Faith2?

[Cedric]

Hey everyone,
This is a continuation of my other faith topic because it has kind of gone in 2 different directions. I apoligise about clogging up the boards. In this I would just like some info from you all you christians. My question is, are you sure God exists? If yes how do you know? If no then how can you follow God when you aren't sure?

 

[cly]

Cedric,

I skimmed your other thread, and I feel I should be desparately praying for you. This is no offense to the Quath person, but please do not just accept what he says because you understand it. The Bible says that there are many things within the Bible a non-Christian cannot understand. I know that probably did not help much, but it's true. However, God will reveal His word to you if pray and ask Him to. If you truly seek to know Him, He will definitely make known to you His words and Himself.

As far as your questions on this thread. I do know that God exists. No, I have not seen his face or anything like that, but I do feel His presence. I know He exists because He answers my prayers. He works in my life for the good of His will, which is always better than my own. He speaks to me through the Bible, through other people, through the thoughts He puts in my head, even through the music that I listen to. I have felt it as He has comforted me in my times of trials and sufferings. I have seen great miracles come about because of answers to prayers. (My neighbor had cancer one month, and the next month, there was none - and she hadn't had a single treatment yet.)

I know God exists because of the things He has done for me and my family. I had a lot of confusion in my life a few years ago, and it was threatening to destroy me. I prayed and asked God for help, and soon after, I was a much happier person. I had worked things out, and solved many problems.

I promise that if you pray and truly seek to know God, He will reveal Himself to you through scripture and others ways. Faith really isn't as difficult of thing as you may think it is. I'm not saying that it is always easy, because it certainly isn't, but faith that there God is real and that He loves you - now that's not hard once He makes Himself manifest to you.

I'll be praying for you, my friend. I'm not the most theologically astute person around, but if you need someone to listen to you or to talk with you, you can PM me or go to my profile and there is my e-mail address, which you are welcome to use.

Praying for you,

CLY

 

[ThinkerMan]

Greetings Cedric:

I also am an atheist.

The question I have, is why do you feel it is necessary (or optimal) for there to be god? I saw you have discussed Pascal's wager in the other thread, but what pushes you to discern the answer in the first place? Is it the Christian God you are trying to prove, or just "god"?

I agree it is appealing for there to be a god (I believed in one for much of my life). The idea of living forever is certainly seductive, and I can see why people desire it to be true. But such immortality really does have a lot of drawbacks people often don't ponder (and I don't just mean like the knight in Indian Jones and last Crusade).

I hope your search goes well, and you find your truth.

 

[antitox]

As far as your questions on this thread. I do know that God exists. No, I have not seen his face or anything like that, but I do feel His presence. I know He exists because He answers my prayers. He works in my life for the good of His will, which is always better than my own. He speaks to me through the Bible, through other people, through the thoughts He puts in my head, even through the music that I listen to. I have felt it as He has comforted me in my times of trials and sufferings. I have seen great miracles come about because of answers to prayers. (My neighbor had cancer one month, and the next month, there was none - and she hadn't had a single treatment yet.)

The above comment is a good answer. That's what it's about.
I find that Christians tend to get tired and don't want to push ahead with the task of living out this life and want everthing to be easier for them. Well, it isn't wasy. It's harder for a Christian because they have to withstand the challenges of this life in the covenant of faith. If you read the sayings of Jesus, it's not easy.

 

[aiki]

Cedric:

Hey!

You have already noted that God has not given conclusive proof of His existence. That is, He has not, for the last 2000 years, seen fit to stand before us and say, "Here I am!" Instead, He has been content simply to leave us evidence of His being. Some folk consider this evidence and reject it while others find the evidence for God's existence compelling. The atheists on this board would have you believe that those who are positively affected by this evidence are ignorant, afraid, deluded, and stupid. But they are not. They are generally as thoughtful, and informed, and sincere in their quest for the truth as any atheist may claim to be. So, what makes people who are equal in most respects, and who are exposed to the same evidence for God's existence, react so differently? Why, God Himself!

The Bible states that God draws us to Him. Were He not to take this initiative, we would never come to a saving faith in Him. And He not only draws us to Him, He keeps us in relationship with Him. So, to answer your question: I am sure God exists because He has given me an inward certainty of His being, that, while supported by convincing, objective evidence, transcends it by touching my heart and not just my mind. God has given me an "inner witness" of His existence that I cannot shake, that comforts me, that informs, secures, and stabilizes my faith in Him. This witness goes deeper than mere words and arguments; it places me in a relationship with God that is personal and powerful and undeniable. I am not left with just words and arguments to bolster my faith in God; I have a daily, personal experience of Him. This is, more than anything else, why I am sure God exists.

This isn't what atheists like to hear, however. They can't argue the minutiae of my personal experience. So, they just dismiss it as delusion or an intellectual cop-out. But, this is to be expected from those who don't know God.

In Christ, Aiki.

 

[Quath]

This isn't what atheists like to hear, however. They can't argue the minutiae of my personal experience. So, they just dismiss it as delusion or an intellectual cop-out. But, this is to be expected from those who don't know God.

I would have to disagree. This was a very good post. This is the personal evidence that it usually comes down to. I have not experienced it, so it does not apply to me, yet Aiki has experienced it (or from my perspective, Aiki feels something that may have nothing to do with God.)

So this is the ultimate place of disagreement, but it is also one that I can understand. Aiki believes because of evidence (which I think is required), but Aiki can't share that evidence because it is a personal feeling.

Aiki is right that atheists dismiss this, but mostly from the idea that it is objective proof of God. This is subjective proof and pretty much all religions are ultimately supported by this subjective proof. But I think atheists also understand this type of argument as the ultimate difference in thinking between atheist and theist (which does not mean it is wrong).

Quath

 

[aiki]

Quath:

Hey, there!

I just wanted to clarify: there is evidence, good, objective evidence, I think, for holding to the notion of God's existence. But it is not, in the end, solely this evidence that convinces me. You yourself, Quath, are aware of at least some of the evidence of which I speak, yet you remain staunchly unpersuaded. Why is that? YOu aren't more intelligent, or better-versed in the facts of the matter, or more capable of objectivity than I, yet we have come to completely opposite conclusions about whether or not God exists.
I believe the difference in our reponses has to do mainly with God Himself. He persuades people, ultimately, of His existence. He is not, after all, just an idea to be debated, but a Being who seeks a relationship with His creatures. So, He is not content to simply have us discuss, ad infinitum, the possibility of His existence. At times, He reaches down and, on a level totally beyond the intellectual, He personally relates Himself to some of us. This is fundamentally why I believe and you do not, Quath (at least as far as I'm concerned).

Who knows, perhaps God will draw you, too! :wink: :-D I hope so!

God bless. :D

In Christ, Aiki.

 

[antitox]

This is the personal evidence that it usually comes down to. I have not experienced it, so it does not apply to me, yet Aiki has experienced it (or from my perspective, Aiki feels something that may have nothing to do with God.)

If one has not experienced it, then one misses part of the picture; part of the puzzle, don't you think?
Therefore without considering the experiential and revelational portion, one cannot honestly assert that it doesn't apply to him. That would be denial of the unexplored territory.

Any true seeker of answers to life's mystery would give God an open door in hopes to find those answers rather than try to shoot holes in the faith of believers simply because he cannot assimilate something spiritual in nature with his mere mind.

The only chance of one discovering God is to come to a point where that person is ready to lay down his own stubbornness and self-rule - thereby allowing God a moment to reveal Himself. For God will not force His way in; it must involve man's submission. Can an atheist do that? I believe that is the real question here.

 

[Quath]

If one has not experienced it, then one misses part of the picture; part of the puzzle, don't you think?
Therefore without considering the experiential and revelational portion, one cannot honestly assert that it doesn't apply to him. That would be denial of the unexplored territory.

Is it also unexplored territory if you have not given yourself to Allah, Zeus and Viushnu as well?

Any true seeker of answers to life's mystery would give God an open door in hopes to find those answers rather than try to shoot holes in the faith of believers simply because he cannot assimilate something spiritual in nature with his mere mind.

I know I gave it an honest effort. There is still an open door, but I just need some real proof.

The only chance of one discovering God is to come to a point where that person is ready to lay down his own stubbornness and self-rule - thereby allowing God a moment to reveal Himself. For God will not force His way in; it must involve man's submission. Can an atheist do that? I believe that is the real question here.

I know may atheists that were once Christian. They believed whole heartedly while they were in it. Yet when they backslid, they realized that what they felt was desire for it to be true, not truth itself.

Quath

 

[Gary]

The only chance of one discovering God is to come to a point where that person is ready to lay down his own stubbornness and self-rule - thereby allowing God a moment to reveal Himself. For God will not force His way in; it must involve man's submission. Can an atheist do that? I believe that is the real question here.

I know many atheists that were once Christian. They believed whole heartedly while they were in it. Yet when they backslid, they realized that what they felt was desire for it to be true, not truth itself.

I know several ex-atheists (myself included) who have have been totally transformed by coming to know the truth of our Lord Jesus Christ. True born-again believers do not lose their salvation.

Your time may come Quath. But antitox makes several very valid points. You have to "lay down your stubbornness and self-rule - thereby allowing God a moment to reveal Himself. For God will not force His way in; it must involve man's submission. Can an atheist do that? I believe that is the real question here." I know what he is saying is true. I have been through that process.

"Does God believe in atheists?" (*) is the ultimate question for those who have not yet experienced Him. I know that He does!

(*) The title of a great book by John Blanchard which will challenge even the most stubborn skeptic.

.

 

[Gary]

Hey everyone,
This is a continuation of my other faith topic because it has kind of gone in 2 different directions. I apoligise about clogging up the boards. In this I would just like some info from you all you christians. My question is, are sure God exists? If yes how do you know? If no then how can you follow God when you aren't sure?

Cedric, there are some excellent responses from believing Christians like antitox, aiki and CLY in the posts above.

I also know that God exists by experience. I was an atheist for 30+ years. I could argue like the atheists ThinkerMan and Quath above. But once you honestly seek the Lord, He will reveal Himself to you. It is His work and His grace.... but we must be willing to accept that gift.

There are many ways to try and "prove" God.... none is individually definitive. But the weight of evidence points towards God. In your search, also have a look at this:

20 Arguments for the Existence of God

... Taken from "Handbook of Christian Apologetics" by Peter Kreeft and Ronald Tacelli. 1994. Chapter 3, pages 48-88

Here is a link to those 20 arguments:
http://www.apologetics.com/default.jsp? ... ments.html

We believe that only some of these arguments, taken individually and separately, demonstrate the existence of a Being that has some of the properties only God can have (no argument proves all the divine attributes); but all twenty taken together, like twined rope, make a very strong case.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For the Christians and seekers here.... this is one book well worth buying!

Link: http://www.gospelcom.net/cgi-ivpress/book.pl/code=1774

 

[thessalonian]

Peter Kreft is excellent.

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

There are many ways to try and "prove" God.... none is individually definitive. But the weight of evidence points towards God. In your search, also have a look at this:

20 Arguments for the Existence of God

... Taken from "Handbook of Christian Apologetics" by Peter Kreeft and Ronald Tacelli. 1994. Chapter 3, pages 48-88

Sweet, I suggested that book...uh anyway.

 

[Free]

Hello Cedric and welcome to the forums.

I do believe in God and that the Bible is his revelation of himself to us. As the others have done I would argue to experience, although there is none in particular. I would also argue to the experience of others, both within and outside the Christian faith. Millions and millions claim to have had spiritual experiences. While I do not want to fallaciously argue to popular opinion or belief, it does add weight to the argument that there is more to nature and to us than meets the eye.

And I would add an argument to reason, that there exists very rational reasons to believe in the existence of a God. From there, there are other rational reasons to believe in the Christian God over others.

As for you, I would like to point something out: if you have moved, or are moving, from atheism to agnosticism, what caused that? If nothing exists outside of nature, why should you even begin to question your previously held beliefs? Is it a feeling that there should be or must be more to existence than living for a mere 85 years or so? If that is the case, how did that feeling get there? Mainly just rheotrical questions, but feel free to answer.

ThinkerMan pointed out "The idea of living forever is certainly seductive" as a reason for believing in the existence of God. However, look at all that science pours into studying aging and prolonging life. Outside of religion wanting to live forever is just as strong as inside and I don't think that it is nearly a strong enough reason to move one from non-belief in God to belief. This causes me to question just why should we all desire to live forever. If this is really all there is, then what is so appealing about living forever?

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

Cedric,

My question is, are sure God exists? If yes how do you know? If no then how can you follow God when you aren't sure?

Yes. It is true I have never seen Him, however I was raised in a Christian home, have pondered His existence and with reason, and my life experiences have provided proof of His existence to me. Many times have I prayed and had prayers answered, I have felt his presence and I have seen Him dramatically change people’s lives. The bottom line is I cannot give you any “proofs†but I can point you toward hints of His existence.

I suggest you continue to listening to the other Christians who have posted. So far I see that they are providing answers far better then I can.

One more thing, I suggest you consider reading some C.S. Lewis books, his non-fiction writings such as “Mere Christianity.†Also consider reading the various Lee Strobel books.

I will pray for you Cedric, good day.

 

[antitox]

I also know that God exists by experience. I was an atheist for 30+ years. I could argue like the atheists ThinkerMan and Quath above. But once you honestly seek the Lord, He will reveal Himself to you. It is His work and His grace.... but we must be willing to accept that gift.

30 years; man what a testimony of God's patience and willingness to keep working on you.

I had a friend with a Phd in physics, a brainy guy, and for many years he was an atheist but later ended up giving his life to Jesus and turned out to be one of the strongest Christians I knew. He even started trying to convince some of the toughest atheists involved in flight programming which he was a part of. He was a great influence to me early on. He would take the challenge whenever there were hard-to-reach people around. Really liked the way he viewed problems; as always having a solution rather than fretting over a setback.

 

[Gary]

God has a sense of humor.... I was also led to evangelize atheists, Muslims and Roman Catholics. As it turns out, there are a lot of similarities!

 

[cly]

My pastor has preached on knowing God and on faith for a couple of sermons recently. During his sermon tonight, he used the verse in Psalm 145:18 to make a point, and I think it could help explain some things I was talking about in my first post on this thread. It says, "The Lord is near unto all them that call upon Him and to all who call upon Him in truth." That's basically saying that if you truly seek Him, He will come to you and show Himself to you.

The second verse that I wanted to point out to you is Ephesians 2:8, which says, "For it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith - and this is not from yourselves, it is a gift from God -" Paul is saying here that we as humans don't even have the capacity to have faith without God giving it to us. James 1:17 says, "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights..." Faith is a "good and perfect gift." It is something God gives us so that we can know Him. Jesus said, "Ask and it shall be given unto you." That means, Cedric, that all you have to do is to ask God to give you faith so that you may know Him, and when you ask, you have to truly mean it.

God knows your heart, and if you honestly want to know Him, He will not deny you the privilege because, get this, He wants to know you too. He wants an intimate relationship with you so much that He sent Jesus, "His only begotten son," to die for your sins, just so that you could come into His presence and know Him. That's a paraphrase of John 3:16-17.

God loves you, Cedric. Don't give up on Him because He won't give up on you. Your asking questions is proof that He is working on your heart. Keep searching and asking. If you truly seek Him, you will find your answers.

Still praying,

CLY

 

[Vic C.]

Great {discussion} thread people. :angel:

 

[thessalonian]

God has a sense of humor.... I was also led to evangelize atheists, Muslims and Roman Catholics. As it turns out, there are a lot of similarities!

There are similarities with aetheists and Catholics? Hey, you know what. I find there are alot of similaritiest between Muslims and Protestants. For one thing many Protestants (including those on this board) have this Oneness concept. Secondly, the Muslims have no legitimate central authority and go basically by sola Koran. Therefore they are very splintered as well. The Muslim relgion also started long after the Aposltes by a man who thought he knew better than anyone for the previous 600 years as well as the Protestant man, Luther who thought that he was God's mouthpiece (like Muhamed), 900 years later. Shall I go on? .