Bible Study Faith or Works?

[Georges]

Actually,

The Book of James was written to counter Paul's "Faith alone".

James = Torah observance (faith and works (law observance)).

Paul (of the letters) = Torah abstinence (faith alone).

This falls in line with the disputation James and the Elders of the Church in Jerusalem had with Paul's apparent anti Torah teaching. If Paul was teaching "faith only", then of course they would dispute him.

 

[sehad]

Actually,

The Book of James was written to counter Paul's "Faith alone".

James = Torah observance (faith and works (law observance)).

Paul (of the letters) = Torah abstinence (faith alone).

This falls in line with the disputation James and the Elders of the Church in Jerusalem had with Paul's apparent anti Torah teaching. If Paul was teaching "faith only", then of course they would dispute him.

If all scripture is inspired by GOD, why would these two teach totally opposite? There must be some explanation as to why they SEEM to contradict. Otherwise, the entire bible is void.

 

[Georges]

Actually,

The Book of James was written to counter Paul's "Faith alone".

James = Torah observance (faith and works (law observance)).

Paul (of the letters) = Torah abstinence (faith alone).

This falls in line with the disputation James and the Elders of the Church in Jerusalem had with Paul's apparent anti Torah teaching. If Paul was teaching "faith only", then of course they would dispute him.

If all scripture is inspired by GOD, why would these two teach totally opposite?


2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


Great question and one that makes you go HMMMMM. Got to ask yourself a couple of questions....What is scripture? Certainly at the time Paul (?) wrote this, the only scriptures were the Tanach (OT). If this is what Paul is refering to, I'll agree. If he is referring of his own works, and if they don't agree with what was taught in Jerusalem, are they really inspired by the Spirit of God?

There must be some explanation as to why they SEEM to contradict.

I have an explanation....but it won't be a popular one....

Otherwise, the entire bible is void.

Not so....The OT is legit and very much applicable for today....and I'll say the Book of Revelation is legit. The B of R, is the most Hebraic Book in the NT written in the style of the OT prophets, and is the only book in the NT that gives a warning concerning edits being made.

The other books in the NT have been edited...historically.

and one more thing....The B of R is the only book in the NT where the Author is told to "Write down what he see's"....now that's divine inspiration. The other Books of the NT are Paul's commentary only.

The Gospels in their early form may have been legit, but have been edited over the last 2000 years toward a trinitarian slant.

Luke/Acts of Paul?......He was Paul's back pocket personal biographer....Can he be really trusted to give an unbiased account? I much rather would have had James' biographer pen Acts. I bet that accout would be vastly different than Luke's.

IMHO

 

[R7-12]

What's not understood is the usage of the word "works" and the context wherein it is found.

The Apostle Paul, when speaking of "works" is referring to the works of the law which is a direct reference to the sacrificial ordinances and purification legislation of the first covenant. These works were required for Israelites under the temple system to deal with sin.

When the Apostle Paul speaks of "grace" in this context, he is referring to the perfect sacrifice given once for all to take away sin - something animal blood cannot do (Heb. 10:4).

Remember there were Jews who wanted to influence Gentile converts to accept circumcision (agreement to the first covenant) and then of course they would be required to "keep the whole law" - a reference to the requirement of animal sacrifice.

Paul was merely explaining that the law of Christ (faith in his sacrifice) has fulfilled the righteous requirement of the law (the payment of debt with the life of the sinner), and has therefore replaced the law of animal sacrifice.

Paul was never disputing the requirement to observe God's commandments, which many erroneously conclude due to the misapplication of scripture.

Christ is the righteousness of the law but the Jews wanted to pursue the law through their own righteousness - animal sacrifice, because they rejected the chief cornerstone. Besides, offering animals was something they could personally DO and therefore feel good about their own righteousness and even boast about it. They could also assume to demand payment (life) for their works of the law because a laborer is due his earnings (Rom. 9:30-33). Thu, the Jews boasted in the law (animal sacrifice) while at the same time broke the law (the spiritual intent and goal of the law which leads to Christ) [Rom. 2:17; 10:4].

That is why salvation is spoken of as not something that can be earned - because many tried to do so through the sacrificial system. However, if salvation is pursued by offering animal blood, then it is no longer by promise through faith in Christ which is by the grace of God (Rom. 11:6-10). Again, this has nothing to do with keeping God’s Ten Commandments - it was never a point of discussion.

James, the brother of Jesus Christ, on the other hand, was not speaking of animal sacrifices when he spoke of "works." He was referring to the duty of every servant of God to obey their heavenly Father. This is done by doing what He has commanded, hence the reference to Abraham as being justified by works and faith and being called "a friend of God." Faith is trust in God; trust is demonstrated by what one does according to what one has been given relative to truth.

Paul also speaks of obedience to God as fundamental to the faith in many places in scripture. Thus, James and Paul are in total agreement.

The problem is pre-conceived doctrines and assumptions are attached to numerous scriptures which prevent the reader from examining the Bible with an open mind and clear eyes and clear thinking. But that has been precisely what the Adversary has accomplished by twisting and distorting the truth of God into something that seems to be right, but is never congruent with all of Scripture when carefully and honestly examined.

R7-12

 

[Dave...]

Justification is a one time act (This comes from faith alone).

There are two different kinds of sanctification

1) Sanctification=positional

2) sanctification= progressive

 

[Drew]

Faith is trust in God; trust is demonstrated by what one does according to what one has been given relative to truth.

Greetings R7-12 (and others):

I think some of the issues here are a little tricky. While I find your posts to be articulate and well argued, I request a little further clarification.

It is my understanding that many (if not a significant majority) of North American "evangelical" Christians believe that one enters into an eternal relationship God through a "one-time" act - an act of "acceptance" of the death of Christ as a substitutionary payment for their sin.

While I do want to put words in your mouth, I see you as arguing that such an act is not sufficient to irrevocably establish this relationship. I see you as basically arguing, as per the extract I have taken from your post, faith is basically constituted by (made up of, constructed out of, if you will) one's obedience to the commandments (and I believe I understand your distinction between God's "eternal" commandments and the sacrificial law of the first covenant).

In other words, you are saying that the very concept of "faith" is empty (without actual meaning) without obedience to the commandments. I see you as saying that to claim a "saving" faith does not depend on obeying the commandments is like claiming to be a square without having four equal length sides and four 90 degree angles.

In contrast to the widely held belief, you seem to hold that one cannot look inside a human heart and see an item called faith that somehow "floats free" of works (obedience to the commands of God).

Is this a reasonable characterization of your position?

 

[John the Baptist]

I will take it a bit further. If one has faith, then he will do works, it won't be a concious effort on his part. He will not even think about it, he will just do it.

***
God even takes it further than that :wink:, K.J. Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 & Daniel 7:9-10 & Revelation 20:12-14.
--John

 

[R7-12]

Hi Drew,

You stated,

It is my understanding that many (if not a significant majority) of North American "evangelical" Christians believe that one enters into an eternal relationship God through a "one-time" act - an act of "acceptance" of the death of Christ as a substitutionary payment for their sin.

To me, it appears to be as you say.

One of the most often asked questions since Christ’s sacrifice has mostly likely been, “What must I DO to be saved?†Many groups, organizations, sects, cults, scholars and others have attempted to simplify the answer in order to make it easy to understand and accept. So too with the major Christian organizations of this world. Their purpose, it seems to me, was to reduce attaining salvation to nothing more than verbally expressing an intellectual acceptance of Jesus Christ, an incantation, a magical formula, if you will. All one needs to do is confess Christ and POOF! He is saved. The problem is this part of the text is taken out of context and isolated from the previous verses and second part of verse 9, which they quote, and the verses following it,

For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.†6But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ †(that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ †(that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart†(that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.†12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.†(Rom. 10:5-13, NKJV).

This is quoted from the OT and must be seen in context to be correctly understood,
“if you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this Book of the Law, and if you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 11 “For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. 12 “It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 “Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 “But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it. 15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 “in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the LORD your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess (Deut. 30:10-16).

The Promised Land that we are to possess is the kingdom of God.

To call upon the name of the Lord or to confess Jesus Christ is to agree to live by the word of God.

Salvation does not occur when one repents, but rather at the resurrection when the dead in Christ are raised along with those who remain alive who are true servants, are changed from mortal to immortal. When we are actually born into the kingdom of God as spirit sons and daughters, then we will have victory over death and then we will be saved and not a moment sooner. That is why it is possible for a true servant who is still alive to loose his crown (Rev. 3:11).

To repent is to decide to turn around and walk the other way. Salvation is what God accomplishes in us if we trust Him. Through trust we do what He commands and thereby demonstrate our faithfulness to Him. Consider Abraham and his willingness to sacrifice his only son through whom the promises of God were to come. Abraham was called the friend of God and he will be in the first resurrection. Did he ever call upon the name of Jesus to be saved? Or was he faithful to God no matter what was asked of him?

Thus salvation is a process over time during which we are trained by Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit and learn to fully trust in God our Father.

Consider the disciples, they believed that Jesus Christ was the son of God, the Messiah, yet they did not have faith. After Christ’s death they all went home as if it were all over and hope of the restoration of Israel was lost. Peter even denied Christ three times on the night of his death. Thomas had to touch the risen Christ to believe. The disciples were not converted until they received the Holy Spirit at the Feast of Weeks, or the day of Pentecost.

Paul said,
that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead (Phil. 3:10-11).

God tests our hearts and it is He who determines who is truly converted and earnestly striving to be faithful to Him (1 Thes. 2:4).

Unfortunately, the major Christian organizations of this world have fooled most people into believing that all they must do to be saved is sy a prayer “accepting Jesus into their heart.†If that were the case we could disregard everything else that is written in the Bible and do whatever we want. And perhaps that is precisely what is happening.

R7-12

 

[R7-12]

Drew also wrote,

While I do want to put words in your mouth, I see you as arguing that such an act is not sufficient to irrevocably establish this relationship. I see you as basically arguing, as per the extract I have taken from your post, faith is basically constituted by (made up of, constructed out of, if you will) one's obedience to the commandments (and I believe I understand your distinction between God's "eternal" commandments and the sacrificial law of the first covenant).

In other words, you are saying that the very concept of "faith" is empty (without actual meaning) without obedience to the commandments. I see you as saying that to claim a "saving" faith does not depend on obeying the commandments is like claiming to be a square without having four equal length sides and four 90 degree angles.

In contrast to the widely held belief, you seem to hold that one cannot look inside a human heart and see an item called faith that somehow "floats free" of works (obedience to the commands of God).

Is this a reasonable characterization of your position?

Yes it is.

Doesn't it seem ridiculous to express acceptance of the sacrifice that Almighty God provided to cover our lawbreaking but then turn around and continue breaking the law and not do what He asks?

How could one ever be seen as having faith in God if he doesn’t trust Him enough to do what He asks in the covenant agreement?

You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believeâ€â€and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? (James 2:19-22).

The bottom line is that those who are called of God will have an opportunity to obey Him because God gives them what they have asked for – the truth. Those who are willing to consider the truth God reveals to them (through whatever means) will have their minds and thinking sorted out because God has promised to do that for all who give their works or ways to Him and thereby do what He has written in the word (Prov. 16:3). This is how faith develops - you do what God says first and then you will see His promises manifest in you.

Those who diligently strive to walk as Christ walked, who repent of their daily mistakes - trusting in God’s promises and grace, and endure to the end, shall be saved.

A significant aspect of the law of God is acceptance of the sacrifice given to cover our transgressions of the law, that sacrifice being Christ. Thus to obey the law includes obedience in acceptance of the Passover Lamb of God.

The law of God is a system that includes the rules of conduct, the penalties for breaking the law, and the means for atonement and hence redemption from the penalty – death. The first covenant did not express the means for permanent redemption but rather only the physical purifying of the flesh.

The first covenant was physical in nature with physical promises. It did however include the promise of the perfect sacrifice to come – “the seed through whom all the nations would be blessed†(Gen. 22:18). It should be noted that this promise was given only because Abraham obeyed the voice of God.

The second covenant was inaugurated on the night of Christ’s betrayal when he instituted the Lord’s Supper which symbolizes acceptance of his blood and broken body as the means for atonement. The second covenant was established when Christ died for our lawbreaking. It was realized in power at Pentecost when the means to live by the law was given in the power of the Holy Spirit which is also our guarantee or down-payment of life.

The law of God thus remains and is still a system but now the means for perfect atonement is given in the form of Christ’s blood instead of animal blood – which only provided physical benefit.

Thus, Christ is the central feature of the law of God and the covenant. Faith includes living by this truth also. So it is not just about Ten Commandments or doing something in order to achieve something, it is about KNOWING the one true God and Jesus Christ His son whom He sent (John 17:3).

For it is upon this that everlasting life depends, hence the importance of the first great commandment.

R7-12

 

[John the Baptist]

Matthew 28:20 has Christ telling what He expects of us.

Acts 9:6 seem's very clear that Christ requires more that just a mere profession also.

--John

 

[Sothenes]

Actually,

The Book of James was written to counter Paul's "Faith alone".

That's not true.

 

[Sothenes]

Actually,

The Book of James was written to counter Paul's "Faith alone".

James = Torah observance (faith and works (law observance)).

Paul (of the letters) = Torah abstinence (faith alone).

This falls in line with the disputation James and the Elders of the Church in Jerusalem had with Paul's apparent anti Torah teaching. If Paul was teaching "faith only", then of course they would dispute him.

If all scripture is inspired by GOD, why would these two teach totally opposite? There must be some explanation as to why they SEEM to contradict. Otherwise, the entire bible is void.

What George doesn't understand and why you think there is a contradiction is because James says 'show' me your faith. When James says,'show' me your faith, he is talking about being justified before men about salvation and not about being justified before God. The reason you don't understand the text is because you haven't studied it. You don't know and you are talking to people who do not know. You all tire out all of us who do know.

 

[John the Baptist]

Naw, I don't go along with that 'spiritual' line of why some folks think that James & Pauls 'INSPIRATION' from the Godhead contradicts!

The problem is the person them self! They do not know what has been said. Matthew 4:4 & 2 Timothy 3:16 + Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15. With the Everlasting GOSPEL & Everlasting COVENANT of Revelation 14:6 & Hebrews 13:20 You can have no True Gospel without Covenant CONDITION of works! Acts 5:32

SO: They either are as was Nic of John 3:3-8, (in the flesh & brain dead) or they do not BELIEVE Gods Word, or they are still 'blind' as to why Peter did not understand his 3 time vision from God, in other words, they still teach that it was about 'rat' eating!??? Wow!

What do you suppose that the Holy Spirit was having Paul say in 1 Corinthians 14:32 about James penmanship? And inclusive in ALL SCRIPTURE in fact! Revelation 22:9!!!

Naw, whatever the reason??? The Bible writers are ALL on the right path, but some 'readers' are just shallow! Hebrews 5:12 & Hebrews 6:1. You see 1 John 4:6, huh? :wink:

---John

 

[Georges]

Actually,

The Book of James was written to counter Paul's "Faith alone".

James = Torah observance (faith and works (law observance)).

Paul (of the letters) = Torah abstinence (faith alone).

This falls in line with the disputation James and the Elders of the Church in Jerusalem had with Paul's apparent anti Torah teaching. If Paul was teaching "faith only", then of course they would dispute him.

If all scripture is inspired by GOD, why would these two teach totally opposite? There must be some explanation as to why they SEEM to contradict. Otherwise, the entire bible is void.

What George doesn't understand and why you think there is a contradiction is because James says 'show' me your faith. When James says,'show' me your faith, he is talking about being justified before men about salvation and not about being justified before God.

Are you serious....? I won't even bother with this one...Lets just throw the most important man's "Post Christ" book out as rubbish...

S.....I don't even know what to say to your statement I bolded.


The reason you don't understand the text is because you haven't studied it.

That's laughable....

You don't know and you are talking to people who do not know.

and you do.....know it all....that is also laughable...

You all tire out all of us who do know.

ROTFLMBO.....

Hopefully, you were joking. :silly: ...thanks for the chuckle either way.

 

[Sothenes]

Are you serious....? I won't even bother with this one...Lets just throw the most important man's "Post Christ" book out as rubbish...

S.....I don't even know what to say to your statement I bolded.

That is an Ad Hominen argument. James says "show" me your faith which means that he wants you to justify yourself before him. God already knows everything and we don't have to justify ourselves before Him unless He is trying to rhetorically show us something. You can chuckle all you want but you lost a serious opportunity to reply with knowledge.

 

[Georges]

Are you serious....? I won't even bother with this one...Lets just throw the most important man's "Post Christ" book out as rubbish...

S.....I don't even know what to say to your statement I bolded.

That is an Ad Hominen argument. James says "show" me your faith which means that he wants you to justify yourself before him. God already knows everything and we don't have to justify ourselves before Him unless He is trying to rhetorically show us something. You can chuckle all you want but you lost a serious opportunity to reply with knowledge.

Didn't lose anything my friend....you hung yourself with your own words...as most posters probably will agree...

 

[Sothenes]

Are you serious....? I won't even bother with this one...Lets just throw the most important man's "Post Christ" book out as rubbish...

S.....I don't even know what to say to your statement I bolded.

That is an Ad Hominen argument. James says "show" me your faith which means that he wants you to justify yourself before him. God already knows everything and we don't have to justify ourselves before Him unless He is trying to rhetorically show us something. You can chuckle all you want but you lost a serious opportunity to reply with knowledge.

Didn't lose anything my friend....you hung yourself with your own words...as most posters probably will agree...

I'm still waiting for your argument. I have one waiting for you.

 

[thessalonian]

Actually,

The Book of James was written to counter Paul's "Faith alone".

James = Torah observance (faith and works (law observance)).

Paul (of the letters) = Torah abstinence (faith alone).

This falls in line with the disputation James and the Elders of the Church in Jerusalem had with Paul's apparent anti Torah teaching. If Paul was teaching "faith only", then of course they would dispute him.

If all scripture is inspired by GOD, why would these two teach totally opposite? There must be some explanation as to why they SEEM to contradict. Otherwise, the entire bible is void.

What George doesn't understand and why you think there is a contradiction is because James says 'show' me your faith. When James says,'show' me your faith, he is talking about being justified before men about salvation and not about being justified before God. The reason you don't understand the text is because you haven't studied it. You don't know and you are talking to people who do not know. You all tire out all of us who do know.

James is talking about having an active and living faith. He is saying you can say you have faith all you want "why do you call me Lord, but do not do what I say" "Not everyone who says Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but those who DO the will of the father. " . Now you can dice it to say, well if they never did works they never really had faith or whatever, but at the very least you have to say the works are a show of justification. Your arguement that it is a justification before men simply doesn't fly. It's making an excuse for the rest of James words where he says "faith without works is DEAD!".

 

[Georges]

Are you serious....? I won't even bother with this one...Lets just throw the most important man's "Post Christ" book out as rubbish...

S.....I don't even know what to say to your statement I bolded.

That is an Ad Hominen argument. James says "show" me your faith which means that he wants you to justify yourself before him. God already knows everything and we don't have to justify ourselves before Him unless He is trying to rhetorically show us something. You can chuckle all you want but you lost a serious opportunity to reply with knowledge.

Didn't lose anything my friend....you hung yourself with your own words...as most posters probably will agree...

I'm still waiting for your argument. I have one waiting for you.

You won't get one....I choose to disengage...past experience tells me you won't change your opinion...so I won't bother....you are kind of like Thess (with all due respect). you are both "the sky is green" kind of fellows. No matter how hard one will try to convince you that the "sky is blue", you would never back down.... 8-)

So call it a cop out if you like...I choose not to engage.

 

[thessalonian]

oops