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[_ Old Earth _] Findings of Evolutionary Development and Primate Brains.

God formed man (have him his form)...

If you're willing to admit that much, why not just accept the way He did, it as well?

you either believe Him or you do not....He formed him out of the matter available on the earth...

Yep. You just want to simplify the process for Him. But as you learned, He did it as the evidence indicates. As He says, all living things were brought forth from the Earth. But man is different because he is directly given an immortal soul by God. So our bodies are formed naturally, but our souls are not.

Let go of pride and accept it His way. It could be very good for your soul.
 
If you're willing to admit that much, why not just accept the way He did, it as well?



Yep. You just want to simplify the process for Him. But as you learned, He did it as the evidence indicates. As He says, all living things were brought forth from the Earth. But man is different because he is directly given an immortal soul by God. So our bodies are formed naturally, but our souls are not.

Let go of pride and accept it His way. It could be very good for your soul.


As I have said before, in another thread, God formed man with the same hands that scribed the ten commandments in the tablet of stone.
He formed this first man, Adam, in His image and brought him to life by breathing life directly into his nostrils. Adam then became the first human. Living, breathing and with a soul.

It is written plain as day in the scriptures.

To take the scriptures below and twist them into "god made man by billions of years of evolution" is dangerous. There was no man before Adam, no woman before Adam, All of man kind came from Adam who was made with the hands of God to be an image of God to fellowship with God, given Life and a soul from the breath of God.

All other creatures were formed by the simple words of God. Yet He personally formed us intimately with His hands and we are alive and have a soul due to God's own breath.

Genesis 2:7New International Version (NIV)
7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
and:


Psalm 119:73New International Version (NIV)
י
73 Your hands made me and formed me;
give me understanding to learn your commands.
 
I have very little ego and I even am not a strict literalist....I was an agnostic and believed as you do, and fought against theists for years. I also believe the evidence, just not the pre-conceived conclusion based interpretation OF the evidence. Yes the sea and the earth obeyed god and brought forth creatures AND God also MADE Creatures. And YES there are many varieties, some which developed their unique varieties over time...simple bass pairs became many varieties of bass....simple varieties of dogs became many varieties of dogs...simple birds of the air became many varieties of birds of the air....nothing in science proves otherwise...it does however show us this. It does support the development of many varieties of each of these but DOES NOT prove one became the other (though many different creatures do share similarities in form and function). The thing I like about this solution to what is demonstrated, observable, experienced, and test worthy, is that there is no intentional deceptive attempts necessary (like the implications intended by the Samotherium article), just statements which are equally plausible,,,
 
As I have said before, in another thread, God formed man with the same hands that scribed the ten commandments in the tablet of stone.

According to Jesus, God doesn't have hands. He says God is a spirit, and He says that a spirit has no body.

He formed this first man, Adam, in His image and brought him to life by breathing life directly into his nostrils. Adam then became the first human. Living, breathing and with a soul.

The account shows that man was from the earth as the other animals, but that God gave him an immortal soul directly, as He does with each of us. This is consistent with evolution, as Christians generally realize.

To take the scriptures below and twist them into "god made man by billions of years of evolution" is dangerous.

God is truth. So there is nothing to fear from the truth. Man's interpretation of God's word may vary, but the testimony He left for us to find, remains constant.

All other creatures were formed by the simple words of God.

God says that He used pre-existing creation to make them.
 
I have very little ego and I even am not a strict literalist....

I was an agnostic and believed as you do,

If you were an agnostic, you didn't believe at all as I do. But perhaps you've still got some agnostic traits?

I also believe the evidence, just not the pre-conceived conclusion based interpretation OF the evidence. Yes the sea and the earth obeyed god and brought forth creatures AND God also MADE Creatures. And YES there are many varieties, some which developed their unique varieties over time...simple bass pairs became many varieties of bass....simple varieties of dogs became many varieties of dogs...simple birds of the air became many varieties of birds of the air....nothing in science proves otherwise...

As you have seen, the evidence clearly shows birds evolved from thecodont dinosaurs. Perhaps you'd want to see what features of birds are not also found in dinosaurs. It's a sobering process for creationists.

Likewise, as you saw, there is no point at which you can say "mammal" as opposed to "reptile" when you find all the transitional forms.

It's a simple and very clear set of evidence. Why not just accept it His way and be done with it?
 
According to Jesus, God doesn't have hands. He says God is a spirit, and He says that a spirit has no body.
Jesus is God as part of the trinity. Jesus created the earth. If you want to say He didn't have hands until He was the infant Jesus, then that's your interpretation. The scripture from Psalms is God's word and simply states that God created Adam with His hands.
The account shows that man was from the earth as the other animals, but that God gave him an immortal soul directly, as He does with each of us. This is consistent with evolution, as Christians generally realize.
That's not what the scriptures say. They say "living" soul. They also say that Eve was the first woman. How could evolution have gone through millions of years to have "man" evolve without a female?
Again, your interpretation of the scriptures.
God is truth. So there is nothing to fear from the truth. Man's interpretation of God's word may vary, but the testimony He left for us to find, remains constant.
Your point here?
God says that He used pre-existing creation to make them.
Can you give scripture to back up this statement?
 
As you have seen, the evidence clearly shows birds evolved from thecodont dinosaurs. Perhaps you'd want to see what features of birds are not also found in dinosaurs. It's a sobering process for creationists.

Likewise, as you saw, there is no point at which you can say "mammal" as opposed to "reptile" when you find all the transitional forms.

It's a simple and very clear set of evidence. Why not just accept it His way and be done with it?
From http://www.cstnews.com/Code/FaithEvl.html

Dr. David Kitts, professor of geology at the University of Oklahoma said, "Evolution requires intermediate forms between species and paleontology does not provide them...." And Lord Zuckerman admitted there are no "fossil traces" of transformation from an ape-like creature to man! Even Stephen J. Gould of Harvard admitted, "The fossil record with its abrupt transitions offers no support for gradual change."

Famous fossil expert, Niles Eldredge confessed, "...geologists have found rock layers of all divisions of the last 500 million years and no transitional forms were contained in them." Dr. Eldredge further said, "...no one has yet found any evidence of such transitional creatures."

Concerning transitional fossils, world famous paleontologist Colin Patterson admitted that "there is not one such fossil for which one could make a watertight argument." Not one.

Dr. Soren Lovtrup, Professor of Zoo-physiology at the University of Umea in Sweden wrote:

"I believe that one day the Darwinian myth will be ranked the greatest deceit in the history of science." He also said, "Evolution is 'anti-science.'" And so it is.
 
Dr. David Kitts, professor of geology at the University of Oklahoma said, "Evolution requires intermediate forms between species and paleontology does not provide them...."

Let's test his assumption. Name me any two major groups, said to be evolutionarily connected, and I'll see if I can find a transitional for you. What have you got to lose?

And Lord Zuckerman admitted there are no "fossil traces" of transformation from an ape-like creature to man!

Man is an ape-like creature. Do you have a source? SInce we have numerous examples of transitionals from apes to man, it seems someone has misquoted Solly. As you see from the OP, there is a great deal of genetic and anatomical evidence, but is you like, I can show you the transitional nature of hominin fossils. Would you like to see?

Even Stephen J. Gould of Harvard admitted, "The fossil record with its abrupt transitions offers no support for gradual change."

Quote-mining, especially when you haven't actually read the original work, is dangerous:

Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists — whether through design or stupidity, I do not know — as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. The punctuations occur at the level of species; directional trends (on the staircase model) are rife at the higher level of transitions within major groups.
"Evolution as Fact and Theory" in Science and Creationism (New York: Oxford University Press, 1984), p. 124.

One dishonest trick in quote-mining, is to cut something out of a sentence to make it look like something it is not:
Famous fossil expert, Niles Eldredge confessed, "...geologists have found rock layers of all divisions of the last 500 million years and no transitional forms were contained in them." Dr. Eldredge further said, "...no one has yet found any evidence of such transitional creatures."

As you might know, Eldredge is who Gould is referring to when he says "we." Eldredge has documented numerous transitional forms.

Even honest creationists admit that there are numerous transitionals.
Evidences for Darwin’s second expectation - of stratomorphic intermediate species - include such species as Baragwanathia27 (between rhyniophytes and lycopods), Pikaia28 (between echinoderms and chordates), Purgatorius29 (between the tree shrews and the primates), and Proconsul30 (between the non-hominoid primates and the hominoids). Darwin’s third expectation - of higher-taxon stratomorphic intermediates - has been confirmed by such examples as the mammal-like reptile groups31 between the reptiles and the mammals, and the phenacdontids32 between the horses and their presumed ancestors. Darwin’s fourth expectation - of stratomorphic series - has been confirmed by such examples as the early bird series,33 the tetrapod series,34,35 the whale series,36 the various mammal series of the Cenozoic37 (for example, the horse series, the camel series, the elephant series, the pig series, the titanothere series, etc.), the Cantius and Plesiadapus primate series,38 and the hominid series.39 Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact. It certainly CANNOT said that traditional creation theory expected (predicted) any of these fossil finds.
Young Earth Creationist Kurt Wise Toward a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms

Notice that your creationists offer no evidence for their beliefs, but an honest creationist cites numerous examples of transitionals.
 
Man is an ape-like creature.

You have it backwards! Apes are man-like Creatures. Maybe the best that Nature could do. Comparing apes to man is like comparing addition to Quantum physics.
 
Barbarian observes:
Man is an ape-like animal.

You have it backwards! Apes are man-like Creatures. Maybe the best that Nature could do.

God doesn't do any substandard work. Apes are as well-adapted to their way of life as we are to ours. Better, really, since farming disrupted the way of life to which we had become adapted.

Comparing apes to man is like comparing addition to Quantum physics.

Over a century ago, Huxley showed that there was no structure in the human brain that was not in an ape's brain. Turns out, their brains memorize better than ours, they are capable of inferring mental states in others, and they are capable of lying, as we are. They have rudimentary language capability, make tools, plan ahead, and do many, many other things humans do.
 
Yet no other species of animal, including the apes, have our imagination's private Technicolor experience…or are able to create and understand images of art and drawing done by others nor can they make such works....only humankind can create that which has not been created (in the image of their creator)

Then there is our amazing level of abstract thinking…like doing math...MAYBE one can CONDITION an intelligent ape to choose a correct answer if this is how they get their food...in relation to this, a certain ability to distinguish is seen when humans are offered food or a stone...when humans see that the one offering is not looking they do not demonstrate associated gestures, whereas chimps consistently gesture even the one making the offer is a robot with no eyes at all.

Formulating group plans and team efforts…chimps act in groups but with no specified roles…

Humans constantly invoke unobservable phenomena and variables to explain why certain things are happening. Chimps operate in the world of concrete, tangible things that can be seen.

Humans consider non-tangibles as part of their universal framework…

Humans develop purposeful rituals that require others and also artifacts…

Humans make moral judgments as well as produce engineered solutions to problems (sometimes as a cooperative team)…

Humans exhibit practiced social skills

Even little HUMAN children can go way beyond presyntactic language into characteristic structures with full comprehension….even the most intelligent Ape cannot do this

Little HUMAN children perform far beyond the most intelligent apes by being able to use inductive reasoning processes (Apes cannot)

Humans (even little children) show regard for others even to the point of self sacrifice

Humans study and record information and pass down what is learned (in fact we study apes but they cannot not study us)

We even devise complex culture that in turn shapes us

In fact an experiment was designed to test the hypothesis that humans have special skills in social cognition (far beyond any other creature). Two and one half year old human toddlers were tested against adult chimpanzees and orangutans for cognitive abilities in spatial, quantitative, and causality processing, along with social cognitive abilities in social learning, communication, and theory of mind (gaze following and understanding intentions). Although toddler humans and intelligent adult apes have about the same capabilities in spatial observation, counting, and causality, human toddlers were far superior to chimps in areas of social cognition. (see Riedl, K., K. Jensen, J. Call, and M. Tomasello, No third-party punishment in Chimpanzees, from the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science, 2012

So just from this handful of examples (of which there are many more) show how the similarities in material aspects of their biology are not defining when it comes to comparison.
 
So, apes are like humans, but less intelligent, even if they have many human attributes. And the evidence overwhelmingly shows that they and humans have a common ancestor.

Genetics, anatomy,behavior, biochemistry, and other sources all say there's a common ancestor.

Why not just accept it the way God did it?
 
the evidence overwhelmingly shows that they and humans have a common ancestor.

No! It is interpreted to fit the preconceived idea.

Why not just accept it the way God did it?

I do, but first I had to realize He did it Himself. I admit that was hard at first but then He allowed me to see through the propaganda machine.

Genetics, anatomy, behavior, biochemistry, and other sources all say there's a common ancestor.

Well I will agree that geneticists, anatomists, biochemists, and others say that’s what it says but what they mean is that is how they explain what they see.
 
Barbarian observes:
So, apes are like humans, but less intelligent, even if they have many human attributes. And the evidence overwhelmingly shows that they and humans have a common ancestor.

No! It is interpreted to fit the preconceived idea.

Sorry, the post-modern belief that there is no objective truth for us to learn, doesn't convince me. There is reality, and it can be understood from evidence. God isn't neutral on this, BTW:

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.

Barbarian suggests:
Why not just accept it the way God did it?

I do, but first I had to realize He did it Himself.

So why is it hard to accept what He's showing you in His creation?

Barbarian observes:
Genetics, anatomy, behavior, biochemistry, and other sources all say there's a common ancestor.

Well I will agree that geneticists, anatomists, biochemists, and others say that’s what it says but what they mean is that is how they explain what they see.

Sorry, that dodge doesn't make any sense to me. God gave you intelligence and curiosity for a reason. It's a disservice to Him to refuse to use it.
 
So, apes are like humans, but less intelligent, even if they have many human attributes. And the evidence overwhelmingly shows that they and humans have a common ancestor.

Genetics, anatomy,behavior, biochemistry, and other sources all say there's a common ancestor.

Why not just accept it the way God did it?
Why not accept the way God told us that He did it and not assume just because they look very vaguely similar that one morphed into the other by chance over long long long periods of time.
Similarities indicate a similar designer not similar ancestor.
 
Why not accept the way God told us that He did it

He didn't give us the details. He just said that the earth brought forth living things, as he intended. The details don't deny that, but they are inconsistent with most forms of creationism. As you might know, YE creationism, with the ex nihilo doctrine, denies what God says in Genesis.

and not assume just because they look very vaguely similar that one morphed into the other by chance over long long long periods of time.

"Vaguely similar" is not part of evolutionary theory. Genetics, for example, shows how DNA documents common descent. You've confused homology and analogy. Would you like to see why homology demonstrates common descent? And of course, Darwin's great discovery was that it was not by chance.

"Most people are down on things they aren't up on."
Everette Dirkson


Similarities indicate a similar designer not similar ancestor.

There are no "similar designers." There's just one Creator, not many, and He does not have to figure anything out.
 
Barbarian observes:
Man is an ape-like creature.

A dolphin is a fish like creature too.

Nope. It has lungs, an ungulate digestive system, hair (when young), are warm-blooded, have a mammalian ear unlike the lateral line system of fish, a mammalian nervous system, and so on. All they have in common is a general shape. But this is analogy; all fast-moving animals in water have the same shape. The shape is just adaptation to the environment, not common descent. Again you've confused analogy with homology.

Humans and other hominins are of common descent because they exhibit homology and transitional forms linking them.
 
The earth brought forth creatures yes but also God made (gave form to) others...but most importantly God made mankind's body from the same elements of the planet, and then animated His designed form by His own doing, called "the breath of Life". Or He did not and actually we are here by some other set of circumstances and the whole God thing is a lie...does God lie (God forbid)?

Because two FISH both have large dorsal fins and breath through gills and have longer than normal tailfins is homology but does not mean one came from the other OR that they necessarily came from a common ancestor either...it just means these two kinds have similar anatomical features...
 
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