Exorcisms, & The Teachings of the Roman Catholic Church

[Lewis]

Who on this board has a belief in Exorcisms by the Roman Catholic Church ?
I don't think the Catholics have any power to do this. I was watching them perform one on TV lastnight. That is why I am talking about this, because it got me to thinking. Go to the link that I provided below, and read the rest of this stuff.


The Catholic Church has made it a practice to "externalize" most of the spiritual elements in Christianity. This is necessary because those who cannot discern spiritually must have visible external signs of the supposed internal predisposition of people. The priests perform the rituals as a sign of external emotional confirmation that those priests know what they are doing. But although those priests are sincere, the ceremonies and rituals are not authentic and carry no power whatsoever.

Unfortunately, external signs are not a spiritual guarantee of anything. Nor is sincerity. The Catholic Church has several rituals to "make" the demon supposedly go out of a person. But those rituals rely on the claimed strength of the Catholic Priest who denies that Jesus is the The Christ, that is...the Christ who can save us by having faith in Him alone PLUS NOTHING. People who use the priests to perform rituals are putting their own personal faith in those priests and in those rituals, but not in Jesus Christ himself.

Demons are not influenced by Catholic Rituals in the least. We have heard of stories of priests becoming affected for having tried the Catholic Rituals because they contain actually NO spiritual power, if those priests really do not know Jesus Christ (and the vast majority - according to the Bible) do Not seem to.

In most of the exorcism rituals, the Demons merely pretend to leave, and this makes the priest happy, and the people temporarily happy...because they think something has truly happened. The the same kind of thing that Jesus described often occurs - in the person being exorcised :

http://www.exorthodoxforchrist.com/exor ... riests.htm

 

[CatholicXian]

You watched a Catholic exorcism on TV? :-?

I'm doubtful it was authentic. Priests don't publicize exorcisms like that... and your link starts off by referencing a MOVIE... hardly a credible source of authentic information.



So did the Apostles not really cast out demons in the name of Jesus? Do you doubt the words of Sacred Scripture?

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

Interesting, do believe “Exorcisms†can take place, however? Now when I ask that question I don’t mean in the way Catholics are portrayed in movies and television. I myself wonder if people can be demon possessed today and if mature Christians can “exorcise†demons out of a possessed person.

Of course on a funny note when I think of exorcisms I think of two movies:

Ace Ventura: Pet Detective and Poltergeist

I think of Ace Ventura: Pet Detective because in the movie Ace Ventura says:

“[as Tangina Barrons, from Poltergeist]….I have exorcised the demons… this house is clear.â€Â

(Source of quote: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Ace_Ventura:_Pet_Detective)

Anyway, back the seriousness of the post, just wanted to add a little levity. So, Lewis W, tell me your thoughtsÀâ€and any one else for that matter.

 

[CatholicXian]

Not sure if you were asking me or Lewis, Noc, but I figure I'll answer anyway. lol.

I do believe in exorcisms to heal persons who are possessed by demons-- true and authentic ones, not dramatized ones--and I think the world would be a better place if Christians took demons a bit more seriously...

CS Lewis was truly granted some serious insight into the matter when he wrote in The Screwtape Letters:

When the humans disbelieve in our existence... If once we can produce our perfect work--the Materialist Magician, the man, not using, but veritably worshipping, what he vaguely calls 'Forces' while denying the existence of 'spirits'--then the end of the war will be in sight... I do not think you will have much difficulty in keeping the patient in the dark. The fact that 'devils' are predominantly comic figures in the modern imagination will help you. If any faint suspicion of your existence begins to arise in his mind, suggest to him a picture of something in red tights, and persuade him that since he cannot believe in that (it is an old textbook method of confusing them) he therefore cannot believe in you.

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

Oh now you did it, you quoted one of my favorite Christian authors. I love The Screwtape Letters, of course my all time favorite right now has to be Mere Christianity of course after I finally read some of his other works I might change my mind.

Anyway, my question was directed at Lewis W AND anyone else that wanted to answer. Just so you know I take demons very serious I just wonder how they are involved in the lives of humans. I wonder if they actually posse people or merely tempt them. I question their involvement in the lives of people because I have heard “The devil made me do it†before and I seriously question such a statement. I question such things because I believe that people freely chose to do right or wrong (obey God or disobey him). I certainly believe Satan and demons tempt us but I wonder how far that goes, is it merely temptation in our minds or in some cases complete possession.

I also wonder about demon possession because of all the “mental disorders†(such as Schizophrenia and Dissociative Identity Disorder, formerly known as Multipersonality Disorder) I learned about in my psychology classes I had when I got my Bachelors of Science in Psychology. Of course, after one semester of Biblical Counseling I don’t have much faith or belief in Psychology anymore for the most part.

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

personal experience here,

when i went to confession one day and told the priest finally of the things i had been going through for several years, he recommended an exorcism. i went along. was actually very surprised at what happened next. it wasnt flashy, it wasnt dramatic. he prayed over me, i prayed as well. we prayed some more. the most dramatic part was when i was almost thrown to the floor by some seemingly external force. after that, it was over. no yelling, just some simple prayers. and now i dont suffer from those things anymore.

And Lewis, Im Catholic and could in good conscience debunk "The Exorcist." Its a Hollywood movie. Its dramatized. Im sure there are some wicked possessions like the crazy guy who had the legion in him in the bible. And other modern day folks. But Xian makes a good point with the Apostles. They cast demons out in Christs name. So do priests. None would be foolish enough to even try to do it with their own name and power, and if they were, obviously it wouldnt work. So, thank you for the wonderful bit of fiction Lewis, and for the piece of online literature that is ever so credible. You want to attack priests and exorcims? Try debunking "An Exorcist tells his Story".

 

[CatholicXian]

Oh now you did it, you quoted one of my favorite Christian authors. I love The Screwtape Letters, of course my all time favorite right now has to be Mere Christianity of course after I finally read some of his other works I might change my mind.

Yeah, CS Lewis is great. I think my favs of his are The Great Divorce, and possibly The Four Loves. If you really like CS Lewis, you'd probably like GK Chesterton as well. I'd start with The Everlasting Man or Orthodoxy.

Anyway, my question was directed at Lewis W AND anyone else that wanted to answer. Just so you know I take demons very serious I just wonder how they are involved in the lives of humans. I wonder if they actually posse people or merely tempt them. I question their involvement in the lives of people because I have heard “The devil made me do it†before and I seriously question such a statement. I question such things because I believe that people freely chose to do right or wrong (obey God or disobey him). I certainly believe Satan and demons tempt us but I wonder how far that goes, is it merely temptation in our minds or in some cases complete possession.

I also wonder about demon possession because of all the “mental disorders†(such as Schizophrenia and Dissociative Identity Disorder, formerly known as Multipersonality Disorder) I learned about in my psychology classes I had when I got my Bachelors of Science in Psychology. Of course, after one semester of Biblical Counseling I don’t have much faith or belief in Psychology anymore for the most part.

Yeah... but, either way, psychology can call it whatever it wants to-- but some disorders are possibly cases of real possession.

Regarding, "the devil made me do it" statements... those, in my experience tend to come from people who don't want to own up to their own sinfulness. It's a stance of pride.
In many cases of demonic possession, the person is tormented-- they hate it and go through real struggle and don't merely cast off offenses by saying, "the devil made me do it". They are truly contrite and seeking help and prayer, not pity or attention.

There are people they can and do "fake" possessions, but they are pretty easy to spot usually.

 

[ChristineES]

I have to be the first to admit that all I know of the Catholic Church was learned from TV and movies. The media just doesn't do justice of showing all people as they truly are, but exaggerated or even false. I know very little about true exorcisms, and I have never seen one. For that reason, you can't judge by what you see in the media as true.

 

[CatholicXian]

I have to be the first to admit that all I know of the Catholic Church was learned from TV and movies. The media just doesn't do justice of showing all people as they truly are, but exaggerated or even false. I know very little about true exorcisms, and I have never seen one. For that reason, you can't judge by what you see in the media as true.

Well put.

There are many, many misconceptions about the Church that are only furthered an exaggerated by people wanting to make money off of "a good story", not a factual documentary.

The best place to go for information is straight to the source.

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

If you really like CS Lewis, you'd probably like GK Chesterton as well. I'd start with The Everlasting Man or Orthodoxy.

I’ve never actually read any thing of his. I’m familiar with the following quote though, as it use to be in my signature:

"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without conviction."
G.K. Chesterton (1874-1936)
English Writer

Yeah... but, either way, psychology can call it whatever it wants to-- but some disorders are possibly cases of real possession.

So, you think maybe those “diseases†could actually be demon possession?

Regarding, "the devil made me do it" statements... those, in my experience tend to come from people who don't want to own up to their own sinfulness. It's a stance of pride.

I agree and think the same thing.

In many cases of demonic possession, the person is tormented-- they hate it and go through real struggle and don't merely cast off offenses by saying, "the devil made me do it". They are truly contrite and seeking help and prayer, not pity or attention.

Hmmm, interesting.

There are people they can and do "fake" possessions, but they are pretty easy to spot usually.

I would image so.

 

[CatholicXian]

If you really like CS Lewis, you'd probably like GK Chesterton as well. I'd start with The Everlasting Man or Orthodoxy.

I’ve never actually read any thing of his. I’m familiar with the following quote though, as it use to be in my signature:

"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without conviction."
G.K. Chesterton (1874-1936)
English Writer

Yeah... Chesterton's an awesome guy for quotes.

There's actually an online library with many of his works on the internet-- you could browse them before buying.
The Everlasting Man (C.S. Lewis actually listed this as one of the top 10 books that shaped his philosophy.. which was why I actually bought this book in the first place. lol. but it's really good)
Orthodoxy

Yeah... but, either way, psychology can call it whatever it wants to-- but some disorders are possibly cases of real possession.

So, you think maybe those “diseases†could actually be demon possession?

Not always, but potentially. If we put a name it and call it a disorder, we're less likely to suspect anything supernatural. But this is not to say that I think all disorders are really cases of possession, I do not. But sometimes certain disorders that cause people to "hear voices" that make them do bad things... well... it makes me wonder if we shouldn't be calling for prayer and healing before stuffing them full of pills. (I'm not totally against medicine-- I was originally pre-med in college, I just think that docs too readily hand out pills to solve problems these days rather than dealing with the person who might need something else).

 

[thessalonian]

Lewis,

First of all you present a false dichotomy. External does not mean there is a lack of internal. Second of all I don't consider you a very good judge of internal and will put Catholic spirituality against your Protestant Spritiuality any day.

 

[Lewis]

You watched a Catholic exorcism on TV? :-?

I'm doubtful it was authentic. Priests don't publicize exorcisms like that... and your link starts off by referencing a MOVIE... hardly a credible source of authentic information.



So did the Apostles not really cast out demons in the name of Jesus? Do you doubt the words of Sacred Scripture?

I was watching this haunted houses thing on TV, you know just checking it out. And they had to call in a Catholic priest to do a exorcism. So that is how this topic started. And Thess, what are you talking about man ?

 

[CatholicXian]

You watched a Catholic exorcism on TV? :-?

I'm doubtful it was authentic. Priests don't publicize exorcisms like that... and your link starts off by referencing a MOVIE... hardly a credible source of authentic information.



So did the Apostles not really cast out demons in the name of Jesus? Do you doubt the words of Sacred Scripture?

I was watching this haunted houses thing on TV, you know just checking it out. And they had to call in a Catholic priest to do a exorcism. So that is how this topic started. And Thess, what are you talking about man ?

...thought so. TV isn't the best source of information...

 

[Lewis]

We can cast out demons, people still get possesed with demons. It is said that a demon cannot live in a saved body. But they sure can influence. And they are drawn to your desires. But again we were given the power to cast out demons.

 

[CatholicXian]

We can cast out demons, people still get possesed with demons. It is said that a demon cannot live in a saved body. But they sure can influence. And they are drawn to your desires. But again we were given the power to cast out demons.

So then why do you object to the Catholic Church excercising the rightful power of Christians to cast out demons in the name of Jesus Christ?

 

[Lewis]

Ok let me put it this way, and I am not attacking in anyway, but I don't believe in Catholic doctrine. There are some very good people that are Catholics but I will not and cannot get into the Catholic doctrine. I have much more to say but I will not, because we are trying to cut down with the attacks on this board.
And sometimes just telling the truth, or how you really feel, will be taken as an attack.

 

[CatholicXian]

Ok let me put it this way, and I am not attacking in anyway, but I don't believe in Catholic doctrine. There are some very good people that are Catholics but I will not and cannot get into the Catholic doctrine. I have much more to say but I will not, because we are trying to cut down with the attacks on this board.
And sometimes just telling the truth, or how you really feel, will be taken as an attack.

Well, most personal attacks don't usually come from the mods. ;-) You probably would've been okay.

I know you don't believe in Catholic doctrine-- but just because you don't believe we have SOME doctrines right (because, both you and I profess faith in the Trinity-- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as well as many other key doctrines)... but does our disagreement on other doctrines nullify all else? Because I believe that God preserved Mary from sin through an act of His divine grace, does that nullify my belief in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord? (You can answer that question, just as answering the question and I won't take it as a "personal attack", I'm just curious... not angry or particularly vengeful at the moment. lol).

 

[Lewis]

Well see, that is what I am talking about. God did not save Mary from sin. Mary was just like everybody else, but she was a virgin for a while, and her bloodline is from David. But Jesus had brothers and sisters after Him. And all the information on Mary in the Bible will only cover a quarter to a half a page. The 66 books do not tell us to pray to Mary. I could go on with this, but there is no need, as of yet. Plus it will be going off topic.

 

[thessalonian]

God did not save Mary from sin.

What religion teaches this? The difference between us and you is that we give credit to God for saving us from sins we would committ if we did not have the grace to walk on the path of life. What sins would you committ if you were not in Christ Lewis? Did you ever think about that? You can only attribute your not committing those sins to Jesus Christ and his grade in your life. Catholicism teaches Mary did not sin but not on her own but on the grace of Christ in her life. Without grace she would have sinned. This is as much saving her as if one sees a man walking toward a man hole and stops them rather than letting them fall in and then pulling them out.

But Jesus had brothers and sisters after Him.

I agree Jesus had brothers and sisters. Now perhaps you can show me the passage that says "mary's son bob" or "mary's duaghter amy". I don't see such a passage and there is quite good reason in Jewish/Greek language and culture for believing those named in scripture as Jesus brothers are not Mary's children.

And all the information on Mary in the Bible will only cover a quarter to a half a page.

Explicit information yes. Have you ever seen the parrallel between the Ark of the Covenant and Mary? (2 Sam 6, Luke 1) :-D