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End Times, Tribulation, Rapture, NWO, anti-christ

J

Joshua

Member
It seems to me that a lot of people are really freaked out about these things. Now, granted I would like to spend my life on earth for as long as God will let me, however when he calls me home it will be a wonderful glorious day. But what good can come from Christians thinking that every new person who comes to have power or influence is the anti-christ? Or that when life gets a little rough for people it's the end of the world? How about all the secret groups, that are very bad at being secret, who want a new world order so they can rule the world?

Maybe I'm just dense. I would really like to know if this type of reaction (or over reaction) to the world is how God wants us(Christains) to lead our lives? Is it an effective way to bring people to Christ? it seems, to me, like it would just scare people. I'm feel Christ wants to people to come to Him through love not this "oh crap the world is ending and everyone is going to die!" mentality.

Just me thinking out loud. :-D
 
personally, I don't care for any authorities or personal that might be or is the anti-Christ. because it doesn't really affect me. I mean God has a plan for each of us, and to be worried about something that may or may not affect you is meaningless. Even if it does affect you, it was made to be. So I just don't worry about that, instead I try to live the best I can for Christ and try to spread the good news
 
Joshua, I don't know if you have heard of preterism, but I've been looking into (partial) preterism lately and it does indeed seem to make more sense of 'end time' scripture than the 'futurist' view. I'm no theologian though, and I'm still studying it. I thought you may find it interesting.
 
Hugo said:
Joshua, I don't know if you have heard of preterism, but I've been looking into (partial) preterism lately and it does indeed seem to make more sense of 'end time' scripture than the 'futurist' view. I'm no theologian though, and I'm still studying it. I thought you may find it interesting.
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Yes I have heard of preterism. It is interesting, and from what I know of preterism I don't agree. I think you can take any 100 year span and make it fit "the end times" of Revelations. Through-out history people have believed they live in the end times.
 
I, also, am a futurist. Second century Christians are futurists.

If you want to consider preterism and the arguments for it, try this site:

THE NARROW PATH

WARNING: If you are considering arguing with these guys, be well-prepared. Some of them are really sharp.
 
Joshua said:
Anyone else have any thoughts on the OP?
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John 16:33 These things have I spoken unto you, that in me ye may have peace. In the world ye have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

I think some of the fears, worries, misgivings, and assorted thoughts we have about the future are quite natural and that God completely understands what we go though.

These are exciting times!
 
Paidion said:
I, also, am a futurist. Second century Christians are futurists.
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Second century Christians were not "futurists" as it is taught today.
Futurism was invented by a Jesuit Priest named Francisco Ribera in the mid 1500's.
He was commissioned by the Pope at the Council of Trent to develop a new interpretation of Scripture that would counteract the Protestant application of the Bible’s Antichrist prophecies to the Roman Catholic Church and the papacy.

In 1590, Ribera published a commentary on the Revelation as a counter-interpretation to the prevailing view among Protestants which identified the Papacy with the Antichrist. Ribera applied all of Revelation but the earliest chapters to the end time rather than to the history of the Church. Antichrist would be a single evil person who would be received by the Jews and would rebuild Jerusalem. Ribera denied the Protestant Scriptural Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2) as seated in the church of Godâ€â€asserted by Augustine, Jerome, Luther and many reformers.

As for the second century believers, many believed the reigns of Nero and Titus Vespasian to be the biblical "tibulation" time.

160AD Clement of Alexandria (On Matthew 24:15, The Abomination of Desolation) "We have still to add to our chronology the following, -- I mean the days which Daniel indicates from the desolation of Jerusalem, the seven years and seven months of the reign of Vespasian. For the two years are added to the seventeen months and eighteen days of Otho, and Galba, and Vitellius; and the result is three years and six months, which is "the half of the week," as Daniel the prophet said. For he said that there were two thousand three hundred days from the time that the abomination of Nero stood in the holy city, till its destruction. For thus the declaration, which is subjoined, shows: "How long shall be the vision, the sacrifice taken away, the abomination of desolation, which is given, and the power and the holy place shall be trodden under foot? And he said to him, Till the evening and morning, two thousand three hundred days, and the holy place shall be taken away." … "These two thousand three hundred days, then, make six years four months, during the half of which Nero held sway, and it was half a week; and for a half, Vespasian with Otho, Galba, and Vitellius reigned. And on this account Daniel says, "Blessed is he that cometh to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days." For up to these days was war, and after them it ceased. And this number is demonstrated from a subsequent chapter, which is as follows: "And from the time of the change of continuation, and of the giving of the abomination of desolation, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days." " (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 2, p. 334)

Not trying to start an eschatological war here, just pointing out historical facts.
You're free to believe the "futurist" view if you so choose. You cannot, however, apply it to the historical beliefs of the early church.

Peace be with you
 
Joshua, if we are close to the Lord Jesus these things aren't scary or depressing. It is very exciting to see the Bible fulfill itself! I don't know who the antichrist is, but I believe at his appointed time we who belong to the Lord will know.
He will give us the grace to know at that time, be it soon or later. The key in knowing is to stay close to the Lord. Right now we can see our political leaders operating under the influence of the spirit of antichrist, as they all work toward a global world order. This goes for both major political parties.

Jesus will sustain you and give you the grace to stay strong and unafraid, if you stay close to Him.
Watch and pray!
 
What wayniac said is true; futurism doesn't have it's roots in Darby, Margaret MacDonald or the early Church. It was Ribera.

Thanks for bringing that up, wayniac . :yes
 
How can you say it all happen, when Jesus told us what will be happening before His return. Where is the rapture guys, does any one in this forum believe that we will be rapture???

Yes or No??
If it all happen already than were is the thousand years of peace were Yeshua is reigning on this earth.
Yeshua told us in Matt.24 what signs to look for at the very end and we are living in the very end. Israel becoming a nation was one sign.
Matthew 24:29-32 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Now do you believe in a rapture? :amen
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
 
Yes I have heard of preterism. It is interesting, and from what I know of preterism I don't agree. I think you can take any 100 year span and make it fit "the end times" of Revelations. Through-out history people have believed they live in the end times.
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True, but that's missing the point of preterism. The end times must have occured within the generation to whom Jesus and the apostles spoke, because that's what Jesus said, and the apostles agreed that it would come very soon.

Thus it's irrelevant to try make it fit any time span after the generation of the apostles. I don't even know anyone that tries to do that. Futurists have generally thought it was during their time like you said.

So, the second coming either happened in the apostles' generation or it hasn't happened yet.
 
The entire context of Matthew 24 is addressed to Jesus' disciples standing right there with Him. It was to them that He said: "When YOU see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet . . . " Yet futurists are still looking for that abomination of desolation. Notice that Luke clearly explained it as the surrounding of Jerusalem by armies! This happened in A. D. 70. Why look for another fulfillment?

Furthermore, much of the difficulty with Matthew 24:29-32 comes from students of the Word approaching the Scriptures with a western mindset. These verses contain OT, Jewish prophetic and metaphorical language commonly used by OT prophets to express God's coming in judgment upon a nation or peoples. Such upheavals in the heavens and the earth are seen in God's judgment against Babylon, and Egypt and Edom (see Isaiah 13 and 34 for example). The earth is described as moving out of her place and shaking and the hosts of heaven are pictured as dissolving and rolling up as a scroll! When did these things actually and physically happen? This is apocalyptic, figurative judgment language.

Also, note that Jesus tells those very disciples that THEY were to recognize the signs of His coming as clearly as THEY recognized the signs of the coming of summer. The fig tree is a fig tree! It has nothing to do with some future restoration of Israel! While on the earth, Jesus did not know the day or the hour of His return, but He knew the time frame. How much more clear could He have expressed it--"THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place" [to include verses 29-32!]. Jesus used this expression around twenty times. He always used it of His contemporaries--always. Simply because one cannot "see" a fulfillment does not justify ignoring the plain words of Scripture and the plain teachings from our Lord's own lips.

Things can be easily not seen if one is looking for a fulfillment that is of the wrong nature. In other words, dispensationalists view the nature of Christ's return as physical and visible. They, therefore, cannot accept such expressions as "this generation" and "soon" and "near" and "shortly" at face value because such terms demand a first-century return of Christ. They cannot "see" such a return so they redefine Jesus' words to fit their understanding. But is this how we should approach Scripture?

Jesus plainly said that the Twelve would not finish going through the cities of Israel before He came. Do we take Him at His word and readjust our understanding of His coming (Mat. 10:23)?

Jesus plainly told His disciples right there with Him that some of THEM standing right there would not die until they saw Him coming in His kingdom (Mat. 16:28). Are not His words plain? Yet many cannot "see" this coming in His kingdom, so they change the meaning of His words!

Jesus told that first-century Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin after they had accused Him of blasphemy that THEY themselves would see Him "sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven" (Mat. 26:64). How do we explain this away? Is this not the same cloud-coming as Matthew 24--a cloud coming that Jesus clearly said would occur in His generation to His contemporaries?

John was shown those things which were in his day to "shortly" take place. The time for fulfillment was then "near" (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10). Is this not plain language? If our understanding causes us to obscure the clear, then perhaps we need to reassess our understanding! Many stumble over Revelation 1:7 needlessly because they misunderstand the simple word "every." As I have indicated before, "every" is rarely used in an all-inclusive sense. It is normally confined by the context in which it is used. For example, if my child goes to a youth group meeting and I ask him when he comes home, "who was there?" and he says "everyone was there," what does "everyone" mean? Clearly, it does not mean everyone throughout the entire earth who has ever lived on this earth! Everyone involved in that particular youth group was there! Every eye of those of that time frame--especially those of the tribes of the land, saw Him! They saw Him just as their forefathers had seen Him when He "came" on the clouds of heaven to destroy Solomon's Temple and take the nation into captivity! No Jew would have missed the significance of the events of the Jewish Wars which culminated in the totaly destruction of Herod's Temple and the city of Jerusalem. EVERY eye saw it, even those who pierced Him! The city and the Temple were wonders of the world. It is hard to imagine that anyone would have missed this great catastrophe. According to Josephus, even Titus, who led the Roman armies in the destruction, declared that it seemed as though their God had come upon them!

Near means near, shortly means shortly, and soon means soon. These terms are plain and simple. They are not justifabily and correctly reasoned away by a desperate and unjustified appeal to 2 Peter 3:8! They mean what they mean. Even those who would distort them and redefine them use those very terms today when they proclaim "Jesus is coming soon! The end is near!" If we cannot understand the plain and the simple, how will we ever understand the deep things of the faith?

I say these things as a former dispensationalist (over twenty years) rescued from error by the plain teachings of the Word of God!

In Christ, Preterist
 
A "SINGLE PROPHECY" can have a "DUAL APPLICATION/FULFILMENT" to cover "BOTH" comings of Jesus.

A "SPIRITUAL" application to cover Jesus's "FIRST" coming,

and a "LITERAL" application to cover his "SECOND" coming.

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah

Israel/Disciples were expecting the "Literal Elijah", and failed to see the "Spiritual Elijah" in John the Baptist.

And there are many more such prophecies, Here's some of the easier one to understand.

http://i25.tinypic.com/1znaptj.jpg
 
Me4him said:
A "SINGLE PROPHECY" can have a "DUAL APPLICATION/FULFILMENT" to cover "BOTH" comings of Jesus.
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Howdy, fellow Tennessean!

I think dual fulfillment is interesting. I may look into it more. Thanks for posting.
 
destiny said:
Joshua, if we are close to the Lord Jesus these things aren't scary or depressing. It is very exciting to see the Bible fulfill itself! I don't know who the antichrist is, but I believe at his appointed time we who belong to the Lord will know.
He will give us the grace to know at that time, be it soon or later. The key in knowing is to stay close to the Lord. Right now we can see our political leaders operating under the influence of the spirit of antichrist, as they all work toward a global world order. This goes for both major political parties.

Jesus will sustain you and give you the grace to stay strong and unafraid, if you stay close to Him.
Watch and pray!
Click to expand...

Greetings, destiny: Could you spell out what parts of the Bible are being fulfilled in our day? Where were we told to "watch and pray?" Thanks!

Sincerely, Matthew24:34
 
I don't understand why people always suggest that a futurist uses the dooms day (fear) to approach to bring people to Christ. If I saw a really bad storm coming what would I do?? I would tell as many people as possible as I could and fast. Even if they didn’t see it coming and I did, I would still go out of my way to get the message out. I would be unconcerned if others ridiculed me and labelled me a lunatic.

I do exactly what Jesus said for me to do in Mark 16:15 “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creationâ€Â. So if I believe these things are coming, I obviously want to get as many people to come to faith as soon as possible.

Many people do not believe the word of god because they have to see it with their own eyes for them to believe to be true. They want to see the evidence. I know it’s the wrong reasons but I minister to those who don’t believe everyday and there is a pattern of behaviour.

You can tell them about Christ’s salvation, Christ’s Love (which should be part of every game plan) and what a life with Christ is like, but often you just won’t get them to open their heart unless their mind is open first. They have to see proof. So you can see why many will take current events (and events to follow) and apply them to scripture. You are very right coming to Christ should be a spiritual thing. I think most reputable bible scholars who have the modern day view usually end their discussions trying to get you to come to Christ for the right reasons.

There is a New World Order being formed Time Magazine just reported “Obama’s New World Order†, A One world religion is being preached now via the United Nations established the “Alliance of Civilizations†to show that the path to world peace will come through religious tolerance. They seek is to eliminate all “religious fundamentalism†and those who think that they have a sole lock on the truth.

The day after Ahmadinejad was fraudulently elected where was he ? in Russia begging the Russian members of The Shanghai Cooperation Organization (SCO) to give his Country full status. The SCO is the military alliance between Russia, China, Iran and Islamic countries.

The SCO alliance is evocative of the eastern-portion of the biblical alliance foretold in Ezekiel 38-39 that will come against Israel and seek to destroy the Jewish people. When one considers how closely Russia and Iran are currently growing to the western portion of the prophetic alliance  Sudan, Libya and Algeria, for example  it’s not hard to envision these prophecies coming true in our lifetime, or even in the next few years.

Daniel chapters 2 and 7 reveal a strong connection between the formation of the European Union and end-times scripture.

The Third Temple is on the verge of being built http://www.templeinstitute.org/.
We can see now how The River Euphrates Rev: 16:12 can be dried via the Ataturk Dam.

Now all of these little things I have told you will be called coincidences by the Preterits.
I have only one fundamental problem with this view and that is they do not believe in a modern day Antichrist.

So no matter what you see in the modern day, ignore the signs under their view. So despite every sign scripture may give you that might describe the modern day Antichrist, his prophet, and his empire ignore it. If you see a world leader coming out of a 10 nation NWO tells you to take a mark and bow down to him why wouldn’t you he can’t possibly be the Antichrist. So take the mark and be unconcerned and ultimately condemned.

From my study of this view and arguing with them constantly I have concluded that many of them simply have no idea about modern day events. They seem unconcerned about the goings on in our world in the modern day. They seem ignorant about media events almost to the point they will make you feel guilty for keeping up to date with current world events. I call this denial.

I don’t really have any rapture or tribulation views I believe we do not really know when Christ will return or when these things will come to pass.

But if anyone can look me in the eyes and say they don’t believe that current day signs are not overwhelming as far as matching scripture exactly and in order I feel sorry for them ,I will pray for them, and I consider them blind and nieve .

So if I am here during Tribulation or part of it yes I may be a little scared, but I know that the only thing I can do is make sure I am right with Christ.
 
nonbelieverforums said:
Now all of these little things I have told you will be called coincidences by the Preterits.
I have only one fundamental problem with this view and that is they do not believe in a modern day Antichrist.
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Well, it's only because the Bible teaches no such thing, but you have made it clear that you don't want to be bothered with Biblical facts like that when you have the superior testimony of the newspaper and the internets to guide you....
 
No one is suggesting media events over scripture brother.

My arguement is that you ignore events in the current day.. Just once I woud like you to tell me you watch or read the news. I keep asking you never seem to answer this question. Well do you?

You can do this and still be of your view. The fact a christian may watch the news doesn't mean they are neglecting the bible. Guess what? We can do both.

I have a friend who is a missionary in China that fact I keep an eye the country politically does that mean I am neglecting the bible?
 
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