There are several things to note regarding these few words in Luke 23:34, but I will mention just 3. Firstly, forgiveness is only given after a person repents of their wrong doing towards you.If they do not repent, you pray for them,ensuring no ill-feeling,grudges,animosity etc,but you do not forgive. Secondly, it appeared that the enemies of Christ were beyond saving; the mock trial, the clamoring voices "Crucify Him", a death of intense suffering & shame (they couldn't have gone any further,could they?). Yet, our Lord, on the cross, continues to pray for them!! This is a great example to us; when often it appears that our attempts at converting friends and family look doomed to failure, and we almost reach a point of saying "They're not listening, let them get on with it", that we need to continue in prayer. I'm reminded of Elijah (1 Kings 19) after slaying 450 false prophets, was still hounded by Jezebel, and hid himself in a cave; believeng he was the only Christian alive. God rebuked him: "What are you doing here?" (in other words, get on with the job I've commissioned you to do). We are not to give up and feel sorry for ourselves. Thirdly, why did Christ say "Father, forgive them" when He had forgiven people Himself throughout His ministry? This was because at that particular moment He was the sacrificial lamb, therefore unable to excercise His divine authority as God. I pray these few words will help you in your understanding of scripture & a greater knowledge of God.
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Bible Study "Father, forgive them"
- Thread starter andy
- Start date
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Brother Mike
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TOG
Member
I completely disagree with this.
For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you,but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. (Matt. 6:14-15 ESV)
And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. (Mark 11:25 ESV)
Those are just two examples where Jesus tells us to forgive others, with no mention of them repenting first. Consider also the verse you quote as the title of this thread - "Father, forgive them". Did Jesus say that before or after they repented? And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. (Mark 11:25 ESV)
The TOG
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Brother Mike
Guest
I had the same scriptures come to mind, I think Andy is confused on what forgiveness is. We are to hold nothing against anyone, no matter if they ask or not.
If they are allowed the same place back in our life then we would need to hear from them first, but we don't hold grudges or get revenge.
Mike.
In response to the comments made, firstly Matt 5:44 Christ Himself says "PRAY for them which despitefully use you and persecute you" ( He doesn't say "forgive them"). Secondly, Christ came to save sinners (people who realized their sinfulness etc and repented - asked for forgiveness), not people who thought they were saved and hadn't asked. Thirdly, isn't His comment on the cross "Father, forgive them" a natural response any son would say to his father; in that His enemies couldn't have done anything worse than what they'd done,and any father's first thought would be to "retaliate" against this most horrendous crime (the Father could have swallowed them all up in a second). Obviously, as this scenario didn't happen, this helps us to understand God's character.Also, remember that Christ is PRAYING to the Father - praying for forgiveness rather than the act of forgiving. Finally,who am I to forgive myself; I'm nothing.Therefore I have to ask for forgiveness from ALMIGHTY GOD. Therefore, what is my right to forgive others who haven't asked for that forgiveness?
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Brother Mike
Guest
It depends on how you define the Word Forgive Andy. Jesus said when you pray, forgive if you have anything against anyone.
So we have to get an understanding of what Jesus meant and how we are using the Word. In them days if you did not forgive someone then that would mean you are going to get even with them.
We are told not to do that to our enemies. We are to forgive them which means we are not seeking to do them harm or put them down.
Like a wife that gets beat by the Husband. He always ask her to forgive and she being a Christian women does so. (Some women like beatings anyway, it's a strange thing with some of them) This women was told all her life to be submissive to her Husband and to take her beatings like a red headed step child.
That is not what the Lord meant, the man should have been out the first time he hit his wife, should have been booked and charged with domestic violence the first time. The women should have pressed full charges. No man should be hitting a women and no women was designed by God to be abused.
In all that the women can forgive and press charges according to the law. Forgiving means you still love them but does not mean the have a right to hold that same place in your life they once did.
You can steal from me and I'll forgive you and love you, but your not invited over anymore as you have proved to be unfaithful. We don't use the Word to allow people to sin and be unfaithful. We don't use the Word to not hold people responsible for their actions.
Forgive means I'll send you money once you are in prison for your crimes against me.
Mike.
Mike. When you have sinned, you ask God to forgive you. Why don't you forgive yourself? Answer: Because you are you (a sinner), without that authority, and God is God (holy, perfect, Lord of all etc). If someone sins against you, and doesn't ask forgiveness, what do you do? You cannot forgive them; because of what you are in the previous sentence. If you do, you have given yourself authority and placed yourself equal to God!!! Therefore, all you can do is pray that God will send the Holy Spirit to that person, to reveal their sin, repentance, and need of forgiveness. This is clearly taught throughout scripture: look at the Old Testament - did Moses, Aeron, Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel personally forgive the children of Israel for their backsliding/persecution? Of course not!!! They prayed to God in the manner just stated. Secondly, why did the Apostle Paul say the Jews were outside the kingdom of God? Because they were exonerating each other, with no genuine forgiveness from their hearts (they had made themselves equal with God/self-righteousness). If you say I am confused about this doctrine of forgiveness,then you are implying that the Apostle Paul, and all the OT prophets have also misunderstood it, and the Pharisees have understood it correctly!!! I humbly suggest that you look at the whole of scripture,and hopefully you will see that my interpretation is correct.
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Brother Mike
Guest
Hey Partner....... quote me or something else I'll miss your post.
Andy, now I want you to go back and find the place I said your confused. Slow down cowboy, it's gonna be OK.
As I stated, depends on what your definition of forgiveness is. We are to forgive people meaning no retaliation back or revenge but pray for them.
Mar 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
What are you suppose to do Andy, what did Jesus tell you? That's right......... Forgive. So they don't have to ask Andy, Jesus said it would be OK.
Who don't have authority Andy? Lets check............
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Who is suppose to remit sin Andy? That is right, we are.
Jas_5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
who is suppose to pray in faith? the sick healed sins forgiven.
1Jn_5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
What happens if we ask their sin be forgiven? That is right Andy if we ask they are forgiven. They don't have to ask us first, we just have to see the sin.
So lets go back to what I asked Andy, and how you put it........... I humbly suggest you look at all the scriptures...... something like that.
We have the power to go to God and get any sin forgiven (Not the sin unto death though) , we are to forgive those that have done us wrong (Without them having to ask) Those are the scriptures I gave.
you.
Now, just because we forgive sin Andy, does not mean their OK with God. Let's get that straight as I might not get revenge or be mean back, but my not counting what you did against me does not mean God is happy with them. If we ask God, He will forgive them also. We are not required to do that though as Jesus said the sins you remit are the ones that get remitted. Our choice........
There are some things in the body of Christ God is not OK with............. Like being late all the time, we might tell them no problem but it's a issue with God not being faithful. Things like that.
Mike.
Andy, now I want you to go back and find the place I said your confused. Slow down cowboy, it's gonna be OK.
As I stated, depends on what your definition of forgiveness is. We are to forgive people meaning no retaliation back or revenge but pray for them.
Mar 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
What are you suppose to do Andy, what did Jesus tell you? That's right......... Forgive. So they don't have to ask Andy, Jesus said it would be OK.
Who don't have authority Andy? Lets check............
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Who is suppose to remit sin Andy? That is right, we are.
Jas_5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
who is suppose to pray in faith? the sick healed sins forgiven.
1Jn_5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
What happens if we ask their sin be forgiven? That is right Andy if we ask they are forgiven. They don't have to ask us first, we just have to see the sin.
So lets go back to what I asked Andy, and how you put it........... I humbly suggest you look at all the scriptures...... something like that.
We have the power to go to God and get any sin forgiven (Not the sin unto death though) , we are to forgive those that have done us wrong (Without them having to ask) Those are the scriptures I gave.
you.
Now, just because we forgive sin Andy, does not mean their OK with God. Let's get that straight as I might not get revenge or be mean back, but my not counting what you did against me does not mean God is happy with them. If we ask God, He will forgive them also. We are not required to do that though as Jesus said the sins you remit are the ones that get remitted. Our choice........
There are some things in the body of Christ God is not OK with............. Like being late all the time, we might tell them no problem but it's a issue with God not being faithful. Things like that.
Mike.
Mike, thanks for your reply. I made it clear in my original thread that we should ask God to forgive others and that we shouldn't harbour grudges, however the whole of scripture, whichever book you turn to, screams "Repentance before forgiveness". There isn't one book that screams at you "Forgiveness before repentance". This, in and of itself is enough to make it clear that where there is no repentance,there is equally no forgiveness. However, we'll just have to agree to disagree, but I'm sure we'll talk again on a different subject soon. Take care. Andy
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Brother Mike
Guest
Would it be possible to forgive them..... (Not hold a grudge or get even) but they still not be right with God????
Mike.