Bible Study Faith

[JM]

What do you have to believe to be saved?

Is it the same in every age? Did the OT saint believe in Christ crucified?

What did the OT saint believe was the basis for his righteousness, did s/he believe in the imputated righteousness of Christ and if they didn't, on what basis were they saved?

If revelation is progressive (as I believe), how could the content of the OT saints faith be the same as the NT 'body of Christ' saint?

 

[Merry Menagerie]

What do you have to believe to be saved?

In the death and resurrection of Christ.

Is it the same in every age? Did the OT saint believe in Christ crucified?

Yes

What did the OT saint believe was the basis for his righteousness, did s/he believe in the imputated righteousness of Christ and if they didn't, on what basis were they saved?

They looked forward to the work of Christ for their salvation by faith. We look back to the work of Christ for out salvation by faith. Salvation is by faith.

Faith being the substance of things HOPED FOR and the evidence of things UNSEEN.

If revelation is progressive (as I believe), how could the content of the OT saints faith be the same as the NT 'body of Christ' saint?

Simple because they had faith in the one that was going to come to set man free from bondage. They looked forward, we look back.

 

[JM]

I don’t want anyone to get the wrong idea; salvation is always by Grace in every age by the blood of Jesus Christ. Keeping in mind that revelation is progressive and our relationship to God is based on the revelation given to us…a good example can be found in the Law, which was powerless in regards to righteousness and securing salvation for sinful man. Galatians 3:21-22 Before the atonement was made man’s salvation was through faith, but only as God anticipated Christ’s death. Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3

So what is the purpose of the OT sacrifices? If all are saved by the exact same faith, speaking of the content of that faith, no purpose can be found. The content of faith changes according to the progressive nature of revelation. We find our answers in Leviticus. Without question Leviticus teaches the efficacy of the OT sacrifices:

Lev 1:4 And he shall lay his hand on the head of the burnt-offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.

Lev 4:26-31 And he shall burn all its fat on the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace-offering; and the priest shall make atonement for him to cleanse him from his sin, and it shall be forgiven him. And if any one of the people of the land sin through inadvertence, that he do somewhat against any of the commandments of Jehovah in things which should not be done, and be guilty; if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge, then he shall bring his offering, a goat, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned. And he shall lay his hand on the head of the sin-offering, and slaughter the sin-offering at the place of the burnt-offering. And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt-offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar: And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace-offering; and the priest shall burn it on the altar, for a sweet odour to Jehovah; and the priest shall make atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

Lev 16:20-22 And when he hath ended making atonement for the sanctuary, and the tent of meeting, and the altar, he shall present the living goat; and Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the living goat, and confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, and he shall put them on the head of the goat, and shall send him away to the wilderness by the hand of a man standing ready; that the goat may bear upon him all their iniquities to a land apart from men ; and he shall send away the goat into the wilderness.

Leviticus does not allow for the OT saint to have faith in Christ as the sacrifice, just for faith in God to remove their sins by faith, Israel had no understanding of the Cross of Christ. Acts 17:30 speaks of this. I’m not saying the “blood of bulls and goats†can take away sin (Hebrews 10:4), that’s impossible, what I am saying is simply this: The nation of Israel related to God via the theocratic state or Kingdom. Hebrews does not say sins were not forgiven by OT sacrifices, but they were insufficient to finally remove the spiritual guilt that comes along with sin. We shouldn’t imply the Israelites understood what the “better sacrifice†was, the fact remains they were conscious of their sins. Hebrews 10:2

I don’t believe the Biblical record supports the idea that national Israel held Jesus Christ as the object of their faith, even though they were saved by Grace according to the revelation given.

Besides, we need to consider Paul’s revelation which no one before Paul knew (1 Corinthians 2:7-8), which was hid in God (Ephesians 3:5, 9; Colossians 1:26), a mystery kept secret (Romans 16:25).

 

[wavy]

I don’t believe the Biblical record supports the idea that national Israel held Jesus Christ as the object of their faith, even though they were saved by Grace according to the revelation given.

Men like David, an Israelite, knew. Abraham knew. These, for example, are positive proof (but we can't say no others had any idea).

But since Yahshua is the same yesterday, today and forever, (Hebrews 13:8) and since he is the I AM, and since he is יהוה, Israel knew him as Savior.

Exodus 15:1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto יהוה, and spake, saying, I will sing unto יהוה, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.
Exodus 15:2 יהוה is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.


1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1 Corinthians 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1 Corinthians 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was ha Moshiach

Besides, we need to consider Paul’s revelation which no one before Paul knew (1 Corinthians 2:7-8),

This scripture does not say "no one before Paul knew".

which was hid in God (Ephesians 3:5, 9; Colossians 1:26), a mystery kept secret (Romans 16:25)

I think you mistakenly tie all references and passages that contain the word "mystery" together...

There is more than one "mystery" in the New Covenant.

 

[JM]

Wavy failed to address Lev., and built a case upon an assumption. There's nothing that would suggest the saints understood what was going to happen at the close of the OT age and the mysteries that were latter revealed.

God is the same in charater and substance, but not in His dealings with man, example the OT law vs. the New Creature found in the NT.

I did post more on this topic and you even posted after it, so I don't know what you mean by your comment, unless you make posts without reading what you're responding to.

What I posted in another thread:

Main presupposition: the Church is a mystery revealed by Pauline and the New Testament is centered upon these Pauline revelations.

Romans 16:25 “Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,â€Â

If we take Paul at his word, we should understand him to be saying that this dispensation of Grace (1 Cor. 9:17; Eph. 3:2) was revealed to him and he was the first person to understand the mystery. Don’t get the word mystery wrong, it’s not a secret in terms of the mystery religions, but a godly secret which everyone now in this age has access to.

Quote:

(1) The “mystery of faith†(1 Tim. 3:9). “The faith†is not only the body of doctrine that sets forth the heavenly truths revealed in Paul’s gospel, but that spiritual apprehension of them that held them fast in the spirit and in a good conscience. It is not opinions, but vital revelations of the Gospel, held as living oracles of God.

(2) The mystery of the union of Christ and the Church as His Body and Bride, is especially revealed in Eph. 5, but appears throughout all the Pauline epistles, even in Romans 12:5, as also in 1 Cor. 12:12, and Eph. 1:22, 23. This union is the basis of all the exhortations to love and obedience.

(3) The “mystery of Christ†(Eph. 3:4), shows that in this mystical Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, all having been chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, having been cut off from their connection by birth with the first Adam, at the Cross, and created anew in Christ. Paul was made minister of this mystery and given the task “to make all men see what is the stewardship of this mystery which for ages has been hid in God Who created all things†(Eph. 3:9). The object was that through this Church might be made known the manifold wisdom of God unto the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. The Church itself was to belong to heaven, though formed by the Spirit on earth, Christ Himself being the Head of it, and every believer a member of Christ and of one another in this Body which will be (has been) given the highest place in glory, though recreated from earth’s sinners, according to “the purpose of the ages,†which the Father purposes in the Son. The highest place given to the lowest creatures, thus reveals the character of the Father  His manifold wisdom forever as nothing else could do. God is Himself love, and the Cross is an exhibition of that love and the commendation of it. The Church, being given the highest position in heaven, will exhibit the activity of that love which is called in Scripture, grace. The world knows nothing of this. It regards the Church as having taken Israel’s place, and being simply an earthly religious organization seeking to obey the general human conscience. The world knows nothing of the fact that the Church is already called, justified, and glorified, being united to Christ Himself, in death, risen and seated with Him in the heavenly places; and that same favor is extended to it, that is extended to the Father’s Beloved, its Head; and its worship is by the Holy Spirit.

(4) The mystery of God  even Christ, “in whom are all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge hidden†(Col. 2:2, 3). This heavenly and glorified Lord Jesus is revealed to the heart of the believer as the Object of his worship, faith, praise and fellowship  by the Holy Spirit. This heavenly One is altogether unknown by the unsaved man.

(5) The mystery of Christ indwelling the believer (Col. 1:26, 27). He is called “Christ in you, the hope of glory.†“Abide in me, and I in you†(Col. 1:27; John 15:4). This is the great two-fold mystery, which in these Colossians verses is said to “fill up†the Word of God, being the highest revelation therein, and being the mystery which hath been hid from the ages and generations, but now being manifested. The “riches of the glory of this mystery†is made known to saints.

(6) The mystery of the Rapture of the Church at the Lord’s coming into the air, involving both the raising of those who have fallen asleep in the Lord Jesus, and also those alive at the moment (1 Thess. 4; 1 Cor. 15).

(7) The mystery of the fellow-heirship in Christ of Jew and Gentile (Eph. 3:3, 4, 9). This mystery does not seem great to us now who live on this earth, where we are accustomed to Jew and Gentile distinction as well as national differences generally, but when we remember that the Church was chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world (when there was no such distinction, or, indeed, any human being whatsoever), we see how great a secret this is: especially in view of the peculiar promises to national Israel in the Old Testament.

(8) The mystery of the wisdom of God, in secret in Christ: so that Paul and true preachers speak the wisdom of God that hath been hidden before the ages for our glory (1 Cor. 2:7). These things are revealed to us by the Spirit Who not only refuses to use man’s wisdom but also man’s words: “in words which the Spirit teacheth combining (or expressing) spiritual things with spiritual words.â€Â

(9) The mystery of the Kingdom of God, in righteousness, peace, and joy in the Spirit (Rom. 14:17). Only new-born or new-created men in Christ know this mystery ( 2 Cor. 5:17; John 3:3).

(10) The mystery of iniquity (2 Thess. 2:7). Satan is not permitted as yet to bring forth fully the “apostasy,†which will come when the world worships Satan intelligently (Rev. 13), the Church having been previously taken away according to 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18, and Revelation 3:10). Babylon or “confusion†is another name for this mystery in this age  see harlot church (Rev. 17), centered in seven-hilled Rome.

(11) The mystery of the hardening in part of Israel (Rom. 11:25). Though there is at present a remnant according to the election of grace, yet national Israel’s eyes are peculiarly blinded to their own Scriptures, to Christ as their Messiah, and to grace as God’s only method of salvation.

(12) The mystery of God’s will purposed in Christ, looking unto “a dispensation of the fullness of times, to sum up (Eph. 1:10) all things in Christ (that is). the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth†(not the lower or lost world, as in Phil. 2:10; Rev. 5:13). The foundation of this in Eph. 2:10, will be the “Blood of His Cross†(Col. 1:19, 20). The saints alone have this mighty future purpose of God revealed to them; all others count upon man and the earth, which is cursed.  Wm. R. Newell

It is because of these reasons the Church is not the subject of Old Testament prophecy concerning the end times, Jacob's trouble and it is because of this fellowship (Eph. 3:5) that was hid in God, we the Church could not have been spoken of. As Paul wrote: "hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to the saints" (Col. 1:26).
As members of the Body we wait to be rapture "received up in glory" (1 Tim. 3:16) and wait for our "calling on high" (Phil. 3:14). Quoting: They are looking for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall change their vile bodies that they may be fashioned like unto His own glorious body (Phil. 3:20, 21).

I quoted this before: 1 Thessalonians 5:1-5

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye (ye=you) have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them (them meaning someone else) , as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

End quote.

Since you've found out that I'm a dispey, your posts have been off handed, classic anti dispensational reponse.

Men like David, an Israelite, knew. Abraham knew. These, for example, are positive proof (but we can't say no others had any idea).

Please, provide me with a few verses to review.

Thank you.

[edit made by JM]

 

[wavy]

Wavy failed to address Lev., and built a case upon an assumption.

I actually agreed with you on Leviticus (besides this, now that I think about it):

So what is the purpose of the OT sacrifices? If all are saved by the exact same faith, speaking of the content of that faith, no purpose can be found. The content of faith changes according to the progressive nature of revelation.

The purpose was to atone for sin and to make a reminder of sins (and also as a foreshadow of Messiah and the heavenly tabernacle).

The "content of faith" is irrelevant. The one and only principle of true faith is just to do what יהוה says and just believe what יהוה says. If that means believing something that is the basis of a greater/higher/weightier revelation that is to be revealed later, whether or not you know about it, so be it.

It's not "this content vs. that content". It's all "believe יהוה". So this is irrelevant to the scripture. You are superimposing concepts that are not in scripture.

Other than this, Leviticus has nothing to do with my point, however, and does not refute my point. If Leviticus somehow hinders what I said, please show me.

And let's not talk about getting into making assumptions. Every time we get into one of your dispensational arguments, you always start with the distinction between the "church" and "Israel". You have not once acknowledged this fact.

There's nothing that would suggest the saints understood what was going to happen at the close of the OT age and the mysteries that were latter revealed.

That is not the point. And again, here you are with that dispensationalist thought again. "Old Testament age?"

What? Where is this? There are only two ages from a proper Hebraic viewpoint: this age and the age to come (Isaiah 66:22; Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Ephesians 1:21; Hebrews 2:5).

Isaiah 43:27 also tells us that יהוה considers Adam the first father of Israel that sinned (either him or Abraham is mentioned in this passage). This disproves any dispensational period from the time of Adam.

God is the same in charater and substance, but not in His dealings with man, example the OT law vs. the New Creature found in the NT.

Talk about assumptions. Yet another dispensationalist distinction before you've proven it. This has some weight to it, but in a proper context: something I believe you do not present.

Main presupposition: the Church is a mystery revealed by Pauline and the New Testament is centered upon these Pauline revelations.

Exactly. A pressuposition.

If we take Paul at his word, we should understand him to be saying that this dispensation of Grace (1 Cor. 9:17; Eph. 3:2) was revealed to him and he was the first person to understand the mystery. Don’t get the word mystery wrong, it’s not a secret in terms of the mystery religions, but a godly secret which everyone now in this age has access to.

First falsehood: "dispensation" is not the correct term for those passages. It just shows the biases of the translators who have PRESUPPOSED dispensationalism into the bible. The correct word is "administration" and nothing indicates in those contexts of a change of "age" from "law vs grace" or "old testament vs. new testament" or "Israel vs. the 'Church'" or any other dispensationalist falsehood. Second falsehood: Paul never stated he was the first person to understand whatever this "mystery" is (which you have not proven to be the building of a separate entity "church"; you've have just, admittingly, pressuposed it).

I don't have the time (which would be ultimately wasted) on saying anything about the rest. I do not want to frustrate myself reading and refuting nonsense.

Since you've found out that I'm a dispey, your posts have been off handed, classic anti dispensational reponse.

And yet, you always refer me to some link or ingore me or do a copy and paste job. You never address the points.

The main point, not once did the O.T. prophets ever foresee that uncircumcised gentiles would some day be saved through Israel's fall, they didn’t foretell Christ dying for the sins of world (hyperbole and used to include gentiles), as Paul explains in Romans 11:11-13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

In order to argue this, we'd have to explain the meaning of the scriptures from Genesis forward. Something we don't have time to do. We are looking at it from two completely different mindsets. You've made pressuppositions that must be addressed before I can buy into arguing from the basis of the points you've made here. Example, I probably don't (I know I don't) have the same understanding of Romans 11:11-13 or 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 as you do. Anyway, Paul exposes what you said as a falsehood:

Galatians 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

You apply a different way of looking at the scriptures than I do...That is why this is ultimately fruitless. However, I only replied because you said I did not address Leviticus.

Also, if I remember correctly (I think I deleted it along with all that other nonsense I saw), I believe you mentioned Romans 16:25. This scripture also refutes your point. I pointed this out before. Of course, you ignored me:

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of ha Moshiach יהושׁע , according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Romans 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting Elohim, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

I think you do not know what the prophets foresaw or what the scriptures foresaw. I don't have the best grasp of it either, but I know it isn't what you are trying to present. You just hope what you said is true because it has to be in order for you to be right. And you already have to pressupose a dispensation or a mystery being the "church" before it is seen (supposedly) from scripture.

You can search the scriptures all you want from Genesis – Gospel of John, and won’t find any of these doctrines, because they are identified with the "mystery" that was revealed to Paul and Paul alone.

Not true. And absolutely no scripture says it was revealed to "Paul and Paul alone".

[quote:9df0a]Men like David, an Israelite, knew. Abraham knew. These, for example, are positive proof (but we can't say no others had any idea).

Please, provide me with a few verses to review. [/quote:9df0a]

From the LXX, and quoted in Hebrews (the Psalm link will take you to an LXX translation of the Tanach online):

Psalms 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not; but a body hast thou prepared me: whole-burnt-offering and sacrifice for sin thou didst not require.

Genesis 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, Elohim will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

Messiah, referring back to this incident said:

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

 

[JM]

Exactly. A pressuposition.

Everyone has prespositions Wavy, even you...you're just not being honest about them.

First falsehood: "dispensation" is not the correct term for those passages. It just shows the biases of the translators who have PRESUPPOSED dispensationalism into the bible. The correct word is "administration" and nothing indicates in those contexts of a change of "age" from "law vs grace" or "old testament vs. new testament" or "Israel vs. the 'Church'" or any other dispensationalist falsehood. Second falsehood: Paul never stated he was the first person to understand whatever this "mystery" is (which you have not proven to be the building of a separate entity "church"; you've have just, admittingly, pressuposed it).

Quote: The Greek word oikonom’a is a compound of o’kos meaning " house" and nâ€â€mos meaning " law." Taken together " the central idea in the word dispensation is that of managing or administering the affairs of a household." The various forms of the word dispensation are used in the New Testament twenty times. The verb oikonomŽ™ is used once in Luke 16:2 where it is translated " to be a steward." The noun oikonâ€â€mos is used ten times (Luke 12:42; 16:1, 3, 8; Rom. 16:23; I Cor. 4:1, 2; Gal. 4:2; Titus 1:7; I Pet. 4:10), and in all instances it is translated " steward" except " chamberlain" in Romans 16:23. The noun oikonom’a is used nine times (Luke 16:2, 3, 4; I Cor. 9L17; Eph. 1:10; 3:2, 9; Col. 1:25; I Tim. 1:4). In these instances it is translated variously (" stewardship," " dispensation," " edifying" ). The Authorized Version of Ephesians 3:9 has " fellowship" (koinâ„¢n’a), whereas the American Standard Version has " dispensation."

If, as you claim, dispensationalism is 'new' then how could the translators of the KJV have presupposition to impose upon the Scriptures? The translators were Anglicans with calvinistic views, not dispensationalists. lol

I don't have the time (which would be ultimately wasted) on saying anything about the rest. I do not want to frustrate myself reading and refuting nonsense.

False logic will get you no where. Simply claiming something to be false doesn't make it so and claim to refute doesn't refute. ;-)

And yet, you always refer me to some link or ingore me or do a copy and paste job. You never address the points.

This is where your presuppositions come in, I address your points and you don't or can't, according to your presuppositions understand them. Examine your presuppositions Wavy, and then re-read what I've posted only when you know what you presume.

I don't have time to get into the rest.

Peace,

JM

 

[JM]

I won't post for a while. I don't have a computer at home so I'm forced to post on a dime, it's caused problems with the content of my posts.

 

[wavy]

Everyone has prespositions Wavy, even you...you're just not being honest about them.

You did not even indicate what my supposed presupposition was, much less tell me how I was not being honest about it.

Quote: The Greek word oikonom’a is a compound of o’kos meaning " house" and nâ€â€mos meaning " law." Taken together " the central idea in the word dispensation is that of managing or administering the affairs of a household." The various forms of the word dispensation are used in the New Testament twenty times. The verb oikonomŽ™ is used once in Luke 16:2 where it is translated " to be a steward." The noun oikonâ€â€mos is used ten times (Luke 12:42; 16:1, 3, 8; Rom. 16:23; I Cor. 4:1, 2; Gal. 4:2; Titus 1:7; I Pet. 4:10), and in all instances it is translated " steward" except " chamberlain" in Romans 16:23. The noun oikonom’a is used nine times (Luke 16:2, 3, 4; I Cor. 9L17; Eph. 1:10; 3:2, 9; Col. 1:25; I Tim. 1:4). In these instances it is translated variously (" stewardship," " dispensation," " edifying" ). The Authorized Version of Ephesians 3:9 has " fellowship" (koinâ„¢n’a), whereas the American Standard Version has " dispensation."

I actually agree with this (unless there is something I am missing).

If, as you claim, dispensationalism is 'new' then how could the translators of the KJV have presupposition to impose upon the Scriptures?

What? And at what point did I say it was "new"? I think you are confusing me with some one else...

The translators were Anglicans with calvinistic views, not dispensationalists. lol

That's fine. I stand corrected about "biases". Still does not deny the meaning of the Greek word, or separate this from that in different time periods of law/grace, old/new testament, israel/"church", etc.

False logic will get you no where. Simply claiming something to be false doesn't make it so and claim to refute doesn't refute. ;-)

This would only make sense if I was using it as an argument. This was a personal choice I made because I did not want to frustrate myself. One, because I wouldn't be able to bear what I was reading and two, because you'd probably ignore it, just as you have ignored everything else and it would be ultimately fruitless.

This is where your presuppositions come in, I address your points and you don't or can't, according to your presuppositions understand them.

What I said wasn't a presupposition. It was the truth. Would you like me to do some homework and indicate all the instances where you have done just that (including this post)????????

Examine your presuppositions Wavy, and then re-read what I've posted only when you know what you presume.

I read what you said. If I missed something, you will have to indicate that for me because I don't see it. That is your choice, however (of course).

I don't have time to get into the rest.

Which is exactly what I meant when I said:

]

I don't have the time (which would be ultimately wasted) on saying anything about the rest. I do not want to frustrate myself reading and refuting nonsense.

But anyway, I know I can sound sharp sometimes (like at the beginning post). Please forgive me. I don't mean anything by it and I am trying to change that.

Peace/love

(i had stopped adding this to my posts)

 

[JM]

Wavy, we are both entrenched when it comes to reading each others posts. Lets step back a sec to breath.

What did the OT saints believe (from the OT Scriptures) that was saving, what was a saving faith in the days of the OT?

 

[wavy]

Believing and trusting in Yahweh and living it. Same with today.

 

[JM]

Believing and trusting in Yahweh and living it. Same with today.

And with that, we both agree. Amen.

Peace

 

[Terral]

We Are Saved By God's Grace Through Faith Apart From Works

Hi JM:

JM >> What do you have to believe to be saved?

We are to believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and God raised Him from the dead (Romans 10:9) on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:3-4); that our redemption is “IN†Christ (Romans 3:24) and our forgiveness is through His precious blood (Ephesians 1:7). In other words, we are saved by God’s grace through faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9) by obeying Paul’s “word of the cross†(1 Corinthians 1:18) gospel message.

JM >> Is it the same in every age?

Every age? We have been living through the same “evil age†(Galatians 1:4) since Genesis 1:2, which does not end until the Judgment of Revelation 20:11-15. Therefore, your “age†(aion #165) should be replaced by the term “dispensation†(oikonomia #3622). Israel of the flesh live under the “Dispensation of the Law†given to Israel (Romans 9:4) through Moses. Gentiles have never been under the Law (without the Law = Romans 2:14-15) and are part of their own dispensation apart from Israel. Those saved by our gospel are part of the ‘dispensation of God’s grace’ (Ephesians 3:2), which makes us a ‘son’ of God (Romans 8:14, 19, Galatians 3:27), which means God deals with you through His Grace and Mercy for the ‘ages to come’ (Ephesians 2:7). Our mystery church shall judge the world and the angels (1 Corinthians 6:2-3), but even the angels are part of another ‘dispensation’ that God deals with differently than men. Consider that the cherubim the Lord God positioned to guard the way to life (Genesis 3:24) are part of a different dispensation still . . . Therefore, we cannot place all of God’s hosts under one dispensational umbrella and pretend God deals with everyone in the same way.

JM >> Did the OT saint believe in Christ crucified?

No sir. If the OT saints had that understanding, the Satan would have known also and not crucified the Lord of Glory. 1 Corinthians 2:6-8. Christ came preaching the ‘gospel of God’ (Mark 1:14-15), but that good news was that the “kingdom of heaven is at hand.†Matthew 3:2, Matthew 4:17, Matthew 10:5-7. Do you find Peter and the Twelve standing with open arms ready to receive Christ from the tomb on the third day? No. Why not? Christ had to send the woman, but what does Scripture say?

“She went and reported to those who had been with Him, while they were mourning and weeping. When they heard that He was alive and had been seen by her, they refused to believe it.†Mark 16:10-11.

If even those who walked with Christ for the three years leading up to His crucifixion and resurrection did not believe, then how can you expect those who never saw Him to believe? Even the women at the tomb came bearing “spices and perfumes†(Luke 23:56), which symbolize their “lack of faith.†Why the need for any of those things if God is truly raising His Son from the dead? The truth is that those nearest to Christ failed to believe even the most basic of His teachings, because they were men and women of so little faith (Matthew 8:26, Matthew 14:31, Matthew 16:8, etc.). Never forget that those shouting “Crucify Him†(Matthew 27:22) and “Crucify Him†(Matthew 27:23) were the descendants of those you are calling OT Saints. What makes you believe their fathers (Acts 7:51-52) would have done anything differently?

JM >> What did the OT saint believe was the basis for his righteousness, did s/he believe in the imputated righteousness of Christ and if they didn't, on what basis were they saved?

Your question has far too many components for anyone to give an accurate Biblical reply. Even if an OT saint is a holy one of Israel from places like Psalm 16:3, Psalm 34:9 and Daniel 7:18), then where are you deriving this “imputed righteousness of Christ†lingo? The “Righteousness of God†(Romans 1:17) is revealed from ‘faith to faith,’ so that ‘The righteous shall live by faith.†Scripture says,

“Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.†Romans 10:1-4.

God imputes His Own Righteousness (Romans 3:25) upon those who believe the gospel that Christ died for our sins and God raised Him from the dead (Romans 10:9). You are going to find references to the “righteousness of God†in places like Romans 3:21-22, Romans 10:3 above, 2 Corinthians 5:21 through ‘faith in Jesus,’ like we see here:

“and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith . . .†Philippians 3:9.

I cannot find an instance of Scripture addressing the “imputed righteousness of Christ†anywhere. The key is that all believers have become the ‘righteousness of God’ IN Christ Himself (2 Corinthians 5:21), as the members of “Christ’s body†(1 Corinthians 12:27). We have been crucified with Christ (Galatians 2:20), and God raises us from the dead with Christ (Colossians 3:1), which placed God in the driver seat in imputing His Righteousness upon all believers “IN†Christ Jesus (Ephesians 2:6-7).

JM >> If revelation is progressive (as I believe), how could the content of the OT saints faith be the same as the NT 'body of Christ' saint?

We must agree that the concept of placing their ‘faith’ in the blood sacrifice of Christ BEFORE Christ even appeared was far beyond them all. You and I can look through God’s Word into the past and see these things more clearly, than anyone in the OT could look forward into the great unknown. The fact that Israel crucified the Lord is evidence of what they did not understand. The second missing component of your premise is that the ‘faith of Jesus’ (Romans 3:26) only became available to us AFTER God actually raised Christ from the dead AND sent the Gospel into the world. After all, we receive the faith by ‘hearing’ (Romans 10:17) the word of Christ itself, when the ‘preacher’ (Romans 10:14) presents the gospel. That is why Paul says,

“But before faith came (before Calvary), we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come (after Gospel sent into the world), we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.†Galatians 3:23-27.

Note that we are baptized directly into Christ Himself, through the ‘one baptism€™ (Ephesians 4:5) of 1 Corinthians 12:13. This allows us to become the members of His body (Colossians 1:24) and become active participants in His death, burial and resurrection so that God could then seat us “IN†the heavenly places “IN†Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2:6-7. Nobody in the OT had that opportunity, because the saving ‘faith of Jesus’ received by 'hearing' was still “IN†God’s Son and God had yet to send Him into the world.

Thank you for asking these questions,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral