Fellowship with those who deviate from orthodoxy?

[Mathetes]

Hello all,

I'm posting this question on this forum because it has to do with orthodox/unorthodox doctrine and how we interact with those who deviate from orthodoxy.

I have recently discovered a house church in my town. I was very excited and happy to make this discovery because I have a passion for this type of gathering and also because it is so close to where I live. However, on my first visit I found out that at least one (maybe two) individuals there adhere to "Jesus Only" teachings. I did some research on this and found out that it has to do with the Pentecostal Oneness theology, which is a rejection of the Trinity (though I could be wrong about this finding.)

I asked the man who hosts the gathering at his house, and he responded by saying that the gathering is not to debate theology but to build up believers. I have problems with that response, but I won't get into that right now.

In all honesty, I don't feel comfortable having fellowship with people who hold to such a teaching because they are essentially engaging in idolatry, i.e., they are not worshiping God in spirit and in truth, and instead they are worshiping in a manner that is inconsistent with the way God has revealed Himself in Scripture. I feel that I would be giving tacit approval to their beliefs if I were to sit with them in a gathering for worship and fellowship as if they were not doing anything wrong.

On the other hand, I don't want to be so stringent that I cut myself off from people.

Any thoughts on this? If you were in my place, what would you do?

Thanks.

 

[Mathetes]

One thing I should add to what I said above: I have no desire to debate the doctrine of the Trinity. What I am really looking for is advice and insights from Christians who believe in the Trinity regarding what they'd do in my situation.

Thanks.

 

[Sothenes]

I asked the man who hosts the gathering at his house, and he responded by saying that the gathering is not to debate theology but to build up believers. I have problems with that response, but I won't get into that right now.

Are the men just coming to listen to the truth or are they trying to influence others?

2 John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed:

The Christian Research Institute has taught that this verse means to not give anyone a platform to teach their truth and it would apply to the House Church.

I would have a problem with the leader's statement. Was he accurate about how he felt when he said that? We don't want to push anyone away but if the leader is preaching the truth and the Oneness Pentecostals are just listening then can you live and let live?

 

[Mathetes]

Are the men just coming to listen to the truth or are they trying to influence others?

I've only been to the house church once, but the one time I went it didn't seem like those who seemed to hold to the aberrant teaching were going out of their way to influence others, but influence can take place subtly. At any rate, they were not actively teaching others the details of Oneness theology or any anti-Trinitarian doctrine.

2 John 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed:

The Christian Research Institute has taught that this verse means to not give anyone a platform to teach their truth and it would apply to the House Church.

Funny you should mention this: this is the very verse I read aloud to him yesterday when we met to talk. After reading the passage, though, I became uncertain as to whether it is referring to rejection of the Trinity. It makes it clear that we are to reject fellowship with those who deny that Jesus came in the flesh and with those who do not abide in the teaching of Christ -- but that is a pretty general statement. It's tough for me to narrow that down to include people who reject the Trinity.

I would have a problem with the leader's statement. Was he accurate about how he felt when he said that?

Yes, I believe so because he said it more than once -- via email and also in person.

We don't want to push anyone away but if the leader is preaching the truth and the Oneness Pentecostals are just listening then can you live and let live?

I certainly would like to, considering that I really want to be involved in a house church. I'm thinking that perhaps I should attend one or two more times to get more of a feel for what exactly goes on during the gatherings. Also, of course, I need to continue praying for God's guidance on the matter.

 

[Sothenes]

I certainly would like to, considering that I really want to be involved in a house church. I'm thinking that perhaps I should attend one or two more times to get more of a feel for what exactly goes on during the gatherings. Also, of course, I need to continue praying for God's guidance on the matter.

I think you belong in a healthy and well balanced church and not a place where essential Christian doctrine is compromised. If a pilot compromised on flying from San Diego to Hawaii and was off by one degree, he would never have visual range of the Islands. That is called being lost because they are already lost.

The truth is narrow. If you want to land a plane and you think the runway is to narrow because it is only 50 foot wide and you want to land the plane in the gravel, the plane can bounce on the ground and your plane can do a belly flip or maybe your propellor will hit the ground and get torn up. And remember that a lot of private club insurance doesn't cover those kinds of accidents because the pilot of that church wanted to do it his way.

If it was me, I wouldn't go back because they want you to build on sinking sand:

Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Matthew 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

Matthew 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

Matthew 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

 

[Sothenes]

I've only been to the house church once,

Its like people who want to make friends with me over the Internet after talking for only five minutes. Can you make a friend and tell all things about them in only five minutes?

How a person behaves can only be discerned after you have conflict.

Some churches are more out to change you than to be changed... Did you notice that the teacher was not willing to change his position because he was there only to "build up"? He wants you to change and he's not going to budge.

 

[R7-12]

Hi Mathetes,

I can appreciate the situation you're currently dealing with although I am neither a Trinitarian nor a Oneness Theology believer.

John 17:3 states that eternal life is predicated upon KNOWING the only true God AND Jesus Christ whom He sent. Thus, a correct understanding of who God is and who His son is must be sought in order to have the opportunity to know the one true God and Messiah His son.

To accept or condone something that is BELIEVED to be contrary to the law of God (regardless of whether it is in fact wrong or not) is sin.

for whatever is not from faith is sin (Romans 14:23b).

Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin (James 4:17).

who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them (Romans 2:15).

Your dilemma may in fact be the impetus you require to undertake a sincere and thorough study of the matter. Your ability to accept the covenant of God depends on it. I know of study material that addresses this issue very well - if you are interested.

I hope this helps,
R7-12

 

[thessalonian]

Some day I need to make a list of all the different beliefs and "Christian" religions that I have run accross on the net. It boggles my mind. Henry is a house Church trinitarian. Now you tell us there are house Church modalists. John sounds like an SDA but he trashes Sputnik and SDA. Vic has SDA leanings but does not agree with sputty on homosexuality. Then we have the no church crowd here such as ginger and there used to be Merry. She had not been to Church in fourty years. Of course we have Imigican who is also a no-churcher that thinks he has things right. I could go on and on and include the mish mash of beliefs I've run in to on other boards. Everyone thinks they have it rigth.

Sorry for digressings. I just find it all very interesting. :o

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

Mathetes,

I would give my opinion on the matter but Sothenes pretty much said it all. So basically all I can offer is a promise of prayer for you. Choosing a church to join is no doubt a difficult decision. I pray God will lead you to a church that does not teach false doctrines and preaches the gospel.

 

[Klee shay]

Then we have the no church crowd here such as ginger and there used to be Merry. She had not been to Church in fourty years.

I do hope that's a typo Thess, because if Merry menagarie hadn't been to church in over fourty years, then a decade before her actual conception doesn't count. Merry is only thirty years old. :

 

[thessalonian]

Then we have the no church crowd here such as ginger and there used to be Merry. She had not been to Church in fourty years.

I do hope that's a typo Thess, because if Merry menagarie hadn't been to church in over fourty years, then a decade before her actual conception doesn't count. Merry is only thirty years old. :

Perhaps I have the wrong person (someone on this board boasted of no attendance of a church in 40 years). It's hard to keep all the different individuals with different doctrines and claims straight on this board. My apologies if anyone was offended by something I said in error.

God bless

 

[unred typo]

Personally, I don’t think Jesus cares a rat’s behind about whether you believe or understand the trinity or not. The doctrine referred to in that verse is Christ’s one essential doctrine that both he and his father are known for; love.

Read the entire letter and especially notice verse 10.

2 John 1:10
And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.

The reason it is so connected to believing and confessing that Jesus has come in the flesh can be explained by any 5 yr old’s favorite memory verse, John 3:16.

If God so loved us, beloved, we ought to love one another and find unity in love, not doctrines that Jesus didn‘t even define and state in such unambiguous terms.

Before you go to the house church, do your Lord a favor and learn what Jesus taught about love or you will only spoil what fellowship there is.

 

[Klee shay]

Thanks for that Thess. No offence taken on my part...it made me chuckle though. I'm just a few years older than Merry and it made me look twice, LOL. :

Cheers.

 

[unred typo]

To read 1 and 2 John and suppose that the doctrine referred to is simply that Jesus has come in the flesh, is spiritual tunnel vision. The phrase, ‘Jesus Christ has come in the flesh’, is not merely a statement of fact that ‘the one true God of the Jews’ has come to us in ‘the second person of the trinity.’ It isn’t even that ‘the second person of the trinity’ has come to live as a man and die for our sins and resurrect to heaven again. It is that the God of the universe has come in human flesh to demonstrate the great sacrificial love that he has for us and this amazing great mercy and grace that he has shown us demands that we who believe also follow in his steps to love one another, for it is by this love within us that God will consent to dwell in us and raise up our mortal bodies. God dwells in him that dwells in love.

Dear Mathetes,
To insist on your translation of a man-made construct concerning the unfathomable nature of God, his Son, his Word, his Holy Spirit, and any other unrevealed ‘persons’ of the ‘godhead’, is not the spirit of love that God demands of us. Judge this rather, that no one put a stumbling block or an occasion to fall in another’s way. Where is this house church that is dedicated to learning this principle? I would want to go there and be built up in love, not doctrines that divide believers.
:fadein:

 

[Sothenes]

To read 1 and 2 John and suppose that the doctrine referred to is simply that Jesus has come in the flesh, is spiritual tunnel vision. The phrase, ‘Jesus Christ has come in the flesh’, is not merely a statement of fact that ‘the one true God of the Jews’ has come to us in ‘the second person of the trinity.’ It isn’t even that ‘the second person of the trinity’ has come to live as a man and die for our sins and resurrect to heaven again. It is that the God of the universe has come in human flesh to demonstrate the great sacrificial love that he has for us and this amazing great mercy and grace that he has shown us demands that we who believe also follow in his steps to love one another, for it is by this love within us that God will consent to dwell in us and raise up our mortal bodies. God dwells in him that dwells in love.

Dear Mathetes,
To insist on your translation of a man-made construct concerning the unfathomable nature of God, his Son, his Word, his Holy Spirit, and any other unrevealed ‘persons’ of the ‘godhead’, is not the spirit of love that God demands of us. Judge this rather, that no one put a stumbling block or an occasion to fall in another’s way. Where is this house church that is dedicated to learning this principle? I would want to go there and be built up in love, not doctrines that divide believers.
:fadein:

You are assuming that God did not breathe out the scriptures and you are using your own man made construct of interpretation.

Jesus said,"For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law." (Matthew 10:35) The truth that we have divides people between the goats and the sheep or the people who believe and the people who don't believe.

Loving our enemies does not necessarily make them our friend but if you love them at the expense of loving God and loving the Church then Jesus says you aren't worthy to be his disciple:

Jesus said,"He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."-Matthew 10:37

So if you think that loving people is more important than following what Jesus said in His word then you aren't worthy to be His disciple because that is what Jesus said. The truth is that you are loving your self instead of denying yourself because it is His will that we follow and Jesus said," And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." so if you aren't taking up your cross and supporting the Words of Jesus, you aren't worthy of what Jesus said.

Galatians 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

And the fact that Oneness Pentecostals believe in a different Jesus is a denial of the true Jesus to which Jesus says:

Matthew 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

If you believe that you are loving people and not telling people the truth then you are really lieing to them which isn't loving at all. That is an inconsistency which would make anyone a hypocrite. Telling people that they have to believe in the true version of God is loving to help people to avoid hell and lieing to them because being polite is more loving than telling them truth is essentially similar to what Jesus told the Pharisees that they were straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel (Matthew 23:24) because you are straining at loving (watering down the truth to be polite) and swallowing (allowing them to go to hell) a camel except you are doing things like but not as a Pharisee because you are more cunning.

Galatians 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

 

[unred typo]

You are assuming that I assume that God did not breathe out the scriptures. Actually, what I’m saying is that the scriptures are not as focused on the metaphysical structure of God as they are on the essential theme that God is love and that he wants us to love one another.

That isn‘t the only assumption you made that I would like to address. First of all, I don’t even own a camel and if I did, I wouldn’t try swallowing it, even if it was shredded in barbeque sauce on a toasted bun with a pickle. Secondly, you are not my enemy, even if you are completely confused. Satan has blinded the minds of those who have lost sight of the true gospel message. He is public enemy #1. Thirdly, preaching sacrificial love for one another and God is not “watering down the truth to be polite“ or “allowing them to go to hell,†but exactly the opposite.

Also, Jesus didn’t pray that believers would be divided. In fact he prayed that they would be one just as he was one with his heavenly Father. He said that by this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one to another.

You think it is love to insist that your own personal finite view of the infinite must be agreed to in order for you to call another person who loves God and his Son, Jesus, a brother in Christ? Jesus said his brethren were those who do the will of his father in heaven. Do you know what the father‘s will is?
Sothenes 1:1 “Thou shall know the proper order and exact terminology describing the godhead structure, and turn not away from this doctrine, even if it can not be understood or explained to anyone’s complete and utter satisfaction. Anyone who willfully proclaims that Jesus is the son of God but neglects or refuses to say he is the second person of the trinity is anti christ and he shall be cast forever into the everlasting fires of hell and there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.â€Â

Actually, that’s not the verse I had in mind. :roll:

What are the words of Jesus that I am not supporting? Who is denying Jesus? I thought he said:
Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Jhn 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Jhn 15:17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mar 12:30-31 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment. And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil.

Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Jhn 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Jhn 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

You don’t seem to know much about the problem with the Pharisees if you think preaching love is “straining at a gnatâ€Â! Read Jesus’ words carefully:
Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

If you think believing your own private selection of facts about God is the thing that saves, read 1 Corinthians 13, especially verse 2:
And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing.

 

[Sothenes]

Also, Jesus didn’t pray that believers would be divided. In fact he prayed that they would be one just as he was one with his heavenly Father.

Cultic conformity is not Biblical Unity and the ones with schismatic doctrines are the ones causing division.

I do not teach error at all costs because we have to love one another. The fact that you can quote "love" one another and believe error does not mean you have unity. That is a false or make believe unity. Its putting on an acting face.

 

[Sothenes]

You think it is love to insist that your own personal finite view of the infinite must be agreed to in order for you to call another person who loves God and his Son, Jesus, a brother in Christ? Jesus said his brethren were those who do the will of his father in heaven. Do you know what the father‘s will is?

"Can two walk together, except they be agreed?"-Amos 3:3

If you read the questions in Amos 3:3 and after, they are all rhetorical with the answer being "no".

"A perverse heart will be far from me. I will have nothing to do with evil."-Psalm 101:4

Do you know what the Father's will is if you agree with evil but want to protect unity at all costs by loving? God says,"I will have nothing to do with evil."

Matthew 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me.

Having love doesn't mean that you are Christian because the Bible says:

Matthew 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

The Father's will is:

John 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

If you are worship with lies because you want to love your own then you don't worship God in spirit or truth. It is a lie.

 

[Sothenes]

You don’t seem to know much about the problem with the Pharisees if you think preaching love is “straining at a gnatâ€Â! Read Jesus’ words carefully:
Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

The verse does mention Pharisee but I was more thinking of Sadducees under that verse and how Jesus would have applied it which I believe is how you interpreted it.

 

[Sothenes]

If you think believing your own private selection of facts about God is the thing that saves, read 1 Corinthians 13, especially verse 2:
And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing.

If you are looking for the gospel which saves, you are in the wrong chapter. Try looking in 1 Corinthians 15 which says,"By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." The message of the gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus and since you want to love a different Jesus (Galatians 1:8-9), you haven't kept in memory what Paul preached.