Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
Equidistant Letter Sequences
- Thread starter John
- Start date
I suppose who ever wants to debate it first, jump to it, any question, anyone feel free to start it off.
If you feel this thread is in the wrong forum please move it.
Equidistant Letter Sequence Codes
The codes found in the Bible are called "Equidistant Letter Sequence" codes or "ELS" codes. This method has been used by spies for hundreds of years. Here is an old note, which appears to be non-sense, but spies used this note to communicate. In this example, the phrase "meet at 8" is encoded at an ELS of 7 (every seventh letter, starting with the first letter of the code, which is "m")
The man walked out the door into the stands that seated 8,000 fans.
"Meet at 8" encoded at an ELS interval of 7.
debate question: Do hidden messages in the Bible prove it was written by an all-powerful God?
If you feel this thread is in the wrong forum please move it.
Equidistant Letter Sequence Codes
The codes found in the Bible are called "Equidistant Letter Sequence" codes or "ELS" codes. This method has been used by spies for hundreds of years. Here is an old note, which appears to be non-sense, but spies used this note to communicate. In this example, the phrase "meet at 8" is encoded at an ELS of 7 (every seventh letter, starting with the first letter of the code, which is "m")
The man walked out the door into the stands that seated 8,000 fans.
"Meet at 8" encoded at an ELS interval of 7.
debate question: Do hidden messages in the Bible prove it was written by an all-powerful God?
D
Dunamite
Guest
The Bible code has been known to exist for centuries. Newton believed that the Bible was encoded, so did many Jewish scholars and kabbalists. It was only proven to exist in the last 25 years using the power of computers.
The basic idea is that Hebrew is written without vowels and punctuation. The Hebrew Bible can therefore be written in a matrix with infinite variations leaving out any spaces. So if you take a passage from the Bible you can make the sequence anything you like as long as the original order is preserved.
The way it works is that you can search for any name to create the array. Then you skip count in the array to find associated meaning. You can for example, look for bin Laden or John F. Kennedy and they will appear. The computer just searches until it finds what you are looking for. Then you need to hunt for sentences in the array that appear nearby and are equidistant.
What happened was that scientists were able to discern meaning associated with the passage in question that defies the odds of random association. For example, in Genesis 46: 3- 4 says, "I am God, the God of your father," he said. "Do not be afraid to go down to Egypt, for I will make you into a great nation there. 4 I will go down to Egypt with you, and I will surely bring you back again. And Joseph's own hand will close your eyes."
This of course would be written in Hebrew. Contained in the sequence of Hebrew letters is the word Eichmann, spelled phonetically as EYChMaN (the vowels don't exist, but are added to make it read properly). This in itself is not odd. You can find any word by skip counting if you can vary the array of letters infinitely. What is astounding is the sentence that appears with 100% accuracy while skip counting the same passage. It says in Hebrew, "They or (he) consumed a great people" and later says "by the hand of the SS" and "in Auchwitz". This is based on an array width of 300, skipping at distances of 2, 1, and 300. Later it says "gas" and "Zyklon B" using an array width of 120, skipping by 2, 1 and 9,180 and still later it says "one third of my people" with a width of 25, skipping by 2, 1 and 75.
This is typical of the type of information found in the Bible code. There has been much written about it but nobody knows what to make of it. Nobody sees it as coincidence. Even atheists believe it to be authentic, but can't explain it.
Somebody wrote to debunk it using War and Peace. They found ELSes but nothing which had any meaning or significance such as information that relates to the same subject and has real meaning. They found ELS with one to five words long that had no relation to passage. Here is the best example: They searched for the word "Kuwait" and found "from the anger a vessel came and arrived" or "Libya" with "give his bread". (The passage was in Hebrew if you are wondering why it has only five words, but mine shows more.) In comparison, some of the ELSes found in Isaiah 53 are 73 characters long!
Some examples of ELSes are:
Psalm 22: "You will cry out for the blood of the Messiah" and "Guilt offering, the son of man humbled himself" and "Golgotha, where his reputation came from".
The shorter the cluster the greater probability that they could appear chance. Really long ELSes such as the one that is 73 characters long have astronomically small odds of appearing randomly. The odds of several of them appearing together only compound the odds. The odds are that these things were intentionally put there.
To put this in perspective using the Torah, you will find 15.5 billion seven letter combinations but only 2.5 billion that can make "words" exactly seven letters long. That means that on average you would find any given seven letter combination a maximum of six times in the Torah. As the combination increases in length it drops. You would expect to find a twelve letter sequence 0.000000657 times. The odds of finding one 73 characters long in Isaiah 53 are so small they have no meaning to us. It is akin to covering the continental United States with fine grain sand to a depth of one inch and painting a single grain of sand red and giving a blindfolded person a microscopic pair of tweezers and randomly picking the single grain of red sand.
The first people to break the Bible code were from Israel. They were secular Jews. They were mathematicians and were interested in the results, not in the implications. They shared their findings with a former CIA code breaker. He was not religious either, but was confounded. He confirmed their findings but could not explain them. The work has been published for a couple of decades now and nobody can explain it other than to say that it is real.
Ezekiel 37 contains references to Manhattan (2), Taliban (2), extremist (3), Jihad, Pentagon, Terrorism (2), hijackers (5), Armageddon (8), Saddam Hussein, Al Qaeda, Muhammed Omar, Saddam is guilty, N. Korea (3), Giuliani (2, Pennsylvania, Tora Bora, bin Laden, his hand, Philippines, And with me 110 floors, The beauty of moving September 11, Tower destroyed and more. This is all in one small passage of the Bible. There are many long ones, too. Here is one of more than a dozen:
"The trouble of the newborn one is vigilant and honest because of the ruin. Get out as if Iraq had been sent out. The majority is aware that, rest in peace, you will come -- the villainy with light. You will understand the heart of granite." While the meaning may be unclear, the odds of these appearing at random too small to worry about.
Christians of course have tried to use other books of the Bible. And tried to look for evidence of Jesus Christ in the Old Testament books and they were not disappointed.
Here is the longest found to date. It is from Isaiah 53.
"If the friend of evil will thirst for the end of righteous purity, his home is an urn. Let Judas have his day. To me, the Elevated One, they fasted. Where are you? Its content will be written from my mouth. Father, indeed, you will raise the dead over there."
In this same passage are similar strings with of lengths, 47, 39, 33, 30, 26, 24 and 3 of 22 right down 4 characters long. Words that appear are: sponge, the vine, treasure, scoffer (2), Savior, Prince, Mary (16), my servant, Jesus, Heaven, glorify, foundation, Who is Jesus? Master, the blessed, fulfillment, carpentry, second Adam, true Messiah, piercers of my feet, she weeps much, Jesus reigns, dreadful day for Mary, Mary is the mother of God, Jesus is salvation, Wonder! Jesus is the truth, Jesus created a high gift, my shepherds are among my disciples and it goes on and on.
Mere chance? The experts say no. What does it mean? That is for each person to judge. The fact that they exist at all are remarkable in itself. Since it took modern computers to find them, they could not have been planted in the ancient past by humans.
You don't have to look to hidden codes to know that the Bible knows the future. Jesus was prophesied outright by the prophets. We know that he was to be born a descendant of David and he was to come from Bethlehem. We know that he was to be a humble servant and a conquering King. Read Psalm 22 and you can picture the crucifixion of Jesus. David wrote the words, but he was never crucified. He did not suffer the way his words describe. He is talking about someone else's suffering. It is very detailed.
The Bible is full of prophecy that came true. And there are still a few that are yet to come.
The basic idea is that Hebrew is written without vowels and punctuation. The Hebrew Bible can therefore be written in a matrix with infinite variations leaving out any spaces. So if you take a passage from the Bible you can make the sequence anything you like as long as the original order is preserved.
The way it works is that you can search for any name to create the array. Then you skip count in the array to find associated meaning. You can for example, look for bin Laden or John F. Kennedy and they will appear. The computer just searches until it finds what you are looking for. Then you need to hunt for sentences in the array that appear nearby and are equidistant.
What happened was that scientists were able to discern meaning associated with the passage in question that defies the odds of random association. For example, in Genesis 46: 3- 4 says, "I am God, the God of your father," he said. "Do not be afraid to go down to Egypt, for I will make you into a great nation there. 4 I will go down to Egypt with you, and I will surely bring you back again. And Joseph's own hand will close your eyes."
This of course would be written in Hebrew. Contained in the sequence of Hebrew letters is the word Eichmann, spelled phonetically as EYChMaN (the vowels don't exist, but are added to make it read properly). This in itself is not odd. You can find any word by skip counting if you can vary the array of letters infinitely. What is astounding is the sentence that appears with 100% accuracy while skip counting the same passage. It says in Hebrew, "They or (he) consumed a great people" and later says "by the hand of the SS" and "in Auchwitz". This is based on an array width of 300, skipping at distances of 2, 1, and 300. Later it says "gas" and "Zyklon B" using an array width of 120, skipping by 2, 1 and 9,180 and still later it says "one third of my people" with a width of 25, skipping by 2, 1 and 75.
This is typical of the type of information found in the Bible code. There has been much written about it but nobody knows what to make of it. Nobody sees it as coincidence. Even atheists believe it to be authentic, but can't explain it.
Somebody wrote to debunk it using War and Peace. They found ELSes but nothing which had any meaning or significance such as information that relates to the same subject and has real meaning. They found ELS with one to five words long that had no relation to passage. Here is the best example: They searched for the word "Kuwait" and found "from the anger a vessel came and arrived" or "Libya" with "give his bread". (The passage was in Hebrew if you are wondering why it has only five words, but mine shows more.) In comparison, some of the ELSes found in Isaiah 53 are 73 characters long!
Some examples of ELSes are:
Psalm 22: "You will cry out for the blood of the Messiah" and "Guilt offering, the son of man humbled himself" and "Golgotha, where his reputation came from".
The shorter the cluster the greater probability that they could appear chance. Really long ELSes such as the one that is 73 characters long have astronomically small odds of appearing randomly. The odds of several of them appearing together only compound the odds. The odds are that these things were intentionally put there.
To put this in perspective using the Torah, you will find 15.5 billion seven letter combinations but only 2.5 billion that can make "words" exactly seven letters long. That means that on average you would find any given seven letter combination a maximum of six times in the Torah. As the combination increases in length it drops. You would expect to find a twelve letter sequence 0.000000657 times. The odds of finding one 73 characters long in Isaiah 53 are so small they have no meaning to us. It is akin to covering the continental United States with fine grain sand to a depth of one inch and painting a single grain of sand red and giving a blindfolded person a microscopic pair of tweezers and randomly picking the single grain of red sand.
The first people to break the Bible code were from Israel. They were secular Jews. They were mathematicians and were interested in the results, not in the implications. They shared their findings with a former CIA code breaker. He was not religious either, but was confounded. He confirmed their findings but could not explain them. The work has been published for a couple of decades now and nobody can explain it other than to say that it is real.
Ezekiel 37 contains references to Manhattan (2), Taliban (2), extremist (3), Jihad, Pentagon, Terrorism (2), hijackers (5), Armageddon (8), Saddam Hussein, Al Qaeda, Muhammed Omar, Saddam is guilty, N. Korea (3), Giuliani (2, Pennsylvania, Tora Bora, bin Laden, his hand, Philippines, And with me 110 floors, The beauty of moving September 11, Tower destroyed and more. This is all in one small passage of the Bible. There are many long ones, too. Here is one of more than a dozen:
"The trouble of the newborn one is vigilant and honest because of the ruin. Get out as if Iraq had been sent out. The majority is aware that, rest in peace, you will come -- the villainy with light. You will understand the heart of granite." While the meaning may be unclear, the odds of these appearing at random too small to worry about.
Christians of course have tried to use other books of the Bible. And tried to look for evidence of Jesus Christ in the Old Testament books and they were not disappointed.
Here is the longest found to date. It is from Isaiah 53.
"If the friend of evil will thirst for the end of righteous purity, his home is an urn. Let Judas have his day. To me, the Elevated One, they fasted. Where are you? Its content will be written from my mouth. Father, indeed, you will raise the dead over there."
In this same passage are similar strings with of lengths, 47, 39, 33, 30, 26, 24 and 3 of 22 right down 4 characters long. Words that appear are: sponge, the vine, treasure, scoffer (2), Savior, Prince, Mary (16), my servant, Jesus, Heaven, glorify, foundation, Who is Jesus? Master, the blessed, fulfillment, carpentry, second Adam, true Messiah, piercers of my feet, she weeps much, Jesus reigns, dreadful day for Mary, Mary is the mother of God, Jesus is salvation, Wonder! Jesus is the truth, Jesus created a high gift, my shepherds are among my disciples and it goes on and on.
Mere chance? The experts say no. What does it mean? That is for each person to judge. The fact that they exist at all are remarkable in itself. Since it took modern computers to find them, they could not have been planted in the ancient past by humans.
You don't have to look to hidden codes to know that the Bible knows the future. Jesus was prophesied outright by the prophets. We know that he was to be born a descendant of David and he was to come from Bethlehem. We know that he was to be a humble servant and a conquering King. Read Psalm 22 and you can picture the crucifixion of Jesus. David wrote the words, but he was never crucified. He did not suffer the way his words describe. He is talking about someone else's suffering. It is very detailed.
The Bible is full of prophecy that came true. And there are still a few that are yet to come.
D
Dunamite
Guest
I have half a dozen or more books on the subject. I am a bit of an enthusiast, I am afraid. Yes, I do tend to get carried away... about many things.johnmuise said:
Do you know about the copper scroll? It is part of the Dead Sea scrolls and apparently leads to the lost Temple treasury which is worth billions of dollars. I'm sure there is a movie here somewhere that has to be better than the Da Vinci Code. Steven Spielberg, are you listening?
cyberjosh
Member
Dunamite,
*So much for the debate thread being 1-on-1*
What happens to the whole ELS theory when one single word in a Hebrew manuscript is spelt differently so as to be 1 or more letters longer or shorter than another manuscript's version? The claims leveled against the Dead Sea Scolls by atheists saying that there are thousands of differences with the Masoretic text (thus contradictions) is wrong, but they base it on one thing that is true: in books such as Isaiah alone there are over 2000 differences in spelling or gender change in words when compared to the later Massoretic text (which account for most of the differences - although there are entire words [and even sentance] differences).
It is my understanding that if one word is one letter off (different) then the whole ELS matrix shifts over a space and the ELS sequences don't align any more. This is why I am not convinced that the Bible code exists, there are too many unknowns, and even with the Dead Sea Scrolls they are still not the originals. Just voicing my honest opinion.
P.S. I have never been able to find out which manuscripts Michael Drosnin used for his Bible Code ELSs. Do any of your books tell you that?
God Bless,
~Josh
*So much for the debate thread being 1-on-1*
What happens to the whole ELS theory when one single word in a Hebrew manuscript is spelt differently so as to be 1 or more letters longer or shorter than another manuscript's version? The claims leveled against the Dead Sea Scolls by atheists saying that there are thousands of differences with the Masoretic text (thus contradictions) is wrong, but they base it on one thing that is true: in books such as Isaiah alone there are over 2000 differences in spelling or gender change in words when compared to the later Massoretic text (which account for most of the differences - although there are entire words [and even sentance] differences).
It is my understanding that if one word is one letter off (different) then the whole ELS matrix shifts over a space and the ELS sequences don't align any more. This is why I am not convinced that the Bible code exists, there are too many unknowns, and even with the Dead Sea Scrolls they are still not the originals. Just voicing my honest opinion.
P.S. I have never been able to find out which manuscripts Michael Drosnin used for his Bible Code ELSs. Do any of your books tell you that?
God Bless,
~Josh