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Elijah Message, During the Great Tribulation

J

Jay T

Guest
Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD"

OK, so there is no mistaking when the 'great and dreadful day of the Lord' is......
I'll give my opinion as to what I think it is.

Using the words: 'great and dreadful'...to me is the JUDGMENT DAY of God (as in His 2nd Coming).
GREAT.....Because, that is the time Jesus Christ will come in all the glory of heaven !!!

Millions of angels, surrounding Him as He comes, each angel shining with brightness, which human eyes cannot withstand.

Noise, as human ears have never heard before !

Great...because of the joy of those who longed for His return.


DREADFUL.....to those who have rejected Jesus Christ and his offer of salvation.
They will be destroyed by the brightness of His coming (2 Thess. 2:8).
There is no...2nd chance for them !


BUT...lets' back to the time before all that happens.

The Elijah message of the Great Triulation will be basicly the same as was issued by Elijah, in his day and time period.

It hinged around the commandments of God, calling men to come back to the true worship of God (as also told in Revelation chapter 14).

The Mark of the Beast has to do with worship, which violates God's commandments...as scripture reveals (Revelation chapters 13 & 14).

The parallels between the experience of Elijah, and the soon-coming Great Triulation is apparent, as one studies the Life of Elijah.

If one wishes to understand what is to come, one has only to what has happened in the past...as history repeats itself, as it often does.


 
Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD"

OK, so there is no mistaking when the 'great and dreadful day of the Lord' is......


You are right, there is no question as to when the day of the Lord would be. Jesus even tells us who this Elijah is:

Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

The day of the Lord was the destruction of Jerusalem and judgement on the unbelieving Jews in AD70.[/quote]
 
Since the Book of Revelation wasn't written until after the Fall of Jerusalem , and since Israel wasn't deleviered but instead dispersed, any preterist view of the Book of Revelation has no merit.
 
Since the Book of Revelation wasn't written until after the Fall of Jerusalem

What is your proof, Scofield study notes?

Was John the Baptist Elijah or was Jesus wrong?
 
preterist said:
Since the Book of Revelation wasn't written until after the Fall of Jerusalem

What is your proof, Scofield study notes?

Was John the Baptist Elijah or was Jesus wrong?

Not just Schofeild, just about ALL Biblical scholars now beleive Revelations wasn't written until 95 AD.

As far as your Elijah comment, you DO realize Matthew 17:12 occurs RIGHT AFTER Elijah appeared at the Transfiguration, don't you? :roll:
 
Not just Schofeild, just about ALL Biblical scholars now beleive Revelations wasn't written until 95 AD.

You really need to study.

1.It’s Revelation, not Revelations
2.Here are just a few of the growing number of scholars who hold to the early date:


Philip Schaff (1877)
"On two points I have changed my opinion -- the second Roman captivity of Paul (which I am disposed to admit in the interest of the Pastoral Epistles), and the date of the Apocalypse (which I now assign, with the majority of modern critics, to the year 68 or 69 instead of 95, as before)." (Vol. I, Preface to the Revised Edition, 1882 The History of the Christian Church, volume 1)
"The early date [of Revelation] is now accepted by perhaps the majority of scholars." (Encyclopedia 3:2036.)

Clement of Alexandria (150-215)
"For the teaching of our Lord at His advent, beginning with Augustus and Tiberius, was completed in the middle of the times of Tiberius. And that of the apostles, embracing the ministry of Paul, end with Nero." (Miscellanies 7:17.)

Arethas
(On Revelation 7:4) "When the Evangelist received these oracles, the destruction in which the Jews were involved was not yet inflicted by the Romans."

F.W. Farrar (1886)
"there can be no reasonable doubt respecting the (early) date of the Apocalypse." (The Early Days of Christianity; NY, NY: A.L. Burt, 1884; p. 387)


Arthur Cushman McGiffert (1890)
"internal evidence has driven most modern scholars to the conclusion that the Apocalypse must have been written before the destruction of Jerusalem, the banishment therefore taking place under Nero instead of Domitian." (Eusebius, Church History, Book III, ch.5. Eusebius notes, 148, footnote 1.)

Mutorian Canon (2nd C.)
"“the blessed apostle Paul himself, following the manner of his predecessor John, wrote in like manner to seven churches expressly by name.â€Â

N.I.V. Study Bible (1923)
"Revelation was written when Christians were entering a time of persecution. The two periods most often mentioned are the latter part of Nero's reign (A.D.54-68) and the latter part of Dominian's reign (81-96).

R.C. Sproul (1998)
"If the book of Revelation was written after the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, it seems strange that John would be silent about these cataclysmic events. Granted this is an argument from silence, but the silence is deafening. Not only does Revelation not mention the temple's destruction as a past event, it frequently refers to the temple as still standing. This is seen clearly in Revelation 11 ...Gentry gives impressive evidence to support this conclusion." (Last Days, pp.147-149)

Moses Stuart (1845)
"The testimony in respect to the matter before us is evidently successive and dependent, not coetaneous and independent. . (1:282. 81)
"If now the number of the witnesses were the only thing which should control our judgment in relation to the question proposed, we must, so far as external evidence is concerned, yield the palm to those who fix upon the time of Domitian. But a careful examination of this matter shows, that the whole concatenation of witnesses in favour of this position hangs upon the testimony of Irenaeus, and their evidence is little more than a mere repetition of what he has said. Eusebius and Jerome most plainly depend on him; and others seem to have had in view his authority, or else that of Eusebius." (Ibid. 2:269..)
"I say this, with full recognition of the weight and value of Irenaeus’s testimony, as to any matters of fact with which he was acquainted, or as to the common tradition of the churches. But in view of what Origen has said. . . , how can we well suppose, that the opinion of Irenaeus, as recorded in Cont. Haeres, V. 30 was formed in any other way, than by his own interpretation of Rev. 1:9. (1:281)
"Now it strikes me, that Tertullian plainly means to class Peter, Paul, and John together, as having suffered at nearly the same time and under the same emperor. I concede that this is not a construction absolutely necessary; but I submit it to the candid, whether it is not the most probable." (1 :284n.)
"It seems indisputably clear that the book of Revelation must be dated in the reign of Nero Caesar, and consequently before his death in June, A.D. 68. He is the sixth king; the short-lived rule of the seventh king (Galba) "has not yet come." (2:324)
â€ÂA majority of the older critics have been inclined to adopt the opinion of Irenaeus, viz., that it was written during the reign of Domitian, i.e., during the last part of the first century, or in A.D.95 or 96. Most of the recent commentators and critics have called this opinion in question, and placed the composition of the book at an earlier period, viz., before the destruction of Jerusalem.†(A Commentary on the Apocalypse, 2 vols; Andover, MD: Allen, Morrill, and Wardwell, 1845; p. 1:263)
“The manner of the declaration here seems to decide, beyond all reasonable appeal, against a later period than about A.D.67 or 68, for the composition of the Apocalypse.†(A Commentary on the Apocalypse, 2 vols; Andover, MD: Allen, Morrill, and Wardwell, 1845; p. 2:326)

Milton Terry (1898)
"the trend of modem criticism is unmistakably toward the adoption of the early date of the Apocalypse." (p. 241n.)
"It is therefore not to be supposed that the language, or style of thought, or type of doctrine must needs resemble those of other production of the same author .. the difference of language is further accounted for by the supposition that the apocalypse was written by the apostle at an early period of his ministry, and the gospel and epistles some thirty or forty years later." (Biblical Apocalyptics, p. 255)
"A fair weighing of the arguments thus far adduced shows that they all excepting the statement of Irenaeus, favor the early rather than later date. The facts appealed to indicate the times before rather than after the destruction of Jerusalem." (ibid.,258)
Now, there is no contention that Galatians and Hebrews were written before the destruction of Jerusalem, and, to say the least, the most natural explanation of the allusions referred to is to suppose that the Apocalypse was already written, and that Paul and many others of his day were familiar with its contents. Writers who cite passages from the apostolic fathers to prove the priority of the gospel of John are the last persons in the world who should presume to dispute the obvious priority of the Apocalypse of John to Galatians and Hebrews. For in no case are the alleged quotations of Gospel more notable or striking than these allusions to the Apocalypse in the New Testament epistles." (ibid.,260)
“The verb was seen is ambiguous and may be either it, referring to the Apocalypse, or he, referring to John himself.†(Biblical Hermeneutics, p. 238)

B.F. Westcott (1825-1903)
"The irregularities of style in the Apocalypse appear to be due not so much to ignorance of the language as to a free treatment of it, by one who used it as a foreign dialect. Nor is it difficult to see that in any case intercourse with a Greek-speaking people would in a short time naturally reduce the style of the author of the Apocalypse to that of the author of the Gospel. It is, however, very difficult to suppose that the language of the writer of the Gospel could pass at a later time in a Greek-speaking country into the language of the Apocalypse. . . .
"Of the two books the Apocalypse is the earlier. It is less developed both in thought and style. The material imagery in which it is composed includes the idea of progress in interpretation. . . .
"The Apocalypse is after the close of St. Paul’s work. It shows in its mode of dealing with Old Testament figures a close connexion with the Epistle to the Hebrews (2 Peter, Jude). And on the other hand it is before the destruction of Jerusalem." (Brooke Foss Westcott, The Gospel According to St. John (Grand Rapids: Baker, [1908] 1980), pp. clxxiv-clxxv.)

J. A. T. Robinson (1976)
"It is indeed generally agreed that this passage must bespeak a pre-70 situation. . . . There seems therefore no reason why the oracle should not have been uttered by a Christian prophet as the doom of the city drew nigh." (Redating the New Testament pp.. 240-242).
"It was at this point that I began to ask myself just why any of the books of the New Testament needed to be put after the fall of Jerusalem in 70. As one began to look at them, and in particular the epistle to the Hebrews, Acts and the Apocalypse, was it not strange that this cataclysmic event was never once mentioned or apparently hinted at (as a past fact)? (Redating, p. 10).
"One of the oddest facts about the New Testament is that what on any showing would appear to be the single most datable and climactic event of the period  the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70  is never once mentioned as a past fact. . . . [T]he silence is nevertheless as significant as the silence for Sherlock Holmes of the dog that did not bark". (Ibid., p. 13.)

Adam Clarke (1837)
(On Revelation 1:7) "By this the Jewish People are most evidently intended, and therefore the whole verse may be understood as predicting the destruction of the Jews; and is a presumptive proof that the Apocalypse was written before the final overthrow of the Jewish state." (6:971.)

James Burton Coffman (1984)
“The epic work of John A.T. Robinson in Redating the New Testament is one of the most significant works this century with regard to the date of the New Testament, all of which he affirms to have been written before A.D.70, a conclusion which we believe to be correct.†(Commentary on John; Abilene, TX: ACU Press; p. 12)
Epiphanies (A. D. 315-403)
States Revelation was written under "Claudius [Nero] Caesar." (Epiphanies, Heresies 51:12,)

Steve Gregg (1997)
"Many scholars, including those supportive of a late date, have said that there is no historical proof that there was an empire-wide persecution of Christians even in Domitian's reign." (Revelation: Four Views, p.16)
"Since the text is admittedly "uncertain" in many places, and the quotation in question is known only from a Latin translation of the original, we must not place too high a degree of certainty upon our preferred reading of the statement of Irenaeus." (Revelation: Four View)
William Hurte (1884)
"That John saw these visions in the reign of Nero, and that they were written by him during his banishment by that emperor, is confirmed by Theophylact, Andreas, Arethas, and others. We judge, therefore, that this book was written about A.D. 68, and this agrees with other facts of history.. There are also several statements in this book which can only be understood on the ground that the judgment upon Jerusalem was then future." (Catechetical Commentary: Edinburgh, Scotland, 1884)ws, p. 18)
Jamieson, Fausset and Brown (1871)
"The following arguments favor an earlier date, namely, under Nero: (1) EUSEBIUS [Demonstration of the Gospel] unites in the same sentence John's banishment with the stoning of James and the beheading of Paul, which were under Nero. (2) CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA'S story of the robber reclaimed by John, after he had pursued, and with difficulty overtaken him, accords better with John then being a younger man than under Domitian, when he was one hundred years old. Arethas, in the sixth century, applies the sixth seal to the destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70), adding that the Apocalypse was written before that event. So the Syriac version states he was banished by Nero the Cæsar. Laodicea was overthrown by an earthquake (A.D. 60) but was immediately rebuilt, so that its being called "rich and increased with goods" is not incompatible with this book having been written under the Neronian persecution (A.D. 64).

Robert Mounce (1977)
"the Cambridge trio (Westcott, Lightfoot, and Hort) were unanimous in assigning the Apocalypse to the reign of Nero or the years immediately following." And "such a threefold cord of scholarly opinion is not quickly broken" but that he (Swete) is "unable to see that the historical situation presupposed by the Apocalypse contradicts the testimony of Irenaeus which assigns the vision to the end of the reign of Domitian." Mounce seem to agree with Swete on this (p. 21).
The Muratorian Canon (A.D. 170)
"the blessed Apostle Paul, following the rule of his predecessor John, writes to no more than seven churches by name. "
"John too, indeed, in the Apocalypse, although he writes to only seven churches, yet addresses all. " (ANF 5:603).

H.A. Whittaker
"In A.D. 66, the well supported early date for the writing of Revelation, Jerusalem also was a city which 'had a kingdom over the kings of the Land.' Indeed, not only was Jerusalem a city with special authority over the various tetrarchies adjoining Judaea, but also the temple had an amazing degree of authority over Jewish communities in all parts of the Roman empire." (Revelation, page 214).

Herbert B. Workman (1906)
"St. John’s banishment to Patmos was itself a result of the great persecution of Nero. Hard labour for life in the mines and quarries of certain islands, especially Sardinia, formed one of the commonest punishments for Christians. . . . He lived through the horrors of two great persecutions, and died quietly in extreme old age at Ephesus." (Persecution in the Early Church, pp. 18, 19).

Robert Young (1885)
"It was written in Patmos about A.D.68, whither John had been banished by Domitious Nero, as state in the title of the Syriac version of the book ; and with this concurs the express statement of Irenaeus in A.D.175, who says it happened in the reign of Domitianou -- ie., Domitious (Nero). Sulpicius, Orosius, etc., stupidly mistaking Domitianou for Domitianikos, supposed Irenaeus to refer to Domition, A.D. 95, and most succeeding writers have fallen into the same blunder. The internal testimony is wholly in favor of the earlier date." (Commentary on Revelation - Young's Analytical Concordance)

Is this enough to end your assertion that “All scholars†hold to the late date? Shall I present more? If you really want to study the subject, I recommend "Before Jerusalem Fell" by Kenneth Gentry. He examines the internal and external evidence for both the early and late dates.

As far as your Elijah comment, you DO realize Matthew 17:12 occurs RIGHT AFTER Elijah appeared at the Transfiguration, don't you?

You do realize that Jesus says it was John the Baptist who was the “Elijah to come†don’t you? Perhaps you didn’t read the verse, I’ll post it again:

Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

So I ask again, was John the baptist the Elijah to come or was Jesus wrong?[/quote]
 
preterist said:
So I ask again, was John the baptist the Elijah to come or was Jesus wrong?

I finally see the point you were trying to make, that John the Baptist was the prophet who would usher in the Messiah.

Although what that has to do with End-time Prophecy is beyond me.

And now, like all good trolls, you go to the ignore list.
 
I finally see the point you were trying to make, that John the Baptist was the prophet who would usher in the Messiah.

Although what that has to do with End-time Prophecy is beyond me.

And now, like all good trolls, you go to the ignore list.

Ah yes, whenever you can't answer questions you disappear.

The point is that John the Baptist was the Elijah to come. But I think you knew what my point was, you just couldn't refute it. If you will read the first post on this thread you will see what Elijah has to do with eschatology.

Now since you put me on ignore perhaps you can finish up your reading on the "Left Behind" series. How about that tribulation Force? :)
 
preterist said:
The point is that John the Baptist was the Elijah to come.

Again, apples and oranges. It's quite possible Elijah will be one of the witnesses who will lie in the street dead fro three days while the whole world watches.


preterist said:
Now since you put me on ignore perhaps you can finish up your reading on the "Left Behind" series. How about that tribulation Force? :)

Never read one of them. I did enjoy Bill Myers End-times trilogy though. And the stuff by Paul Meier and Robert Wise is interesting, too.
 
preterist wrote:


The point is that John the Baptist was the Elijah to come.


Again, apples and oranges. It's quite possible Elijah will be one of the witnesses who will lie in the street dead fro three days while the whole world watches.

Apples and Oranges only on your part.

Apples = what scripture says
Oranges = what your dispensational pre-suppositions tell you.

You do indeed mix apples and oranges. Now lets look at the scripture one more time. Here is what Malachi says about Elijah and the day of the Lord:

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

So Elijah the prophet will come before the day of the Lord. Is this the literal Elijah? I’m sure that’s what the Jews thought, but lets let Jesus interpret this verse for us. Who does Jesus say this Elijah was?

Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Mat 11:14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Jesus clearly interprets Malachi’s prophecy for us. He tells the disciples, who seemed to be expecting the original Elijah, that it was John the Baptist who was the Elijah to come. The disciples finally understood what Jesus was telling them. Too bad Christians today haven't figured that out yet.

To further prove that John was the fulfillment of Malachi 4 can be found in Luke. Notice Mal. 4:6:

Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Now notice what Luke says concerning John:

Luk 1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
Luk 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Clearly John is the fulfillment of Malachi 4:5,6.

So according to scripture, how can the coming of Elijah still be a future event? Was Jesus wrong in claiming that John fulfilled the prophecy of Malachi? So what was the "day of the Lord" that followed the coming of John(Elijah)? Easy answers if we put away our presuppositions and let the scripture interpret itself.
 
preterist said:
Luk 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
So you're saying that no one should be prepared, for the Lord 2nd coming also ?

Clearly John is the fulfillment of Malachi 4:5,6.
So according to scripture, how can the coming of Elijah still be a future event?
Does the Bible place a limit on how may times, a prophecy could be fulfilled ?
 
preterist wrote:
Luk 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

So you're saying that no one should be prepared, for the Lord 2nd coming also ?

Doesn't matter what I say, what does scripture teach?

Quote:

So according to scripture, how can the coming of Elijah still be a future event?

Does the Bible place a limit on how may times, a prophecy could be fulfilled ?

Does the Bible limit which prophecies can have 1,2,3, or 100 fulfillments? Who decides which prophecies have multiple fulfillments? If John the Baptist was just one of many still future comings of Elijah, then why can't Jesus just be one of many coming Messiahs? You see the problem?

[/quote]
 
Hi Jay and preterist,

Does the Bible place a limit on how may times, a prophecy could be fulfilled ?

It does place a limit on the Olivet Discourse. The Great tribulation has never occurred before and won't again...that is one time only. All things leading up to and connected with that are a one time occurance.

Yes, preterist, of course, John the Baptist was the one to come.

For preterist......off topic,
I have a new proof text for the coming of the son of man.

Rev 2:25
25Only hold on to what you have until I come.

Thyatira no longer exists so you can't send a letter to that church anymore. We have to wonder, did Jesus come to those people at Thyatira or are they still holding?

Preterist wrote:
So what was the "day of the Lord" that followed the coming of John(Elijah)?

I'd say the " day of the Lord" is the same thing as the Lord's day and on the Lord's day ...

Rev 1
10On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,

Same condition in Rev 4
2At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.

Yep, I think John had a perch in Heaven and watched the whole thing.

noble6
 
It does place a limit on the Olivet Discourse. The Great tribulation has never occurred before and won't again...that is one time only. All things leading up to and connected with that are a one time occurance.

There is a time limit on the Olivet Discourse and it can be found in verse 34.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

It was to happen in the generation to whom Jesus spoke. The “tribulation†was the 3 and one half year siege on Jerusalem by the Romans. Read Josephus for the horrid details.

Yes, preterist, of course, John the Baptist was the one to come.

Then that puts the “day of the Lord†of Malachi 4 in the time-frame of John the Baptist.

For preterist......off topic,
I have a new proof text for the coming of the son of man.

Rev 2:25
25Only hold on to what you have until I come.

Thyatira no longer exists so you can't send a letter to that church anymore. We have to wonder, did Jesus come to those people at Thyatira or are they still holding?

You have answered your own question. To whom was Jesus speaking? 21st century Americans or 1st century Jews? Since those Jews have been dead for several days now, I doubt they are still holding. However if Jesus’ parousia was indeed fulfilled in AD70 then this verse has no problems. If it is still future then He gave a false hope to those at Thyatira just as Paul gave the Thessalonians.

Preterist wrote:
Quote:
So what was the "day of the Lord" that followed the coming of John(Elijah)?


I'd say the " day of the Lord" is the same thing as the Lord's day and on the Lord's day ...

Can you find scripture that backs up your assertion?

Here is what the Reformers say:

Rev 1:10 - I was in the (h) Spirit on the (i) Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

(h) This is a holy trance expressed, with which the prophets were entranced, and being carried out of the world, conversed with God: and so Ezekiel says often, that he was carried from place to place by the Spirit, and that the Spirit of the Lord came on him.

(i)He calls it the Lord's day, which Paul calls the first day of the week; (1Co_16:2).

Here is what Barnes says:

On the Lord’s day - The word rendered here as “Lord’s†(κυριακῇ kuriakē), occurs only in this place and in 1Co_11:20, where it is applied to the Lord’s supper. It properly means “pertaining to the Lordâ€Â; and, so far as this word is concerned, it might mean a day “pertaining to the Lord,†in any sense, or for any reason; either because he claimed it as his own, and had set it apart for his own service, or because it was designed to commemorate some important event pertaining to him, or because it was observed in honor of him. It is clear:

(1) That this refers to some day which was distinguished from all other days of the week, and which would be sufficiently designated by the use of this term.
(2) That it was a day which was for some reason regarded as especially a day of the Lord, or especially devoted to him.
(3) It would further appear that this was a day particularly devoted to the Lord Jesus; for:
(a) That is the natural meaning of the word “Lord†as used in the New Testament (compare the notes on Act_1:24); and
(b) If the Jewish Sabbath were intended to be designated, the word “Sabbath†would have been used.
The term was used generally by the early Christians to denote the first day of the week. It occurs twice in the Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians (about 101 a.d.), who calls the Lord’s day “the queen and prince of all days.†Chrysostom (on Ps. 119) says, “It was called the Lord’s day because the Lord rose from the dead on that day.†Later fathers make a marked distinction between the “Sabbath†and the “Lord’s dayâ€Â; meaning by the former the Jewish “Sabbath,†or the seventh day of the week, and by the latter the first day of the week, kept holy by Christians. So Theodoret (Fab. Haeret. ii. 1), speaking of the Ebionites, says, “They keep the Sabbath according to the Jewish law, and sanctify the Lord’s day in like manner as we do†(Prof. Stuart). The strong probability is, that the name was given to this day in honor of the Lord Jesus, and because he rose on that day from the dead. No one can doubt that it was an appellation given to the first day of the week; and the passage, therefore, proves:

(1) That that day was thus early distinguished in some special manner, so that the mere mention of it would be sufficient to identify it in the minds of those to whom the apostle wrote;
(2) That it was in some sense regarded as devoted to the Lord Jesus, or was designed in some way to commemorate what he had done; and,
(3) That if this book were written by the apostle John, the observance of that day has the apostolic sanction. He had manifestly, in accordance with a prevailing custom, set apart this day in honor of the Lord Jesus. Though alone, he was engaged on that day in acts of devotion. Though far away from the sanctuary, he enjoyed what all Christians hope to enjoy on such a day of rest, and what not a few do in fact enjoy in its observance. We may remark, in view of this statement:
(a) that when away from the sanctuary, and deprived of its privileges, we should nevertheless not fail to observe the Christian Sabbath. If on a bed of sickness, if in a land of strangers, if on the deep, if in a foreign clime, if on a lonely island, as John was, where we have none of the advantages of public worship, we should yet honor the Sabbath. We should worship God alone, if we have none to unite with us; we should show to those around us, if we are with strangers, by our dress and our conversation, by a serious and devent manner, by abstinence from labor, and by a resting from travel, that we devoutly regard this day as set apart for God.
(b) We may expect, in such circumstances, and with such a devout observance of the day, that God will meet with us and bless us. It was on a lonely island, far away from the sanctuary and from the society of Christian friends, that the Saviour met “the beloved disciple,†and we may trust it will be so with us. For on such a desert island, in a lonely forest, on the deep, or amid strangers in a foreign land, he can as easily meet us as in the sanctuary where we have been accustomed to worship, and when surrounded by all the privileges of a Christian land. No man, at home or abroad, among friends or strangers, enjoying the privileges of the sanctuary, or deprived of those privileges, ever kept the Christian Sabbath in a devout manner without profit to his own soul; and, when deprived of the privileges of public worship, the visitations of the Saviour to the soul may be more than a compensation for all our privations. Who would not be willing to be banished to a lonely island like Patmos, if he might enjoy such a glorious vision of the Redeemer as John was favored with there?



Same condition in Rev 4
2At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.

Yep, I think John had a perch in Heaven and watched the whole thing.

I would agree with Barnes, he never left Patmos:

Rev 4:2 -
And immediately I was in the Spirit - See the notes on Rev_1:10. He does not affirm that he was caught up into heaven, nor does he say what impression was on his own mind, if any, as to the place where he was; but he was at once absorbed in the contemplation of the visions before him. He was doubtless still in Patmos, and these things were made to pass before his mind as a reality; that is, they appeared as real to him as if he saw them, and they were in fact a real symbolical representation of things occurring in heaven.
 
hi preterist,
I would agree with Barnes, he never left Patmos

His physical body wouldn't, only his spirit/inner self/immortal soul/whatever it is.

Youre the only one who has ever answered the Rev 2:25 question.

noble6
 
Jay T said:
Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD"

OK, so there is no mistaking when the 'great and dreadful day of the Lord' is......
I'll give my opinion as to what I think it is.

Using the words: 'great and dreadful'...to me is the JUDGMENT DAY of God (as in His 2nd Coming).
GREAT.....Because, that is the time Jesus Christ will come in all the glory of heaven !!!

Millions of angels, surrounding Him as He comes, each angel shining with brightness, which human eyes cannot withstand.

Noise, as human ears have never heard before !

Great...because of the joy of those who longed for His return.


DREADFUL.....to those who have rejected Jesus Christ and his offer of salvation.
They will be destroyed by the brightness of His coming (2 Thess. 2:8).
There is no...2nd chance for them !


BUT...lets' back to the time before all that happens.

The Elijah message of the Great Triulation will be basicly the same as was issued by Elijah, in his day and time period.

It hinged around the commandments of God, calling men to come back to the true worship of God (as also told in Revelation chapter 14).

The Mark of the Beast has to do with worship, which violates God's commandments...as scripture reveals (Revelation chapters 13 & 14).

The parallels between the experience of Elijah, and the soon-coming Great Triulation is apparent, as one studies the Life of Elijah.

If one wishes to understand what is to come, one has only to what has happened in the past...as history repeats itself, as it often does.



___________

John here: Wow, it makes one wonder about the SPIRIT of Elijah, huh?

Anyhow, here is a post from another site! Sounds like the Elijah message to me? (or that of John's, :wink: that of preparing one for the 2nd Coming of the Master!)


Quote:
Originally Posted by ----- (I will omit the names)
Forgive me ----- but could you plese clear something up for me?

Are you saying that if someone doesn't hold Saturday as the sabbath, then there is no light in them?
Thank you in advnce for your response.

_____
Hi,
Let me quote the Word of God, OK? In the King James it goes like this:

"To the [law] and to the [testimony]: if [they speak not according to this Word], it [is because there is no light in them]." Isaiah 8:20. That is not my word by the way!

There is only one part of the Word of God that He Himself wrote, and that is the ten Commandments. And the rest of the Word of God, the Godhead intrusted Holy men of God to pen by Inspiration, yet, it is seen in their own descriptive language. (that is why the first four books of the N.T. are not carbon copies) And, I might add, God designed it this way to unite divinity with humanity as well. Like Christ as God man.

Now for your question? ask it another way and put God to the test, not me. Is God telling us that if I do not honor my mother and father that there is no light in these 'teaching' ones teachings?

Or: So I kill and commit adultary, am I lightless? And the first table of the ten? (where the Sabbath Commandment is at) We do remember the Master telling the attorney what the first great commandment was, right? To love God with all your heart, and with [all thy soul, and with all of thy mind.] You can see this in Matthew 22:35-40. The rest of the verses cover our duty to mankind as well.

OK: See if you can seperate the two tables of stone in their importance as He gave them unto us? (I will just touch the bottom line of each from the first)

Commandment NO 1 Thou shalt have no other Gods before Me. (the bigest culpret is self, but even then it is not our own thing that is being done.See Eph. 6:12 If I dis/obey, am I lightless? That is what God said!

Commandment No. 2: NO IMAGES between us and God. Is God telling us that we are 'lightless' if we do... 'Thou shalt not make unto thee any image, ... shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.."

No. 3 is that we are not to take the name of the Lord thy God name in vain. Personally I question that any who love Christ would 'desire' to do that! Yet, if one reads Mark 7:7, we can readily see there, that we do take the Master's NAME IN VAIN even by 'teaching for doctrines the commandments of men'. (sunday sacredness is such a teaching)

NO 4 concludes our 'Worship' to God in the first table of the deacologe. The next six cover our duty to God as serving mankind. And the 4th Commandment says what? That one is 'lightless' if they dis/obey or obey? Note just a couple Words that He alone [WROTE].
"But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God:" ... wherefore the Lord [blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it]."

In 1 John 2:4 we see the beloved John speaking by the Inspiration of the Holy Ghost with even as decisive language, at least. He states that if we say that we know Him and then do not keep His commandments? This finds these ones 'as a liar, and the truth is not in him.'

Now, yes this is what we see in the Word of God. Yet, we also know that we are accountable to be led, and to study, and to obey. Acts 5:32 but one can rest assured that before it is all over, one, if they are still alive? will be tested on this one commandment to see if they really are safe to save, or are just talk. See Nahum 1:9

Check out John 10:16 & Revelation 18:4.

---John
 
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