Excluded rather than worthy

[PeterJens]

Some individuals emphasise inclusion of all with faith in Jesus. They insist that proving oneself in Christ shows a self righteous heresy of earning reward not faith and recieving a gift.

Scripture takes the positive proof of failure rather than earning worth.

So you have love and faith, ie in the Kingdom except one's life style shows a lack of love and continual sin, ie not saved.

We walk in grace with cleansed hearts, known only to ourselves, yet the outside show demonstrates the in ward reality.

Talk of earning reality is absurd, it is either there or not, but being careful to be honest and open is our walk.

Closed believers show there own reality, exclusion, which they could resolve if they will listen. God bless you

 

[PeterJens]

OSAS seems reassuring.

When Peter denied Jesus, what was so sad?

Peter knew Jesus loved him, and Peter loved Jesus. This was the profound reality, this is salvation. Unbreakable when grasped, light in the dark.

OSAS is a kind of justifying unbelief and failure to have Jesus's reality in our lives. It is simple, it is profound, but it is foundationally obedient.

Nothing God asks of us is either impossible or against us.

 

[JLB]

OSAS seems reassuring.

When Peter denied Jesus, what was so sad?

Peter knew Jesus loved him, and Peter loved Jesus. This was the profound reality, this is salvation. Unbreakable when grasped, light in the dark.

OSAS is a kind of justifying unbelief and failure to have Jesus's reality in our lives. It is simple, it is profound, but it is foundationally obedient.

Nothing God asks of us is either impossible or against us.

Failure to have Jesus’s reality in our lives is a profound perspective.


In today’s culture where anyone seems to have their own reality, there own “truth”, based on how they feel or how they decide see things from their own cultural perspective is a testimony as to how devastating sin truly is.




JLB

 

[atpollard]

Absent even a single verse of scripture to anchor all of this opinion to, I am not even sure exactly what point is being made here?

Could you at least define OSAS as you are using the term, because my bible still says:

• [John 3:16-18 NASB] 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
• [John 10:27-30 NASB] 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one."
• [Ephesians 1:13-14 NASB] 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.
• [Ephesians 2:4-8 NASB] 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God;
• [Romans 8:28-30 NASB] 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

All of which seem to give reason for us to believe that “He who began a good work in you will perfect it” [Philippians 1:6] ... or the Saints will indeed Persevere to the end.

 

[PeterJens]

Absent even a single verse of scripture to anchor all of this opinion to, I am not even sure exactly what point is being made here?

Could you at least define OSAS as you are using the term, because my bible still says:

• [John 3:16-18 NASB] 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
• [John 10:27-30 NASB] 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one."
• [Ephesians 1:13-14 NASB] 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.
• [Ephesians 2:4-8 NASB] 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God;
• [Romans 8:28-30 NASB] 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to [His] purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

All of which seem to give reason for us to believe that “He who began a good work in you will perfect it” [Philippians 1:6] ... or the Saints will indeed Persevere to the end.

You make a good point, about things not being quoted with scripture. The reason is because once you establish the core concepts, the foundation and layers that exist in an argument, you can begin to point out relationships between them, to show other perspectives.

So the verses you quote presuppose an exclusive all encompassing context.
So I could say, those who believe in Jesus(at any point in their lives) have eternal life.

The problem with this, is it separates out the reality of a living relationship from an event in time. By doing this people then justify faith or a belief is a magical event, which takes the sinner and puts a covering over them, which is eternal and safe, with no possibility of the consequences of sin touching the believer even as they sin.

I did not believe people could take things this far until I had a discussion with hyper grace followers who actively worked through the idea of a believer murdering someone and they were forgiven before, during and after, no matter the state of their heart and had no need to repent, feel remorse or make restitution. Now they were very astute ex-evangelicals who used to be from a reformed, righteous walking fellowships, who felt this obedience was the height of legalism and being a pharisee.

3 of us have been actively discussing in years past with such believers.
It makes one aware, the logical consequences of such doctrines cannot be taken lightly or ignored, as some will go there, while claiming to follow the same faith as us.
Clearly they do not, and do not have a view of the body soul and spirit as one whole that we would hold the scripture teaches.

 

[JLB]

I did not believe people could take things this far until I had a discussion with hyper grace followers who actively worked through the idea of a believer murdering someone and they were forgiven before, during and after, no matter the state of their heart and had no need to repent, feel remorse or make restitution. Now they were very astute ex-evangelicals who used to be from a reformed, righteous walking fellowships, who felt this obedience was the height of legalism and being a pharisee.

3 of us have been actively discussing in years past with such believers.
It makes one aware, the logical consequences of such doctrines cannot be taken lightly or ignored, as some will go there, while claiming to follow the same faith as us.
Clearly they do not, and do not have a view of the body soul and spirit as one whole that we would hold the scripture teaches.

Amen.


In addition, any discussion of this topic must include the understanding that their is initial salvation, that is received by believing the Gospel which occurs by faith; our initial faith.

Then their is receiving the salvation of our soul, at the end of our faith, or as an end result of our faith on the Day of Judgement when we stand before our Lord, to give an account for the gift of His life He gave us, and how we stewarded that free gift.


In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9


I have found from experience over many years of discussion, that those who promote the OSAS doctrine, have no interest in discussing these things, as they dismiss them as the teachings of “works salvationist’s”.


Matthew 25 is a very good source for understanding what Jesus expects from His people when He returns.


I can start a thread on this subject if you like.



JLB

 

[PeterJens]

Amen.


In addition, any discussion of this topic must include the understanding that their is initial salvation, that is received by believing the Gospel which occurs by faith; our initial faith.

Then their is receiving the salvation of our soul, at the end of our faith, or as an end result of our faith on the Day of Judgement when we stand before our Lord, to give an account for the gift of His life He gave us, and how we stewarded that free gift.


In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:6-9


I have found from experience over many years of discussion, that those who promote the OSAS doctrine, have no interest in discussing these things, as they dismiss them as the teachings of “works salvationist’s”.


Matthew 25 is a very good source for understanding what Jesus expects from His people when He returns.


I can start a thread on this subject if you like.



JLB

Starting a thread on Jesus's expectations sounds a good idea.

 

[GodsGrace]

You make a good point, about things not being quoted with scripture. The reason is because once you establish the core concepts, the foundation and layers that exist in an argument, you can begin to point out relationships between them, to show other perspectives.

So the verses you quote presuppose an exclusive all encompassing context.
So I could say, those who believe in Jesus(at any point in their lives) have eternal life.

The problem with this, is it separates out the reality of a living relationship from an event in time. By doing this people then justify faith or a belief is a magical event, which takes the sinner and puts a covering over them, which is eternal and safe, with no possibility of the consequences of sin touching the believer even as they sin.

I did not believe people could take things this far until I had a discussion with hyper grace followers who actively worked through the idea of a believer murdering someone and they were forgiven before, during and after, no matter the state of their heart and had no need to repent, feel remorse or make restitution. Now they were very astute ex-evangelicals who used to be from a reformed, righteous walking fellowships, who felt this obedience was the height of legalism and being a pharisee.

3 of us have been actively discussing in years past with such believers.
It makes one aware, the logical consequences of such doctrines cannot be taken lightly or ignored, as some will go there, while claiming to follow the same faith as us.
Clearly they do not, and do not have a view of the body soul and spirit as one whole that we would hold the scripture teaches.

Hey Peter,,,,
I'm starting to have my doubts as to this idea of being born again and if it's even biblical in the way that it's used these days.

I can't remember reading too much about this in the early church.
They spoke about following Jesus and living good lives and doing good, etc.

Some like chapter 8 of Romans and seem to forget all the places where Paul spoke of what not to do.

I don't know.
What do YOU think about this term "born again"?
(not that I don't agree that it's necessary).

 

[JLB]

Hey Peter,,,,
I'm starting to have my doubts as to this idea of being born again and if it's even biblical in the way that it's used these days.

I can't remember reading too much about this in the early church.
They spoke about following Jesus and living good lives and doing good, etc.

Some like chapter 8 of Romans and seem to forget all the places where Paul spoke of what not to do.

I don't know.
What do YOU think about this term "born again"?
(not that I don't agree that it's necessary).

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23


We are born again by obeying the Gospel command to repent.




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:22-23


We are born again by obeying the Gospel command to repent.




JLB

Hi JLB,,,
Yes,,, I DO believe we are born again....
once of physical birth
and once of spiritual birth

Jesus Himself said this is necessary in John 3:3, 5

But I believe we're beginning to misunderstand what this means.
Too many Christians stating that the commandments, and thus the Moral Law
have been abolished.

Maybe the misunderstanding is in the phrase "no longer under the law"....?
I have two members right now telling me this.

 

[JLB]

Hi JLB,,,
Yes,,, I DO believe we are born again....
once of physical birth
and once of spiritual birth

Amen!!!

 

[JLB]

But I believe we're beginning to misunderstand what this means.
Too many Christians stating that the commandments, and thus the Moral Law
have been abolished.

If I were you, I wouldn’t use the phrase “moral law”, as you will spend all your time defending a term that is not found in scripture.


God‘s Kingdom laws and commandments that govern His eternal kingdom did not originate with Moses.

Therefore, just because the law of Moses was abolished doesn’t mean God’s eternal law of love was abolished.


His Kingdom laws and commandments are eternal and are all about love.


God is love.

His eternal Kingdom is governed by love.

Obeying His commandments are how we express love.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


Anything that causes harm to anyone, violates His law of love.


one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Romans 13:8-10


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

If I were you, I wouldn’t use the phrase “moral law”, as you will spend all your time defending a term that is not found in scripture.


God‘s Kingdom laws and commandments that govern His eternal kingdom did not originate with Moses.

Therefore, just because the law of Moses was abolished doesn’t mean God’s eternal law of love was abolished.


His Kingdom laws and commandments are eternal and are all about love.


God is love.

His eternal Kingdom is governed by love.

Obeying His commandments are how we express love.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


Anything that causes harm to anyone, violates His law of love.


one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Romans 13:8-10


JLB

Of course I agree with all.
When I ask if it is necessary to obey the commandments
I get no reply. Isn't the answer a simple yes?

Maybe all the studying I did to be able to teach some stuff didn't do me so good?
I thought everyone knew about the different types of Law in the O.T.

Maybe I'll start a thread....

 

[JLB]

When I ask if it is necessary to obey the commandments
I get no reply. Isn't the answer a simple yes?

Yes.


Keeping His Commandments are how we remain “in Christ”.



Now, someone may ask, which commandments are we required to obey?


Depending on who you ask, you may get a variety of answers.



If you ask someone in Messianic Judaism, you may get a variety
of answers. Here is an article from Jews for Jesus —

https://jewsforjesus.org/publications/havurah/havurah-v08-n04/about-torah-observance/

Here are some interesting statements from the article.

• Among those groups that are sometimes considered part of the Messianic movement are those organizations and congregations that call themselves "Torah-observant," or that emphasize obedience to the Law of Moses by another term. These groups can vary from the theologically orthodox regarding the person of Messiah and the Trinity, to theologically aberrant. Essentially, these groups present themselves as following the Tanakh (Old Testament), thereby living a life they believe more closely resembles that of first-century followers of Yeshua, or more in keeping with God's will for today.

• It is no longer possible to keep all 613 laws because we no longer have a Temple, or a priesthood, or live as a theocracy in the Land of Israel. Because of this, the Torah-observant groups end up being extremely selective in their "law observance." For the most part, the emphasis is on holy days, Shabbat, and festivals, with perhaps some attention given to other parts of the Torah. In essence, these are not so much Torah-observant as they are festival-observant groups. And since the Temple and priesthood are gone and a majority of Jews live in the diaspora (outside the land of Israel), even the festivals, for instance, must be observed differently than they were in biblical times. Perhaps without their realizing it, Torah-observant groups must either depend on rabbinic tradition or construct their own traditions. For instance, members of such groups do not send their men to appear before the Lord in Jerusalem, as required in the Law of Moses, nor do they offer sacrifices. Moreover, among the commandments of the Law are penalties for its violation, including the death penalty in many cases. Torah-observant groups do not apply the death penalty to those who are not Torah-observant. Indeed they cannot, for if they did, they would be subject in modern society to criminal charges in a court of law! We no longer live in a theocracy subject to the penalties of God's Law.

• One gets the impression that, far more than they emphasize faithfulness to Messiah, these groups emphasize Torah-observance as their distinctive, and in fact imply that they are being more obedient to God, or have a deeper spirituality, than other believers in Yeshua. Perhaps they would argue that their obedience to the Torah is faithfulness to Messiah, but there is a distinct imbalance in their approach. Inadvertently, perhaps, they have created a two-tier system of believers: the more spiritual ones who observe the Law and the less spiritual ones who do not. Not only does this contradict Scripture, but it also separates these groups from the rest of the Body of Messiah in an unhealthy way. (Matthew 7:1-5; James 4:11-12, 17; Romans 14)

JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes.


Keeping His Commandments are how we remain “in Christ”.



Now, someone may ask, which commandments are we required to obey?


Depending on who you ask, you may get a variety of answers.



If you ask someone in Messianic Judaism, you may get a variety
of answers. Here is an article from Jews for Jesus —

https://jewsforjesus.org/publications/havurah/havurah-v08-n04/about-torah-observance/

Here are some interesting statements from the article.

• Among those groups that are sometimes considered part of the Messianic movement are those organizations and congregations that call themselves "Torah-observant," or that emphasize obedience to the Law of Moses by another term. These groups can vary from the theologically orthodox regarding the person of Messiah and the Trinity, to theologically aberrant. Essentially, these groups present themselves as following the Tanakh (Old Testament), thereby living a life they believe more closely resembles that of first-century followers of Yeshua, or more in keeping with God's will for today.

• It is no longer possible to keep all 613 laws because we no longer have a Temple, or a priesthood, or live as a theocracy in the Land of Israel. Because of this, the Torah-observant groups end up being extremely selective in their "law observance." For the most part, the emphasis is on holy days, Shabbat, and festivals, with perhaps some attention given to other parts of the Torah. In essence, these are not so much Torah-observant as they are festival-observant groups. And since the Temple and priesthood are gone and a majority of Jews live in the diaspora (outside the land of Israel), even the festivals, for instance, must be observed differently than they were in biblical times. Perhaps without their realizing it, Torah-observant groups must either depend on rabbinic tradition or construct their own traditions. For instance, members of such groups do not send their men to appear before the Lord in Jerusalem, as required in the Law of Moses, nor do they offer sacrifices. Moreover, among the commandments of the Law are penalties for its violation, including the death penalty in many cases. Torah-observant groups do not apply the death penalty to those who are not Torah-observant. Indeed they cannot, for if they did, they would be subject in modern society to criminal charges in a court of law! We no longer live in a theocracy subject to the penalties of God's Law.

• One gets the impression that, far more than they emphasize faithfulness to Messiah, these groups emphasize Torah-observance as their distinctive, and in fact imply that they are being more obedient to God, or have a deeper spirituality, than other believers in Yeshua. Perhaps they would argue that their obedience to the Torah is faithfulness to Messiah, but there is a distinct imbalance in their approach. Inadvertently, perhaps, they have created a two-tier system of believers: the more spiritual ones who observe the Law and the less spiritual ones who do not. Not only does this contradict Scripture, but it also separates these groups from the rest of the Body of Messiah in an unhealthy way. (Matthew 7:1-5; James 4:11-12, 17; Romans 14)

JLB

True. Good post.
Hebrews 6:4-6 comes to mind.
How can one go back to the Law of Moses once they have met Jesus?
This is religion and salvation by works and NOT representative of the relationship God wishes to have with us.

As both you and for_his_glory have stated,,,,it is no longer possible to observe the Law of Moses for the reasons stated....no more priests, no more temple and the fact that we live in a different society.

This also explains why some of the Laws of Moses have become obsolete.

 

[PeterJens]

Hey Peter,,,,
I'm starting to have my doubts as to this idea of being born again and if it's even biblical in the way that it's used these days.

I can't remember reading too much about this in the early church.
They spoke about following Jesus and living good lives and doing good, etc.

Some like chapter 8 of Romans and seem to forget all the places where Paul spoke of what not to do.

I don't know.
What do YOU think about this term "born again"?
(not that I don't agree that it's necessary).

You are right to question "born again".
Sadly I think you are right, people miss-understand the emphasis.
Jesus put a simple spiritual reality around finding Him, the gate and walking the path, being the chosen, the elect. He wanted to encourage the core believers to say their enthusiasm was not their own, but that which God himself had planted.

What some have turned it into is a super-spiritual turning a mortal individual into an eternal being who can never fail. I think rather this is filling the heart with love that resolves the contradictions to how we behave in different settings and brings consistency to who we are and how we behave everywhere.

Put this another way. People as they grow, in each situation behave differently to fit in with the politics and emotions of the situation. It results in a situation that the mafia know about, friendly family life with love and encouragement with violent murder in work. If you resolve the individual to one person, the two behaviours destroy each other. So what they are is just a contradiction, every emotion and value system destroyed by the other parts of their life.

God in believers literally fills the whole, so each situation is resolved and consistent, a complete person who is who they believe themselves to be, from their heart to their social display. And what is the foundation of this all, that changes everything? Love through the cross, that conquers and puts in place all selfish desire, selfish ambition, power, politics, superiority. But this power is nothing without faith, and knowing Jesus is the Christ, and the cross is real, and He resolves everything. And this is being born again, starting life with Jesus and God in focus. And it all works, because in the quiet place, where no one else can see, we have Him there. These are real emotional laws, reality.

It is also why showing righteousness destroys us, because it does not reinforce the reality of Christ, but the social show, which encourages sin and self importance and self worth, whether we are aware of it or not. We are so fragile and so susceptible to being corrupted, we have to be alone, and know the internal reality in Him is as real as the external, because that is who we are. God bless you

I have to say I used to think born again was more spiritual, other worldly, but now I see it is both spiritual reality and emotional reality in our lives. It is also why people change, radically, and they can no longer behave certain ways, because they have become a consistent whole in the Lord, not a contradictory set of behaviours that do not add up.

 

[GodsGrace]

You are right to question "born again".
Sadly I think you are right, people miss-understand the emphasis.
Jesus put a simple spiritual reality around finding Him, the gate and walking the path, being the chosen, the elect. He wanted to encourage the core believers to say their enthusiasm was not their own, but that which God himself had planted.

Jesus said we must be born from above. This is good.
I just don't know if we all know what it means anymore.
To some it just means that we "accept" Jesus....
but then I hear that it means they're safe, in any and all cases.
Seems like Jesus did it all, so we don't have much left to do.

As to the planting...
Yes...God always makes the first move.
He's more than happy to have the Holy Spirit indwelling within us.
God does not want sacrifice, but our heart.
All we need to do is open our heart to Him and enter he will.
Rev. 3:20

But is that it?
Is that the end of it?
Do we have a role to play?
I'm on a different thread right now hearing some say that all of the Law of Moses has been abolished,,,including the Moral Law. GOD is the Moral Law...how could it be abolished !
Could we abolish God?

What some have turned it into is a super-spiritual turning a mortal individual into an eternal being who can never fail. I think rather this is filling the heart with love that resolves the contradictions to how we behave in different settings and brings consistency to who we are and how we behave everywhere.

Put this another way. People as they grow, in each situation behave differently to fit in with the politics and emotions of the situation. It results in a situation that the mafia know about, friendly family life with love and encouragement with violent murder in work. If you resolve the individual to one person, the two behaviours destroy each other. So what they are is just a contradiction, every emotion and value system destroyed by the other parts of their life.

I think what you're saying is not to make believe.
Believe what you live and live what you believe.
Yes, I think this is what I'm talking about.

God in believers literally fills the whole, so each situation is resolved and consistent, a complete person who is who they believe themselves to be, from their heart to their social display. And what is the foundation of this all, that changes everything? Love through the cross, that conquers and puts in place all selfish desire, selfish ambition, power, politics, superiority. But this power is nothing without faith, and knowing Jesus is the Christ, and the cross is real, and He resolves everything. And this is being born again, starting life with Jesus and God in focus. And it all works, because in the quiet place, where no one else can see, we have Him there. These are real emotional laws, reality.

Yes...well said.
Faith is the key. Love is the key.
Sometimes I might do something selfish,,,,
but at least I know it and at least I feel guilty about it.
I'm told I shouldn't feel guilty....but I do and I'd rather listen to God.

Right. Being born again is not the end of some journey...it's the beginning of a walk that should
last our whole life. And with respect and honor to God for what He is and what He has done.

It is also why showing righteousness destroys us, because it does not reinforce the reality of Christ, but the social show, which encourages sin and self importance and self worth, whether we are aware of it or not. We are so fragile and so susceptible to being corrupted, we have to be alone, and know the internal reality in Him is as real as the external, because that is who we are. God bless you

I have to say I used to think born again was more spiritual, other worldly, but now I see it is both spiritual reality and emotional reality in our lives. It is also why people change, radically, and they can no longer behave certain ways, because they have become a consistent whole in the Lord, not a contradictory set of behaviours that do not add up.

Amen.

 

[PeterJens]

Jesus said we must be born from above. This is good.
I just don't know if we all know what it means anymore.
To some it just means that we "accept" Jesus....
but then I hear that it means they're safe, in any and all cases.
Seems like Jesus did it all, so we don't have much left to do.

As to the planting...
Yes...God always makes the first move.
He's more than happy to have the Holy Spirit indwelling within us.
God does not want sacrifice, but our heart.
All we need to do is open our heart to Him and enter he will.
Rev. 3:20

But is that it?
Is that the end of it?
Do we have a role to play?
I'm on a different thread right now hearing some say that all of the Law of Moses has been abolished,,,including the Moral Law. GOD is the Moral Law...how could it be abolished !
Could we abolish God?


I think what you're saying is not to make believe.
Believe what you live and live what you believe.
Yes, I think this is what I'm talking about.


Yes...well said.
Faith is the key. Love is the key.
Sometimes I might do something selfish,,,,
but at least I know it and at least I feel guilty about it.
I'm told I shouldn't feel guilty....but I do and I'd rather listen to God.

Right. Being born again is not the end of some journey...it's the beginning of a walk that should
last our whole life. And with respect and honor to God for what He is and what He has done.


Amen.

GOD is the Moral Law...how could it be abolished !

Anyone who thinks morality is about law is not moral or knows love or knows Jesus.
The law is a linguistic way of verbalising harm and damage which is beyond that which can be ignored, it has to be reversed or paid for.

People talk emotionally without realising it. The problem is their behaviour makes them feel bad, so remove the cause of feeling bad, rules or conscience or harm done to others and just forgive yourself. The problem is the reverse of this behaviour is giving up the right for justice when one is the victim, that you accept you have no rights and others can do what they like to you without any comeback.

It is only sin that speaks like this, the gospel of the anti-christ. If I jump up, with a machine gun and kill everyone around me, that is as legitimate as standing up in joy and blessing them. And it is middle class, security soaked idiots who speak like this, because all they have is their petty hurts and troubles and want to pat themselves on the back as being ok. Self indulgence and greed are not sin, they say to themselves, they deserve it.

If you live alone and have no close relationships, it is possible to invent for yourself a world of delusion and security that has no practical use in the real world. Unfortunately we are now creating more and more people like this, who think the echo chamber of guilt is our problem not love and morality, they can remove all morality references not realising what they truly means. Poor lost souls.

 

[JLB]

Right. Being born again is not the end of some journey...it's the beginning of a walk that should
last our whole life

Yes our whole eternal life.

God has an eternity planned and desires His children to be a part of it.



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes our whole eternal life.

God has an eternity planned and desires His children to be a part of it.



JLB

Jesus said to repent because the Kingdom of Heaven was at hand.
Matthew 4:17

The Kingdom of Heaven begins here on earth...
for those that can see it.
John 3:3
3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”