Eternal Security during the Great Tribulation?

[JM]

Will the saints spoken of in the Book of Revelations have eternal security? Before you answer, consider this:

Ephesus: " . . . thou hast left thy first love . . . . repent, and do the first works . . . ." (Revelation 2:4-5)

Pergamos: " . . . thou holdest fast My name, and hast not denied My faith . . . ." (2:13)

Thyatira: "But that which ye have already hold fast till I come." (2:25)

Sardis: "Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die . . . hold fast, and repent . . . ." (3:2-3)

Philadelphia: " . . . hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown." (3:11)

Interesting note, Thyatira doesn't exist in history and the Book of Revelations was rejected as early as 145 ad because of this fact, it was brought up again in 360's ad.

Peace.

 

[JM]

Times and Seasons

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

If we are going to be on earth during the Great Tribulation, why does Paul tell us that we have no need to know of the times and seasons? This comes on the heels of 1 Th. 4.

 

[Vic C.]

Re: Times and Seasons

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

If we are going to be on earth during the Great Tribulation, why does Paul tell us that we have no need to know of the times and seasons? This comes on the heels of 1 Th. 4.

No offense, but isn't that verse just a little out of it's context? It seems to take on a different meaning than you are suggesting if the whole passage is read, including 4:16-17. Oooh, determining when that trump of God blows is so important. I'm almost convinced it doesn't happen within the first 1/2 of the 70th. week.

What I do get from that passage is we need not be concerned with the timing of His gathering, that we have the assurance of not having to go through the Wrath. This whole passage is about The Day of the Lord, not the Great Tribulation.

 

[JM]

Re: Times and Seasons

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

If we are going to be on earth during the Great Tribulation, why does Paul tell us that we have no need to know of the times and seasons? This comes on the heels of 1 Th. 4.

No offense, but isn't that verse just a little out of it's context? It seems to take on a different meaning than you are suggesting if the whole passage is read, including 4:16-17. Oooh, determining when that trump of God blows is so important. I'm almost convinced it doesn't happen within the first 1/2 of the 70th. week.

What I do get from that passage is we need not be concerned with the timing of His gathering, that we have the assurance of not having to go through the Wrath. This whole passage is about The Day of the Lord, not the Great Tribulation.

No offense taken, I've admitted to not having studied end times before and that's why I asked the experts! lol

Thanks for the help, how about...

1 Thessalonians 5:1-5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye (ye=you) have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them (them meaning someone else) , as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

I'm sorry for the misquote.

Peace,

j

 

[Vic C.]

No offense taken, I've admitted to not having studied end times before and that's why I asked the experts! lol

Don't worry about it. We are looking at things from two different angles. If you know anything about photography, subjects photograph differently, depending on the angle of the light and camera position. 8-) One angle can bring out the texture and subtle differences; another angle can bring out the depth, foreground and background, etc.

Do what you'd like with that analogy. :wink:

 

[JM]

No offense taken, I've admitted to not having studied end times before and that's why I asked the experts! lol

Don't worry about it. We are looking at things from two different angles. If you know anything about photography, subjects photograph differently, depending on the angle of the light and camera position. 8-) One angle can bring out the texture and subtle differences; another angle can bring out the depth, foreground and background, etc.

Do what you'd like with that analogy. :wink:

That analogy was great! :-D

 

[Terral]

We have Eternal Security, But Kingdom Disciples Do NOT

Hi JM:

Thank you for starting this thread. You are asking the right questions:

JM >> Will the saints spoken of in the Book of Revelations have eternal security? Before you answer, consider this:

There is no need to consider anything written in the Book of Revelation itself. Christ tells you the answer in Matthew 24, when describing events relating to “Your Coming†and the “End of the Age†(Matthew 24:3).

"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.†Matthew 24:13-14.

All of those gathered to the ‘churches’ of Revelation 1-3 are called through the “gospel of the kingdom†which is NOT the gospel we preach today. The differences between the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ and our gospel for today is described here: ( http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=20385 ). While a dispensational shift took place 2000 Years ago causing the early rains (James 5:7) kingdom church to be ‘cut off’ (Revelation 20:4), this ‘dispensation of God’s grace’ (Ephesians 3:2) will end with our Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17) and the kingdom dispensation will start up again. That is when Elijah returns to restore all things (Matthew 17:10-11) and the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ again becomes “the gospel†preached on this earth. At that time Paul’s Gospel will become dormant, just like the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ is dormant right now. The key for understanding this is that the ‘preacher’ (Romans 10:14) is required for the ‘faith to faith’ (Romans 1:17) transaction to be possible. We receive the ‘faith of Jesus’ (Romans 3:26) today by ‘hearing’ (Romans 10:17) the Gospel itself, i.e., Paul’s “word of the cross†(1 Corinthians 1:18) gospel message or Gospel #2 from that post. When the Rapture takes place, then every evangelist will be taken and nobody will be able to receive the “faith of Jesus†by hearing any longer.

Elijah will receive the Holy Spirit from heaven just like Christ in the Jordan, because He will have delivered us like sealed letters to the Lord in that ‘day of redemption’ (Ephesians 4:30) and He will be free to then return to the awaiting Elijah. Only then will Elijah have the ‘spirit and power of Elijah’ (Luke 1:17) and he will once again begin preaching “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand,†just like John the Baptist in Matthew 3:2 in the Jordan east of Jerusalem. That will ‘begin’ the 1000 Years ‘Day of the Lord,’ which will also start the ‘times and epochs’ (1 Thessalonians 5:1-2) that Christ is talking about in Acts 1:6-7 where the kingdom is restored to Israel. That kingdom will endure the entire 1000 Years, until finally at the end Satan is released and his Beast comes to the Temple (Matthew 24:15), but only after this ‘gospel of the Kingdom’ goes to the whole world. True ‘eternal security’ will leave with the ‘body of Christ’ (Ephesians 4:12) the moment we are Raptured out of here (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

In the last days and that restored Kingdom of Israel Paul’s Gospel will become a counterfeit good news message, because the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ does includes works of water baptism (Mark 1:4-5, Acts 2:38) and laying of hands for the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:17, Acts 19:6). In that day false prophets will say that the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ MUST be accepted by faith apart from works, because of what Paul is saying to ‘us’ today (Ephesians 2:8-9). They will be mixing the ‘blood’ witness of Scripture (Pauline Epistles) with the ‘water’ witness (Kingdom Epistles) in the same exact way that false teachers are mixing the two together today. ¢â‚¬Å“Rightly Dividing†The Word of Truth (2 Timothy 2:15) means separating the blood (grace body) and water (kingdom bride) witnesses of Scripture from one another for the right dispensations (Peter = bride and Paul = body). We have eternal security today with lives hidden with Christ in God (Colossians 3:1-3), but those saved by the ‘water’ gospel (of the kingdom) will NOT have eternal security to the ‘end of the age.’

Thank you again for starting this thread,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[JM]

Sorry for creating a false divison, God's people are one and no difference in salvation can be found.