Faith a practical theory

[Brother Mike]

Can you provide some scirptural support for this? Thanks

So, Let me try to explain, without just throwing scriptures at you.
God is love, and Faith pleases God. Prayer is not some dogmatic exercise that we do in steps to always get the same result we are looking for. It's not the number of times we prayed, or how many times we claimed it, or how many times we thew holy water behind our back.

When we pray, we are asking our Father for something, a person, someone that cares about us, and someone that loves to give.

For God to give, God moves in the Realm of the spirit. Paul saying we look at the things we can't seen as seen things are temporal and change constantly. For God to get anything over to us, it has to come from man, or something already here on earth. We have angels commanded to do this, hearkening unto the voice of God's word (Us speaking the Word) and we have the Word, and the Holy Spirit. All these things work together for our good. All these things are in the realm of the spirit though.

We also have an opposing side we have to deal with. Mr. Devil we are told to resist steadfast in faith. No resisting, no steadfast in faith, then the devil eats us like a lion he pretends to be.

I'll use my son who had terminal cancer as an example. I have learned so much more about faith since then, but the principles are the same.

But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
(Jas 1:6-8)

Someone that ask God for something, but will accept the lesser plan B is taking both sides of the waves. He goes back and forth in his mind that if God does not come though, then at best this will happen.

My son for example, my uncle went to Chicago and talked with the doctors there, I was on parole and could not be in Chicago. When my Uncle came back he sat me down to tell me that the doctors said they can't do anything else for my son, and we should be making burial arrangements. My son did not respond at all to chemo, bloods transfusion, nothing.

So, My uncle said he prayed, and on the drive back (3 hrs) he felt the Lord wanted him to pay for all the funeral expenses, coffin, and take care of everything for me. The doctors told him just a couple more days, and my son would be gone.

My Uncle sits me down and offers to pay for everything. That would be making provisions for plan B, and I told him no thank you, I won't have to bury my Son, God has healed him.

Now in the natural, my son did not look healed. Jesus said though.

Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
(Mar 11:24)

If you believe that you receive something, then your not looking for something else to take it's place. Faith does not look at the situation, does not look how bad things are. Faith only looks at the Word and believes the Word. Faith is not looking at the wind blowing the waves.

(For we walk by faith, not by sight
(2Co 5:7)

I hope this was not to long.

Mike.

 

[electricaluser]

So, Let me try to explain, without just throwing scriptures at you.
God is love, and Faith pleases God. Prayer is not some dogmatic exercise that we do in steps to always get the same result we are looking for. It's not the number of times we prayed, or how many times we claimed it, or how many times we thew holy water behind our back.

When we pray, we are asking our Father for something, a person, someone that cares about us, and someone that loves to give.

For God to give, God moves in the Realm of the spirit. Paul saying we look at the things we can't seen as seen things are temporal and change constantly. For God to get anything over to us, it has to come from man, or something already here on earth. We have angels commanded to do this, hearkening unto the voice of God's word (Us speaking the Word) and we have the Word, and the Holy Spirit. All these things work together for our good. All these things are in the realm of the spirit though.

We also have an opposing side we have to deal with. Mr. Devil we are told to resist steadfast in faith. No resisting, no steadfast in faith, then the devil eats us like a lion he pretends to be.

I'll use my son who had terminal cancer as an example. I have learned so much more about faith since then, but the principles are the same.

But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
(Jas 1:6-8)

Someone that ask God for something, but will accept the lesser plan B is taking both sides of the waves. He goes back and forth in his mind that if God does not come though, then at best this will happen.

My son for example, my uncle went to Chicago and talked with the doctors there, I was on parole and could not be in Chicago. When my Uncle came back he sat me down to tell me that the doctors said they can't do anything else for my son, and we should be making burial arrangements. My son did not respond at all to chemo, bloods transfusion, nothing.

So, My uncle said he prayed, and on the drive back (3 hrs) he felt the Lord wanted him to pay for all the funeral expenses, coffin, and take care of everything for me. The doctors told him just a couple more days, and my son would be gone.

My Uncle sits me down and offers to pay for everything. That would be making provisions for plan B, and I told him no thank you, I won't have to bury my Son, God has healed him.

Now in the natural, my son did not look healed. Jesus said though.

Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
(Mar 11:24)

If you believe that you receive something, then your not looking for something else to take it's place. Faith does not look at the situation, does not look how bad things are. Faith only looks at the Word and believes the Word. Faith is not looking at the wind blowing the waves.

(For we walk by faith, not by sight
(2Co 5:7)

I hope this was not to long.

Mike.

Is it not written that you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free, it doesn't say faith will set you free but knowing.

 

[Brother Mike]

Is it not written that you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free, it doesn't say faith will set you free but knowing.

I never said anything about being free.

However.

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
(1Jn 5:4)

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
(1Pe 5:8-9)

Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
(Mar 9:23)

But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.
(Luk 8:50)

Jesus tell Jairus to just know the truth, and you will be set free of your daughter being dead? Or did Jesus say, to just believe?

It's knowing the truth, that get's one to understand that faith in the Word of God will change any circumstance, heal any disease, and fix any problem.

Mike

 

[electricaluser]

I never said anything about being free.

However.

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
(1Jn 5:4)

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
(1Pe 5:8-9)

Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
(Mar 9:23)

But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.
(Luk 8:50)

Jesus tell Jairus to just know the truth, and you will be set free of your daughter being dead? Or did Jesus say, to just believe?

It's knowing the truth, that get's one to understand that faith in the Word of God will change any circumstance, heal any disease, and fix any problem.

Mike

I'll get to your post soon Mike, some Mormons just turned up at my door and I got go learn about their beliefs.

 

[electricaluser]

I never said anything about being free.

However.

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
(1Jn 5:4)

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
(1Pe 5:8-9)

Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
(Mar 9:23)

But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.
(Luk 8:50)

Jesus tell Jairus to just know the truth, and you will be set free of your daughter being dead? Or did Jesus say, to just believe?

It's knowing the truth, that get's one to understand that faith in the Word of God will change any circumstance, heal any disease, and fix any problem.

Mike

I don't get wrapped up in faith, belief or freedom Mike, there imperfect human concepts trying explain a perfect process. The same applies to me using the word perfect here, it's a flawed human concept. I don't lean on my own understanding I continue to trust my desire to learn, from there I can understand, then I get to know things. (But only as through a glass darkly)

 

[winepress]

I 100% believe in the Hope set before me, which is eternal Life.

I KNOW I have eternal life now in fact and will never die because I've already died in Christ and am raised up in His Resurrection Life and Live that Life every moment. of every day.

I practice "Faith" as a Virtuous woman practices "Fidelity" with her husband whom she "Loves". (The absolute meaning of faith = fidelity)

That is what Faith, Hope and Love is all about!

That's all

 

[john darling]

I continue to trust my desire to learn, from there I can understand, then I get to know things. (But only as through a glass darkly)

I'm curious about what new things you've been learning.

 

[Runner]

Have you ever the term "Make the best of a bad situation." This is faith in a nutshell, faith is a natural ability we all have that helps us cope in a contradictive crisis.

In either a secular or religious context, faith is a decision on a matter for which the truth cannot presently be known. In your example, you cannot know as she walks out the door whether your partner will return. I cannot know whether God exists or whether Christianity is true. You can make a rational decision on the basis of your past experiences with and knowledge of the character of your partner as to whether she will return. If you decide she will return even though all past experience and knowledge tell you she won't, this is not really "faith." It is simply "irrational hope." My faith that God exists and that Christianity is true is based on my best assessment as the result of many years of experience, observation and study as well as my intuition - yet, because I am reasonably sane and rational, I acknowledge that God may not exist and that Christianity may not be true (or may be only 73% true, or whatever). My decisions are not simply "irrational hope" or "making the best of a bad situation." By living as though God does exist and Christianity is true, I am demonstrating the reality of my faith. But again, I am not relying on irrational hope or merely making the best of a "contradictive crisis." I am rationally deciding, on the basis of experience, observation, study and intuition, that I will live my life a certain way in regard to two unknowns (the existence of God and the truth of Christianity). In your example, your partner might well return even though past experience and knowledge of her character would have suggested she wouldn't - in which case your "faith" (irrational hope) would have been rewarded even though it was irrational. The same would be true for a Christian who decides to embrace Christianity blindly, simply as a matter of uniformed hope, which is probably a fair percentage of Christendom. If such a person truly lives a Christian life on this basis, I suppose that this would qualify as "faith" of a sort. But it's not really what I would call faith. In dealing with an unknown, I believe that you must rely on experience, observation and study to get you as close to the answer as you can, then make an intuitive leap of faith in the direction in which they point you - and then live as though the answer toward which you have leaped were true, while acknowledging that it may not be. But alas, 95% of Christendom has absolutely no idea what I'm talking about.

 

[iLOVE]

If it make sense it is not faith. Instead, God chose things the world considers foolish in order to shame those who think they are wise. And he chose things that are powerless to shame those who are powerful.

Example: And Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and wash in the Jordan seven times, and your flesh shall come again to you, and you shall be clean. 2 Kings 5:10 NKJV

Does this make sense? No! Does it make faith? Yes!

 

[Choir Loft]

re: post #1

HBEtech obviously has done a lot of thinking in the matter of inter-personal relationships with special emphasis on abandonment. Such a situation is obviously painful - the exception being when the person who is left behind has arrived at the stage where emotional attachment has eroded to nothing. Emotional pain and mental aggravation is removed by the termination of the relationship in terms of physical separation.

"Frankly my dear I don't give a damn."
- Rhett Bulter to Scarlett O'hara GONE WITH THE WIND

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
- Heb 1:11

Such a situation may or may not be related to faith in God, since God never walks out on a believer.

Assuming that God has delivered a message of hope to the believer, faith is an act of deliberate courage to give God an opportunity to work the situation. Miracles seldom happen in a micro-second. They take time most of the time and faith is a tool that allows the believer to occupy until delivered by divine action. Give God time to work the situation!

What is needed during times of stress are two things; assurance of resolution to the problem, and comfort in the duration. The Holy Spirit gives both. A word of healing or resolution is an announcement of permanent divine help. Comfort is transitory in that the Holy Spirit will bring peace to the believer during the period when He is acting to help with the situation. Faith is the action by the believer to accept the comfort for what it is - temporary respite from mental anguish and physical stress. Faith fills in the blanks until God has acted to resolve the situation. Such an act requires a human act of will - courage in the face of adversity.

The human mind cannot do two things at once. One can either focus on faith and peace in Christ or one can abandon all hope and enter the hellish world of mental anguish.

Faith in God has two real components; acknowledgment that God will do the thing He has promised AND temporary comfort (like manna in the desert).

Comfort should not be confused with a permanent answer. It is an assurance that a permanent change is coming soon. Thank God for the comfort and use it. Praise God for the eventual permanent solution.

It is the DUTY of the believer to accept both from God.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[JLB]

Talk all you want about it but I'm not defending my any of my claims, it's for those who can understand the process and the principle behind faith.

Faith comes by hearing God. Romans 10:17

Living faith that produces a divine result that is pleasing to God, is hearing God and doing what He says.

This is called the obedience of faith.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Romans 16:26 KJV


Faith without this work of obedience is dead.


JLB

 

[john darling]

I think it's intersting that the various examples of faith from Hebrews 11 all involved some kind of difficult choice or radical life-style change. It seems that faith is either always, or usually, based on some kind of change. If we refuse to change, for whatever various reasons we may have, then it shows a lack of faith in a God who's ways are mostly unknown to us.

Perhaps this is why angels almost always start their message with "fear not".

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

I have heard it said that faith without action is dead. And I think that is an important aspect to the conversation. If you believe in something enough to act on it, then it is faith in it. If you don't act on it, it shows you don't trust it enough to act on, or you have some doubt to sway you away from fully accepting something and having faith in it.

However a person gains the trust to have faith, whether it's from trust that continues to grow, or experience lead to trust and faith, or a steady amount of study, or any other way actually; however a person has obtained their faith, if they don't act on it, then it was not really believed to the point that I think of when I hear of faith.

I have faith that when I walk I will not fall. And I walk confidently with that in mind. Why? Because of years of experience being able to walk. However say I get an injury that affects my walking, my faith in walking will also be affected because while healing, walking will be difficult, painful, or just not possible. That might lead to a point of even after the injury is fully healed, there is less confidence with walking, and always looking for a rail to hold onto. Enough doubt to affect the very act of walking.

That's just an example, but it's the same concept with anything else. A person who has faith in God, trusts Him. To what point does that point go though. How much faith does a person have. If they act on that faith they have, then it's the same to answer it. They had faith enough to trust in God to take care of them, and acted confidently through their life. Or they had faith enough that God will hear them and pray on any occasion. Or they have faith that the bible is from God and apply the teachings and lessons in the bible to their lives.

Those actions each show a different part of faith in God, and not always are they all things a person is confidant in and has faith in. But if the test of faith in my opinion is if a person is able to act on it, then they have faith. If not, then they don't

 

[WIP]

I have heard it said that faith without action is dead. And I think that is an important aspect to the conversation. If you believe in something enough to act on it, then it is faith in it. If you don't act on it, it shows you don't trust it enough to act on, or you have some doubt to sway you away from fully accepting something and having faith in it.

However a person gains the trust to have faith, whether it's from trust that continues to grow, or experience lead to trust and faith, or a steady amount of study, or any other way actually; however a person has obtained their faith, if they don't act on it, then it was not really believed to the point that I think of when I hear of faith.

I have faith that when I walk I will not fall. And I walk confidently with that in mind. Why? Because of years of experience being able to walk. However say I get an injury that affects my walking, my faith in walking will also be affected because while healing, walking will be difficult, painful, or just not possible. That might lead to a point of even after the injury is fully healed, there is less confidence with walking, and always looking for a rail to hold onto. Enough doubt to affect the very act of walking.

That's just an example, but it's the same concept with anything else. A person who has faith in God, trusts Him. To what point does that point go though. How much faith does a person have. If they act on that faith they have, then it's the same to answer it. They had faith enough to trust in God to take care of them, and acted confidently through their life. Or they had faith enough that God will hear them and pray on any occasion. Or they have faith that the bible is from God and apply the teachings and lessons in the bible to their lives.

Those actions each show a different part of faith in God, and not always are they all things a person is confidant in and has faith in. But if the test of faith in my opinion is if a person is able to act on it, then they have faith. If not, then they don't

How about a weak faith? Consider your walking example. You said after the injury you walked with "less confidence" but you did not say you walked with no confidence. I don't think faith is either perfect or non-existent. I think our faith in God can be weak as well. As we learn more and more about Him and begin to trust Him more and more, we grow in our faith. When we have less faith we don't act out of our faith with the same confidence we do when our faith is stronger.

Do any of us have super strong faith? This might be a test. Sell everything you own and give the proceeds to the poor and then follow Him.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

How about a weak faith? Consider your walking example. You said after the injury you walked with "less confidence" but you did not say you walked with no confidence. I don't think faith is either perfect or non-existent. I think our faith in God can be weak as well. As we learn more and more about Him and begin to trust Him more and more, we grow in our faith. When we have less faith we don't act out of our faith with the same confidence we do when our faith is stronger.

Do any of us have super strong faith? This might be a test. Sell everything you own and give the proceeds to the poor and then follow Him.

That's true. There are weaker amounts of faith. But if it's something a person is willing to act on, then that shows they have faith in it. I might not be confidant about things if I sell everything and give the proceeds to the poor, but if I do it, weak or not, it is the right amount of faith to be considered faith, because it was acted on. After the fact, our faith can be strengthened or lessened due to the outcomes, and that'll affect our confidence in it. But if a person acts on it, then in my opinion that is faith.

 

[john darling]

Do any of us have super strong faith? This might be a test. Sell everything you own and give the proceeds to the poor and then follow Him.

Hi WIP

By "super strong" do you mean faith which is out of reach for most people with "ordinary" faith? Do you think that's the kind of faith Jesus was advocating? I think, in this case, it's not about having strong or weak faith, but just faith that Jesus knows what's best for us. It's called the good news, but the majority of responses I hear from people indicate fear or attachment. Fear of how we will survive if we don't work for the purpose of getting these things, and attachment in that we feel we cannot live without these things.

I realize it may sound pedantic but God is the only thing we cannot live without. Jesus recognized that our bodies need food, clothing, and water but he was also trying to get us to see that even these most basic necessities should come second to God (Matthew 6:24-33). The only way to genuinely test this principle is by asking people to stop working for the purpose of getting all those things and to only work for God, letting him decide what we need or don't need. It's an issue of motivation. Is our faith in God or mammon? It's easy to think we have the kind of faith God wants, "in our heart" and to some extent that may be genuine but if we never act on what is "in our heart" then can we really call it faith? That is the point of Jesus giving a lot of these teachings as commands.

He knows all the various reasons we'll have for not acting on his teachings, but if we really want to be his followers then surely we'll do what he wants just because he tells us to (Luke 6:46). He is the lord, Saviour master etc... But experience shows that even being the Saviour of the world isn't enough to convince some people to act.

Anyway, I agree with NNS that if we have faith, we will act.

 

[WIP]

Anyway, I agree with NNS that if we have faith, we will act.

I agree with this too for I believe that our actions are the outward expression of our faith. The more faith or trust we have the more Christ-like we become. Maybe I've not understood correctly but what I was hearing in what Not.Now_Soon was saying is that we either have (complete) faith an act or we don't have faith at all. I then began to think about Peter walking on water and then beginning to sink. Did he completely lose faith and that is why he began to sink or did he lose only some of his faith? Jesus' reply to him was not to say that Peter had no faith but that he had "little faith." I just wanted to bring this out.

 

[john darling]

I just wanted to bring this out.

Okay that's cool. It's a good point. Jesus really did say, "little faith" when describing Peter's attitude on the water. However, you also described "weak faith" in the context of "forsaking all" in your earlier post so I think there may be two different contexts here. Peter wasn't acting on any particular teaching of Jesus when he asked to walk on the water. He was experimenting with something miraculous. I'm not suggesting this is an argument which negates the concept of "little faith" but I think it does set a different context to the commands of Jesus. Perhaps the distinction here is faith in the miraculous vs faith in the reasoning behind a teaching.

With a teaching like forsaking all (luke 14:33), selling what we have, helping the poor and then following after Jesus, there is a specific reason behind the teaching. The values of the Kingdom of Heaven are very different to the materialistic values of the world, but because we've grown up indoctrinated by materialism we can only see that difference by practicing the values of Heaven (notice that in the Luke 14:33 verse he's talking to a great multitude of people and starts the command with "whosoever", meaning anyone).. Using our lives to work for material gain is contrary to the values of Heaven. Forcing people to pay us for our love is contrary to the values of Heaven. Treating material possessions as more important than our brothers/sisters is contrary to the values of Heaven.

These are the issues which "forsaking all" attempts to deal with. However, according to the "little" or "weak" faith interpretation, one could forsake a few possessions while still holding on to most, or perhaps even half their possessions and say, "My faith is weak but at least I'm doing something", but would that really be an accurate description of faith in the reason behind the teaching? If you really have faith that Jesus' teachings against materialism are good, then why not be single minded about following those teachings? That kind of "I'll just follow the teaching a little bit" reasoning isn't "weak faith". It's luke-warmness.

Peter wasn't lukewarm about walking on the water. He didn't ask to set one foot on the water while keeping another in the boat. He jumped out of the boat completely. It's true that he became fearful, but at least he was out there on the water. Perhaps this distinction between "little faith" and "faith in general" can only be discerned on a case-by-case basis by listening to the spirit.