Prominent scientists are speaking out against Darwinian evolution, and they’re not even creationists.
Continue reading...
Continue reading...
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
-
Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
[__ Science __ ] Evolution’s Surprising New Critics
- Thread starter AIG.com
- Start date
daninthelionsden
Member
Evolution has so many holes. If it took millions of years for one species to become another, there should be billions of transitional fossils. When evolutionists couldn't adequately explain, they came up with sudden transition. Laughable.
Uncle J
Member
It's a directly observed process that we both fight against (e.g., antibiotic resistance) and exploit (e.g., domestication).
The evolution of new species has been observed and studied both in the lab and in the wild, many times. I suggest you take the time to get up to speed on the science before trying to argue against it.
Transitional fossils are abundant. But I have to ask....exactly how do you know what fossils do or don't exist? Are you a paleontologist? Do you have a degree in paleontology? Have you worked in paleontology? Do you subscribe to any paleontology journals?
daninthelionsden
Member
Then YOU point me to this plethora of evidence you claim exists.
Uncle J
Member
That's not a problem, but it would be nice if you answered the questions I asked you first.
Exactly how do you know what fossils do or don't exist? Are you a paleontologist? Do you have a degree in paleontology? Have you worked in paleontology? Do you subscribe to any paleontology journals?
daninthelionsden
Member
Do you want answers to satisfy your ego or to invalidate my position or both? I think you can point me to this evidence without either.......or can you?
Uncle J
Member
I'll take your dodge as a tacit admission that you have no education, experience, or qualifications in paleontology. Why you're so reluctant to admit such a basic thing is something only you know.
As for observed evolution, CLICK HERE to see over 90,000 published papers describing researchers' observations during lab experiments.
With the evolution of new species, it's been observed in lots of different taxa....
Finches
Fruit flies
Evolution of the mojavensis cluster of cactophilic Drosophila with descriptions of two new species - PubMed
The mojavensis cluster of the repleta species group of Drosophila (Drosophilidae: Diptera) consists of three species. One is newly described as D. navojoa. A second species, described here as D. arizonae, replaces D. arizonensis, which has become a junior subjective synonym for D. mojavensis...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Evolutionary experimentation through hybridization under laboratory condition in Drosophila: evidence for recombinational speciation - PubMed
Thus, the rapid divergence recorded in the chromosomes, karyotypes, body size and fitness traits of Cytoraces exhibit the early event of recombinational raciation / speciation in the evolution of the Cytoraces under laboratory conditions.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Whiptail lizards (in the lab)
Cichlids
Speciation via introgressive hybridization in East African cichlids? - PubMed
Speciation caused by introgressive hybridization occurs frequently in plants but its importance remains controversial in animal evolution. Here we report a case of introgressive hybridization between two ancient and genetically distinct species of Lake Tanganyika cichlids that led to the...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Cicadas
Reproductive character displacement and speciation in periodical cicadas, with description of new species, 13-year Magicicada neotredecem - PubMed
Acoustic mate-attracting signals of related sympatric, synchronic species are always distinguishable, but those of related allopatric species sometimes are not, thus suggesting that such signals may evolve to "reinforce" premating species isolation when similar species become sympatric. This...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Chronic speciation in periodical cicadas - PubMed
Allochronic speciation and reproductive character displacement are two intuitively attractive models of speciation. The first proposes that changes in the timing of life cycles produce new species, whereas the second suggests that speciation is due to the exaggeration of sexual isolation in...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Yeast
Hybrid speciation in experimental populations of yeast - PubMed
Most models of speciation require gradual change and geographic or ecological isolation for new species to arise. Homoploid hybrid speciation occurred readily between Saccharomyces cerevisiae and Saccharomyces paradoxus. Hybrids had high self-fertility (about 82%), low fertility when backcrossed...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Bacteria
Septic arthritis caused by a gram-negative bacterium representing a new species related to the Bordetella-Alcaligenes complex - PubMed
A knee-joint exudate culture yielded on two occasions a gram-negative bacterium. Regular methods for speciation did not provide an identification. The infection was successfully treated with ciprofloxacin. The unknown isolate, CCUG 36768, was subjected to further investigation, including 16S...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Goatsbeard
Sparrows
Apple maggot fly (in the process)
Evidence for inversion polymorphism related to sympatric host race formation in the apple maggot fly, Rhagoletis pomonella - PubMed
Evidence suggests that the apple maggot, Rhagoletis pomonella (Diptera: Tephritidae) is undergoing sympatric speciation (i.e., divergence without geographic isolation) in the process of shifting and adapting to a new host plant. Prior to the introduction of cultivated apples (Malus pumila) in...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
For "transitional fossils", let's be specific in order to minimize misunderstandings. A transitional fossil is typically defined as a specimen that exhibits a mixture of traits from different taxa. Do you agree with that definition?
daninthelionsden
Member
Thank you.I'll take your dodge as a tacit admission that you have no education, experience, or qualifications in paleontology. Why you're so reluctant to admit such a basic thing is something only you know.
As for observed evolution, CLICK HERE to see over 90,000 published papers describing researchers' observations during lab experiments.
With the evolution of new species, it's been observed in lots of different taxa....
Finches
Fruit flies
Evolution of the mojavensis cluster of cactophilic Drosophila with descriptions of two new species - PubMed
The mojavensis cluster of the repleta species group of Drosophila (Drosophilidae: Diptera) consists of three species. One is newly described as D. navojoa. A second species, described here as D. arizonae, replaces D. arizonensis, which has become a junior subjective synonym for D. mojavensis...
Evolutionary experimentation through hybridization under laboratory condition in Drosophila: evidence for recombinational speciation - PubMed
Thus, the rapid divergence recorded in the chromosomes, karyotypes, body size and fitness traits of Cytoraces exhibit the early event of recombinational raciation / speciation in the evolution of the Cytoraces under laboratory conditions.
Whiptail lizards (in the lab)
Cichlids
Speciation via introgressive hybridization in East African cichlids? - PubMed
Speciation caused by introgressive hybridization occurs frequently in plants but its importance remains controversial in animal evolution. Here we report a case of introgressive hybridization between two ancient and genetically distinct species of Lake Tanganyika cichlids that led to the...
Cicadas
Reproductive character displacement and speciation in periodical cicadas, with description of new species, 13-year Magicicada neotredecem - PubMed
Acoustic mate-attracting signals of related sympatric, synchronic species are always distinguishable, but those of related allopatric species sometimes are not, thus suggesting that such signals may evolve to "reinforce" premating species isolation when similar species become sympatric. This...
Chronic speciation in periodical cicadas - PubMed
Allochronic speciation and reproductive character displacement are two intuitively attractive models of speciation. The first proposes that changes in the timing of life cycles produce new species, whereas the second suggests that speciation is due to the exaggeration of sexual isolation in...
Yeast
Hybrid speciation in experimental populations of yeast - PubMed
Most models of speciation require gradual change and geographic or ecological isolation for new species to arise. Homoploid hybrid speciation occurred readily between Saccharomyces cerevisiae and Saccharomyces paradoxus. Hybrids had high self-fertility (about 82%), low fertility when backcrossed...
Bacteria
Septic arthritis caused by a gram-negative bacterium representing a new species related to the Bordetella-Alcaligenes complex - PubMed
A knee-joint exudate culture yielded on two occasions a gram-negative bacterium. Regular methods for speciation did not provide an identification. The infection was successfully treated with ciprofloxacin. The unknown isolate, CCUG 36768, was subjected to further investigation, including 16S...
Goatsbeard
Sparrows
Apple maggot fly (in the process)
Evidence for inversion polymorphism related to sympatric host race formation in the apple maggot fly, Rhagoletis pomonella - PubMed
Evidence suggests that the apple maggot, Rhagoletis pomonella (Diptera: Tephritidae) is undergoing sympatric speciation (i.e., divergence without geographic isolation) in the process of shifting and adapting to a new host plant. Prior to the introduction of cultivated apples (Malus pumila) in...
For "transitional fossils", let's be specific in order to minimize misunderstandings. A transitional fossil is typically defined as a specimen that exhibits a mixture of traits from different taxa. Do you agree with that definition?
daninthelionsden
Member
A transitional fossils should show the migration of traits/characteristics/DNA from one species as it becomes another gradually taken place over the eons of time evolutionists insist upon.I'll take your dodge as a tacit admission that you have no education, experience, or qualifications in paleontology. Why you're so reluctant to admit such a basic thing is something only you know.
As for observed evolution, CLICK HERE to see over 90,000 published papers describing researchers' observations during lab experiments.
With the evolution of new species, it's been observed in lots of different taxa....
Finches
Fruit flies
Evolution of the mojavensis cluster of cactophilic Drosophila with descriptions of two new species - PubMed
The mojavensis cluster of the repleta species group of Drosophila (Drosophilidae: Diptera) consists of three species. One is newly described as D. navojoa. A second species, described here as D. arizonae, replaces D. arizonensis, which has become a junior subjective synonym for D. mojavensis...
Evolutionary experimentation through hybridization under laboratory condition in Drosophila: evidence for recombinational speciation - PubMed
Thus, the rapid divergence recorded in the chromosomes, karyotypes, body size and fitness traits of Cytoraces exhibit the early event of recombinational raciation / speciation in the evolution of the Cytoraces under laboratory conditions.
Whiptail lizards (in the lab)
Cichlids
Speciation via introgressive hybridization in East African cichlids? - PubMed
Speciation caused by introgressive hybridization occurs frequently in plants but its importance remains controversial in animal evolution. Here we report a case of introgressive hybridization between two ancient and genetically distinct species of Lake Tanganyika cichlids that led to the...
Cicadas
Reproductive character displacement and speciation in periodical cicadas, with description of new species, 13-year Magicicada neotredecem - PubMed
Acoustic mate-attracting signals of related sympatric, synchronic species are always distinguishable, but those of related allopatric species sometimes are not, thus suggesting that such signals may evolve to "reinforce" premating species isolation when similar species become sympatric. This...
Chronic speciation in periodical cicadas - PubMed
Allochronic speciation and reproductive character displacement are two intuitively attractive models of speciation. The first proposes that changes in the timing of life cycles produce new species, whereas the second suggests that speciation is due to the exaggeration of sexual isolation in...
Yeast
Hybrid speciation in experimental populations of yeast - PubMed
Most models of speciation require gradual change and geographic or ecological isolation for new species to arise. Homoploid hybrid speciation occurred readily between Saccharomyces cerevisiae and Saccharomyces paradoxus. Hybrids had high self-fertility (about 82%), low fertility when backcrossed...
Bacteria
Septic arthritis caused by a gram-negative bacterium representing a new species related to the Bordetella-Alcaligenes complex - PubMed
A knee-joint exudate culture yielded on two occasions a gram-negative bacterium. Regular methods for speciation did not provide an identification. The infection was successfully treated with ciprofloxacin. The unknown isolate, CCUG 36768, was subjected to further investigation, including 16S...
Goatsbeard
Sparrows
Apple maggot fly (in the process)
Evidence for inversion polymorphism related to sympatric host race formation in the apple maggot fly, Rhagoletis pomonella - PubMed
Evidence suggests that the apple maggot, Rhagoletis pomonella (Diptera: Tephritidae) is undergoing sympatric speciation (i.e., divergence without geographic isolation) in the process of shifting and adapting to a new host plant. Prior to the introduction of cultivated apples (Malus pumila) in...
For "transitional fossils", let's be specific in order to minimize misunderstandings. A transitional fossil is typically defined as a specimen that exhibits a mixture of traits from different taxa. Do you agree with that definition?
Uncle J
Member
You're quite welcome.
Uncle J
Member
Um, that's not any sort of definition of "transitional fossil" I've ever heard of.
Again, let's be specific. If say, reptiles and mammals shared a common ancestry, then we would expect to find fossil specimens that have a mixture of reptilian and mammalian characteristics, right?
daninthelionsden
Member
But not just that only. If a reptile slowly became a mammal, then only one fossil or type of fossil only ponts to a "platypus"type of species. It does not confirm evolution unless there are fossils showing stages of this evolution. If it took millions of years there should be billions of fossils showing this beyond question. Why not?
Uncle J
Member
Does this mean we agree that transitional fossils exist?
As far as "confirming evolution", I've already done that in my Post #7 (the multiple cases of evolution of new species). Therefore, that evolution occurs is simply reality. What transitional fossils can tell us is how it occurred in the past, e.g., by what specific pathways.
daninthelionsden
Member
Maybe, but I want more than that to make an accurate assessment.
Uncle J
Member
Like what?
daninthelionsden
Member
More transitional fossils showing the gradual changes necessary for evolution to be a fact rather than a theory.
Uncle J
Member
Again, evolution is a fact. We see it happening right before our eyes, all the time.
And again, transitional fossils can give us info on how evolution occurred in the past, but isn't needed to show that evolution occurs; observing it directly takes care of that.
Is there any specific group of organisms and their fossil record you're particularly interested in?
Barbarian
Member
Often, it happens much faster than that. Even many creationists such as Answers in Genesis, no longer deny the fact of speciation.
As YE creationist Dr. Kurt Wise demonstrates, there are countless number of transitional fossils, which he admits are "very good evidence for macroevolutionary theory."
As a wise man once said, people are usually down on things they aren't up on. Do some investigation and learn.
Barbarian
Member
Observed changes in population genomes does that. Evolution is an observed fact. But common descent is not evolution; it's a consequence of evolution. And YE creationist Dr. Kurt Wise says...
Evidences for Darwin’s second expectation — of stratomorphic intermediate species —include such species as Baragwanathia27(between rhyniophytes and lycopods), Pikaia28 (between echinoderms and chordates), Purgatorius29 (between the tree shrews and the primates), and Proconsul30 (between the non-hominoid primates and the hominoids). Darwin’s third expectation —of higher-taxon stratomorphic intermediates — has been confirmed by such examples as the mammal-like reptile groups31 between the reptiles and the mammals,and the phenacodontids32 between the horses and their presumed ancestors. Darwin’s fourth expectation — of stratomorphic series— has been confirmed by such examples as the early bird series,33the tetrapod series,34,35 the whale series,36 the various mammal series of the Cenozoic37 (for example, the horse series, the camel series, the elephant series, the pig series, the titanothere series,etc.), the Cantius and Plesiadapus primate series,38 and the hominid series.39 Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact.
Kurt Wise Toward a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms
Barbarian
Member
No, there are dozens of them. Would you like to learn about some of them?
And there are. One of the more interesting series of transitionals involves the evolution of the mammalian lower jaw and ear from the reptilian form by gradual changes. Would you like to see that?
And as Dr. Wise admits, there are. The Karoo formation, for example, has countless billions of such fossils. Which is pretty impressive, since fossilization is a rare event for vertebrates; most of them decay and are gone in a decade or so, even if buried.