is not obligatory and it does not say "free all your slaves" so again as I stated, IF you want to make up your day of fasting, then you *can* free a slave (if you wish and if it will not cause you hardship) nor is this an injunction against slavery.

Love25 said:
While you stopped on the above one, again Hadith and Holy Quran are for MUSLIMS who follow them and we take them all as we dont choose this Hadith and leave this one, so you should get the WHOLE picture!
Actually in my 3 years of studying Islam and debating Muslims, I find this is NOT the case - Muslims generally cherry pick among the ahadith and follow what they feel comfortable and delcare the ones that they don't like to be "unauthentic" (sahih or not). However I agree, pending examination by experts, Muslims SHOULD follow all narrations that are Sahih (and mutawatir) unless they can demonstrate that they fail Bukhari's criteria.

Love25 said:
This verse says clearly that Master helps the slave from His money!!
Yes but there is a caveat there - IF he 'finds good in him' so again it's up to the slave owner's own judgement. It is not fard - ie. it doesn't say "you MUST give slaves that you set free money so they can start a new life". See?

Love25 said:
First what you wrote dont make any logic or sense or any concection with the verse, who invented this explanation!?
it is in the ahadith. You know the story of Juwairiyya right?

Love25 said:
Tell me about your knowlegde what you studied and your Idea about science of hadith, and most important how many years you studied hadith and who were your Teachers!?
Ah! You are looking for a reason to discard what I am saying! Well first off, I do not agree that it should be called "science" of the ahadith, it is more accurate to label it 'history'. If you wish to discard a sahih narration then you must address Bukhari's criteira (isnad, 'adl & mat'n) as well as other classifications given to rank ahadith in order to authenticitiy (mutawatir is my fave). However again, I find that many Muslims are not willing to live by these rules - ie. regarding the age of Aisha - these narrations where she says she was 6 & 9 when married/consummated with Muhammad was Sahih, mutawatir and recorded across collections (sunni & shia) but I find Muslims who discard ALL of them regardless because they do not feel comfortable with them. I am perfectly happy to play by Muslims rules regarding ahadith but I find many of them are not!
 
Sanitarium said:
Love25 said:
Notice important thing and that we Muslims follow Quran and Hadith so when it says hundreds of times FREE SLAVES, TREAT Them well and also shows us how to do so and give us examples we as people who follow God's words will do so!
I agree that your texts say you can free slaves. However there is nowhere that it says don't take slaves in the first place! And it doesn't say free ALL your slaves - just free them as you see fit. That's my whole point. I do not agree that there is anywhere that says you can take slaves, but must stop if your enemy stops taking slaves.

Love25 said:
Also notice that in Islam as I already gave you verse from Quran all humans are equal and the difference is by our Faith only in front of God, and we all SLAVES only to our CREATOR!
I do not agree with the verse you provided along with your interpretation. However I do agree that in Islam, all people are slaves to Allah.

Love25 said:
This were already answered, Non Muslim civlizations at those times were built on slavery and world wide economies depended on that so stoping it directly would make huge confusion in everything even for slaves themseleves who all his life were slave then he have to depend on himself from below zero!
This is not true! They were not built in slavery. The jahilliyah was not built on slavery! Where is your evidence for this?

Love25 said:
There is a lot of things you dont take in consideration concerning how people lived at those times, and I can tell you that in some period of time slavery were must becuase in this system poor, orphans, women, weak people find protection and way of living but the problem is how people followed that!
No, you are ignoring the status of women prior to Islam. I have already presented you with evidence from your own texts (Khadijah) and you have yet to show me evidence showing she was the exception to the rule (as you have stated).

Love25 said:
Volume 3, Book 46, Number 728:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, "You should not say, 'Feed your lord (Rabbaka), help your lord in performing ablution, or give water to your lord, but should say, 'my master (e.g. Feed your master instead of lord etc.) (Saiyidi), or my guardian (Maulai), and one should not say, my slave (Abdi), or my girl-slave (Amati), but should say, my lad (Fatai), my lass (Fatati), and 'my boy (Ghulami)."
So? By stating you should not use the word 'abd' it means they are not slaves? LOL.

Love25 said:
Those Hadiths are prove of that becuase if you read Hadith you would understand how they treated slaves before what prophet Mohamed (pbuh) teached and said in hundreds of Hadiths that talks about Slaves freedom and rights!
You have yet to show that pre-Islamic arabia (the Jahilliyah) was like this! Instead you keep claiming that I am just ignorant or deliberately ignoring evidence!

Love25 said:
If you dont fast one day in Ramadan you free slave!
If you make Oath and dont do it you free slave!
etc......
So what? This is not obligatory and it does not say "free all your slaves" so again as I stated, IF you want to make up your day of fasting, then you *can* free a slave (if you wish and if it will not cause you hardship) nor is this an injunction against slavery.

Love25 said:
While you stopped on the above one, again Hadith and Holy Quran are for MUSLIMS who follow them and we take them all as we dont choose this Hadith and leave this one, so you should get the WHOLE picture!
Actually in my 3 years of studying Islam and debating Muslims, I find this is NOT the case - Muslims generally cherry pick among the ahadith and follow what they feel comfortable and delcare the ones that they don't like to be "unauthentic" (sahih or not). However I agree, pending examination by experts, Muslims SHOULD follow all narrations that are Sahih (and mutawatir) unless they can demonstrate that they fail Bukhari's criteria.

Love25 said:
This verse says clearly that Master helps the slave from His money!!
Yes but there is a caveat there - IF he 'finds good in him' so again it's up to the slave owner's own judgement. It is not fard - ie. it doesn't say "you MUST give slaves that you set free money so they can start a new life". See?

Love25 said:
First what you wrote dont make any logic or sense or any concection with the verse, who invented this explanation!?
it is in the ahadith. You know the story of Juwairiyya right?

Love25 said:
Tell me about your knowlegde what you studied and your Idea about science of hadith, and most important how many years you studied hadith and who were your Teachers!?
Ah! You are looking for a reason to discard what I am saying! Well first off, I do not agree that it should be called "science" of the ahadith, it is more accurate to label it 'history'. If you wish to discard a sahih narration then you must address Bukhari's criteira (isnad, 'adl & mat'n) as well as other classifications given to rank ahadith in order to authenticitiy (mutawatir is my fave). However again, I find that many Muslims are not willing to live by these rules - ie. regarding the age of Aisha - these narrations where she says she was 6 & 9 when married/consummated with Muhammad was Sahih, mutawatir and recorded across collections (sunni & shia) but I find Muslims who discard ALL of them regardless because they do not feel comfortable with them. I am perfectly happy to play by Muslims rules regarding ahadith but I find many of them are not!

Verses from Quran and Hadith were given and I see you agree about what they say!

You say my interpetation and I say those are not mine and the Source for what I say is the Hadith and verses that you agree about them!

There is whole civilizations that were built on slavery and word wide economy depended on it!

You now want me to tell you about statues of women before Islam in Pagan Arab community although I said that Hadith shows how it were and how it became, anyway why dont you open Thread about this subject so that we can discuss it!

I see you bring Age of Aisha as something that you love to PLAY with Muslims about, and you say that this is something that Muslims dont like to follow in their life and I say to you, but actualy this subject is my favourite becuase when I begin to talk about it I dont find answers from other side Always for one reason or another!

for sure this can be good thing that you can PLAY with Muslims who have little knowlegde and for non Muslims who know nothing about ISLAM but not with person who knows very well all what others use to attack islam with and knows christinaity as well!

So you can also open this subject in separate thread and i will be glade to EXPLAIN not PLAY becuase I didnt come here to PLAY!

May Allah (swt) guide you!

Peace
 
Love25 said:
Verses from Quran and Hadith were given and I see you agree about what they say!
No, I have made clear in my previous post about what I agree about and what I disagree about. Please stop making errant assumptions.

Love25 said:
You say my interpetation and I say those are not mine and the Source for what I say is the Hadith and verses that you agree about them!
No, read above.

Love25 said:
There is whole civilizations that were built on slavery and word wide economy depended on it!
yes, I agree that there were civilizations like this, but it has been shown it was this way. You can't automatically say "Oh the Jahilliyah was like that too" though you need to show that it was the case.

Love25 said:
You now want me to tell you about statues of women before Islam in Pagan Arab community although I said that Hadith shows how it were and how it became, anyway why dont you open Thread about this subject so that we can discuss it!
Sure! Will do.

Love25 said:
I see you bring Age of Aisha as something that you love to PLAY with Muslims about, and you say that this is something that Muslims dont like to follow in their life and I say to you, but actualy this subject is my favourite becuase when I begin to talk about it I dont find answers from other side Always for one reason or another!
What do you mean? I don't 'play' with anything - I am interested in what the texts say. I do not omit information because I do not have any pre-conceived conclusions.

Love25 said:
for sure this can be good thing that you can PLAY with Muslims who have little knowlegde and for non Muslims who know nothing about ISLAM but not with person who knows very well all what others use to attack islam with and knows christinaity as well!
I am an Atheist - I don't care what you know or do not know about Christianity. Furthermore, pointing to Christianity and saying "it's just as bad (or worse!)" is a logical fallacy called "Tu Quoque" (You too!). It serves no purpose in a discussion about whether Islam is right.
 
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