? for christians, your "sinless state" in heaven?

[Orion]

Bob, you're going to have to explain what you mean by "compelling data".

 

[Rick W]

Orion,
You live in a country with laws. According to these laws if you violate none then you do not transgress against those laws. Do you have free will? Are you an individual?
Suppose now you move to Canada where there are different laws. Again you abide by those laws, differing laws than the ones you once lived under. You are sinless as far as the Canadian Government is concerned. Do you have free will? Are you not the same indiviual as you were in the states?

To live in sin is to follow the laws of sin. Therefore you are sinful. When you change your mind and heart to abide God's law you are sinless. You're still you. But you choose to abide not the laws of sin but the Laws of God.

 

[Orion]

That would be a true assessment, Potluck, and I make it a point to do just that, abide by the laws. I mostly do them because most are right. Now, I have my opinions about some laws, but know that the only way to change them is to elect the right people. . . . . and I'm side tracking now.

As for "God's laws", it is true what you say. However, my question is how one would go through eternity without breaking one of those laws. If I run a red light, even though I'm not really a felon, there are consequences. If a law is broken in Heaven, . . .what would be the penalty? If no one CAN break a law, does that change who we will be, fundamentally, from what we are now?

 

[Rick W]

Why would you break a heavenly law when there would be no desire to do so?

 

[Orion]

Um. . . . . what would "Heavenly Law" be? :-?

Why do people break laws on earth? Why do GOOD people break laws? It isn't that they are evil, directly, . . . but sometimes desire creates a situation where they weigh the balance and take the road of "not so good". It is our human nature to desire, work for, and obtain what we don't have. Is all desire fufilled in Heaven? Then what challenges us?

 

[Alabaster]

Um. . . . . what would "Heavenly Law" be? :-?

Why do people break laws on earth? Why do GOOD people break laws? It isn't that they are evil, directly, . . . but sometimes desire creates a situation where they weigh the balance and take the road of "not so good". It is our human nature to desire, work for, and obtain what we don't have. Is all desire fufilled in Heaven? Then what challenges us?

Good point. There will be no need of law in heaven!

What will challenge us is our employment in the Kingdom! We are only here for a wisp of time, but we are created for much higher occupations! We will reign and rule over this earth for 1,000 years with Christ and after that, well---the "sky's the limit"! We will be off to new exploits and tasks in the universe! Every one of them will be suited to who we are created to be!

 

[Rick W]

It is our human nature to desire...

Now we're getting somewhere.
You've hit the nail on the head.
It's our nature to sin. Right from birth we must be taught what is good. We attempt to deter sin with all the laws we have on the books. Nobody has to teach us how not to share, how to lie, how to make excuse, to steal... it's all there within us. This is the nature of sin, the law of sin.
When we gain the law of God we gain the nature of God. We become as He is. The sinful nature is dead, the nature of God is within us.

Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Paul does not confuse ordinances and regulations with the nature of man. "But I see another law in my members" refers to his sinful nature.

Therefore the sinful nature is gone replaced by the nature of God. And by His nature there is no need for rules and regulations for the sinful nature no longer exists. As individual as we are in evil so shall we be individual in good.

 

[BobRyan]

Um. . . . . what would "Heavenly Law" be? :-?

Why do people break laws on earth? Why do GOOD people break laws?

Perfect Heaven -- and yet 1/3 of the angels fell into "sin" -- sin is violation of the Law of God as we see in 1John 3.

Perfect humans - yet Adam and Eve fell into sin -- sin is violation of the Law of God -- the commands of God.

It isn't that they are evil, directly, . . . but sometimes desire creates a situation where they weigh the balance and take the road of "not so good". It is our human nature to desire, work for, and obtain what we don't have. Is all desire fufilled in Heaven? Then what challenges us?

We are humans that have sinful natures. Take a loot at Romans 3 "none righteous no not one".

Jeremiah points out "the heart is desperately wicked".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Rick W]

The nature of God as we shall be. There will be no need for rules, regulations or ordinances.

1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

 

[BobRyan]

Let's take a simple law -- "Do not murder" -- and observe that we are not suppose to be breaking that today. Suppose that tomorrow "nobody murders" -- is the law abolished?

At the time Lucifer was created - nobody was lying -- nobody murdering -- does that in anyway indicate that those actions were sin IF you did them -- but they were sin "defined without law"?

in Romans 4 we have "Where there is no law there is no transgression" because sin is "defined as " transgression of law. To lie when no law against lying exists -- would not be sin. Sin is "defined" as transgression of Law. Law is "defined" as the Word of God -- the commands of God.

God said to "Cain" -- "Sin is crouching at your door -- you must master it" -- indicating that Law was defined - sin was "defined" even without the law being written on stone yet.

Notice that in Isaiah 66 the New Earth has this event predicted "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

As for "God's laws", it is true what you say. However, my question is how one would go through eternity without breaking one of those laws. If I run a red light, even though I'm not really a felon, there are consequences. If a law is broken in Heaven, . . .what would be the penalty? If no one CAN break a law, does that change who we will be, fundamentally, from what we are now?

Are there any Bible writers that you take as inspired or "true"?

If for example Paul is one - then we have Paul telling us in Romans 6 "By what you are overcome to that you are servant... enslaved" Paul argues that when we sin we present ourselves as the servants of sin. Your argument is that you can not imagine not sinning.

1Cor 10 states clearly "NO temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man and GOD IS FAITHFUL who will not ALLOW you to be tempted beyond that which YOU are able but will with the temptation provide a way of escape".

That which is "available" to born-again saints today will be fully experienced in heaven as those same saints do not have sinful natures "waging war with the law of the mind" Romans 7.

So question for you - is Paul ok? Or do you discount him as well?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, you're going to have to explain what you mean by "compelling data".

What do you see in Job 1 and 2?

God makes a claim.

It is challenged.

Then the experiment is done to PROVE the statement is true.

Free will beings are motived by compelling evidence.

If Adam could have seen "in vivid living color" the murder, child abuse, wife abuse, sickness, disease, wars, famine, flood, stife, human misery caused by his choice to "eat" do you really think he would have been so easily tricked?

Adam was sinless -- he lived in a perfect sin-free disease-free eternal-life supporting paradise. Where was the 'motive' for 'turning it all into a disease ridden tooth-and-claw desert"?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Rick W]

Imagine a place with many others having the nature of God where there's always peace, no arguing, no desire for power or influence over others. Where the sinful nature is non-existent, just as alien as the nature of God is in this world. A place where there is no greed, no envy, no lust, no hate, no wars... the total opposite of what we are so accustomed to. It's the sinless state in heaven and we as individual with the nature of God as we are individual with the nature of sin.
Now that's worth believing in.

 

[Bubba]

Um. . . . . what would "Heavenly Law" be? :-?

Why do people break laws on earth? Why do GOOD people break laws? It isn't that they are evil, directly, . . . but sometimes desire creates a situation where they weigh the balance and take the road of "not so good". It is our human nature to desire, work for, and obtain what we don't have. Is all desire fufilled in Heaven? Then what challenges us?

Hey Orion,
I see that you are making us fundamental-evangelicals think through our beliefs again, which is always good. 1John 3:2-3 reads, "Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears,we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure."
These verses affirm that we will be like Him which implies a nature without sin. The motivation or what "challenges us" is love. 1John 4:7, "Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God."
Peace, Bubba

 

[BobRyan]

Imagine a place with many others having the nature of God where there's always peace, no arguing, no desire for power or influence over others. Where the sinful nature is non-existent, just as alien as the nature of God is in this world. A place where there is no greed, no envy, no lust, no hate, no wars... the total opposite of what we are so accustomed to. It's the sinless state in heaven and we as individual with the nature of God as we are individual with the nature of sin.
Now that's worth believing in.

Amen!

As it turns out -- the Bible is true.

As it turns out - - humanism presented on many sci-fi and evol programs is not.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Orion]

Well, Bubba, if my posts have a positive effect on you, then. . . . you're welcome.

I just constantly go back to "the beginning of the story", though, . . . .and how created angels would come to a place of rejection of their creator, . . . . and this not be a possibility today or when people are living after the "second coming". What will have (or has) changed for the angels? Why wasn't Adam and Eve created with this same "mind of Christ"?

 

[BobRyan]

When God created the Angels there is no death no sin no rebellion. Satan is lifted up by his pride as one of the select "Covering Cherubs" and then aspires to "advance" (truly the first "evolutionist") -- very likely with the evolutionist argument that by his advancement all other Angels take "one step up" as well.

The idea was that "This evolution" was to be "for the good of all" --

Some have suspected that they also had the notion that --Angels don't need no law -- since angels are perfect and by their own nature would do right.

The root of humanism you might say.

Without seeing "war in heaven" without seeing the fall of mankind -- without seeing God having to send his Son to die to save mankind... without seeing the chain of wars famines death and destruction... without seeing just how far demonic selfishness could eat into their own natures like a spiritual cancer -- a lot of what they were doing probably "made sense to them'.

But as I said -- with compelling evidence correct free will decisions are even more "likely" especially if those free will beings have no sinful nature "bent to evil" to start with.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Rick W]

The angels will not inherit the kingdom of God nor are they promised the nature of God, being like Him.

We will be above the angels.

1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

He won't inherit the kingdom and never could. We will be in a position to judge him.
Why do you think Satan hates us so much?

 

[Orion]

Well, . . . . . . hoping you won't find this question stupid, . . . . . . . How do I know Satan "hates me"?

 

[Alabaster]

Well, . . . . . . hoping you won't find this question stupid, . . . . . . . How do I know Satan "hates me"?

Satan hates everything that God loves.