For Dave....

[Gary]

Hi Dave

I hope this helps. Posting it here means you can copy or quote the response.

My Irrefutable proof that Jesus(pbuh) is NOT GOD! Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:50 pm

The test:
If Jesus(pbuh) was G-d would he be ....All knowledgeable?
The answer should be YES! because this is a characteristic of G-d! However, I prove that Jesus(pbuh) is NOT all knowledgeable! and therefore, NOT God!

Wrong assumptions therefore wrong conclusion. Jesus is God the Son; He is both God and man. Serious confession of Jesus must link Jesus' humanity with His deity - the eternal Word become human and then called Jesus - and understand Him asn"mighty God and man in one" ("Savior of the Nations, Come"). In short, the question "Is Jesus God?", if meant to suggest that Jesus is either God or human, i.e. He cannot be both, is downright misleading, given that traditional Christian doctrine (Roman Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant) has affirmed consistently that Jesus Christ is both God and man.
Source: http://www.answering-islam.org/Hahn/incarnate.htm

For we know this because of this:

EXODUS 31:1-5

1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 See, I have called by name Bez'aleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah:
3 and I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
4 to devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass,
5 and in cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of timber, to work in all manner of workmanship.

The above from EXODUS has shown us all the knowledge of G-d and that he could give it to anyone. This is one of the many characteristics of G-d.

Again, wrong assumption and wrong conclusion. God did NOT fill Moses with ALL understand nor ALL wisdom nor ALL knowledge…. Moses was filled with the spirit of God in ALL manner of workmanship. Even this “ALL†is qualified in the rest of the text. “to devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass, and in cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of timber ….†That is obviously not the only workmanship that a man or God can perform!

NOW, I will show all of you that Jesus(pbuh) is NOT G-d and is NOT all knowledgeable and therefore NOT GOD!. This will be simple without fancy words just evidence from the Gospels itself !!!!!!! I will also prove that many who BELIEVE every word of the Gospels are following a tampered and a contradictory source. The Gospels are tampered because of its contradictions unless they follow the Formula:
Islamic Sources > Old Testament > "tampered" Gospels.

Again, wrong assumptions lead to wrong conclusions. You have no evidence that the New Testament has been “tamperedâ€Â…. You only arrive at that conclusion because the Quran falls so far short of the Old and New Testaments textual authenticity. Read more about the textual authenticity of the Qur’an and the Bible here:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Gilchris ... index.html and this section in particular:
(1.13) Tahrif - The Allegations of Corruption

The overwhelming evidence:

Luke 8:42-48

42 for he had one only daughter, about twelve years of age, and she lay a dying.
But as he went the people thronged him.
43 And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any,
44 came behind him, and touched the border of his garment: and immediately her issue of blood stanched.
45 And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
46 And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.
47 And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and how she was healed immediately.
48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.

This evidence above is final and CONCRETE evidence that Jesus(pbuh) is a Prophet ONLY!

Again, you have very little understanding of the Bible and as you are not in the light nor under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, your eyes are still blinded to the truth.

Some may object by saying that if Jesus is divine, and hence all-knowing, why did He say that He did not know who touched Him?

Since sin and death entered the world through a man, both had to be removed by a man. When the divine Word of God became man, He came to please and to obey God as a man. Thus He was both human (because He was born of a woman) and divine (because He is the Word of God.)

Jesus had two natures: One divine and one human. The two natures can be seen in the incident of calming the sea in Luke 8:22-25. The human characteristics can be seen in Him being asleep in the ship. The divine characteristics can be seen in His rebuking of the wind and the waves. The two natures can also be seen in Luke 8:43-48. The human characteristics can be seen in Him asking who touched Him. The divine characteristics can be seen in the power that came from Him.
Read more: http://www.answering-islam.org/Mna/trinity.html

However, I will now show EVERYONE that there are CONTRADICTORY similar passages from two other Gospels. Remember, that the writer of this Gospel also wrote the Book of ACTS. Therefore, now the Book of ACTS is also in question?

The Gospel of Luke and the Book of Acts have the same author because of the name " THEOPHILUS " in the beginning of both the Gospel of Luke and the Book of ACTS!

Now, the contradictory accounts from the other two Gospels:

The Gospel of Mark says:

MARK 5:27-32

27 when she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment.
28 For she said, If I may touch but his clothes, I shall be whole.
29 And straightway the fountain of her blood was dried up; and she felt in her body that she was healed of that plague.
30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that virtue had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?
31 And his disciples said unto him, Thou seest the multitude thronging thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
32 And he looked round about to see her that had done this thing.

This Gospels is in the middle if this contraversy between the other two Gospels. Here it presents Jesus(pbuh) as somewhat knowledgeable.

The Gospel of MATTHEW says:

MATTHEW 9:20-22

20 And, behold, a woman, which was diseased with an issue of blood twelve years, came behind him, and touched the hem of his garment:
21 for she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole.
22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

Now, this Gospel state and expresse that Jesus(pbuh) was all knowledgeable. The Question that bothers me is that the writer of this Gospel already knew what the woman was thinking!!! in verse 21 it states: "She said within herself"

Again, like Muhammad, your very limited knowledge of the Bible and your blindness to spiritual truths is evident.

Now let me sequence the events and you may then see the obvious:

A large crowd followed and pressed around him. (Mark 5:24)
And a woman was there who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years. (Mark 5:25)
She had suffered a great deal under the care of many doctors and had spent all she had, yet instead of getting better she grew worse. (Mark 5:26)
When she heard about Jesus, she came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak, because she thought, “If I just touch his clothes, I will be healed.†(Mark 5:27-28)

The verses above are the same as:

Just then a woman who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years came up behind him and touched the edge of his cloak. (Matthew 9:20)
She said to herself, “If I only touch his cloak, I will be healed.†(Matthew 9:21)

Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering. (Mark 5:29)
At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, “Who touched my clothes?†(Mark 5:30)
“You see the people crowding against you,†his disciples answered, “and yet you can ask, ‘Who touched me?’†(Mark 5:31)
But Jesus kept looking around to see who had done it. (Mark 5:32)
Then the woman, knowing what had happened to her, came and fell at his feet and, trembling with fear, told him the whole truth. (Mark 5:33)

He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering.†(Mark 5:34)

Again, this is the same as:

Jesus turned and saw her. “Take heart, daughter,†he said, “your faith has healed you.†And the woman was healed from that moment. (Matthew 9:22)

If you are still having trouble understanding, let me give it to you again:

(1) Women, subject to bleeding for years, decides that she will try and touch Jesus
(2) She touches him, his power leaves him, he asks who touched him, she comes forward
(3) She is immediately healed
(4) He explains that her faith healed her.

This is evidence that Gospel of Matthew is:

( 1 ) Fabricated and False.

( 2 ) The Gospel of Matthew came much later than the other Gospels or it was compiled much later.

Wrong. All you have shown is that, like Muhammad, you have very little understanding of the Bible.

( 3 ) I may have to present later that Matthew, the tax collector, is an imaginary person or rather conjured up by the writers of the Gospels or Paul or someone later. Matthew is also known as "Levi" in the other Gospels:

MARK 2:14

" And as he passed by, he saw Levi the son of Al'pheus sitting at the receipt of custom, and said unto him, Follow me. And he arose and followed him."

LUKE 5:27-28

27 And after these things he went forth, and saw a publican, named Levi, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he said unto him, Follow me.
28 And he left all, rose up, and followed him.

Wrong again. Like Muhammad, you have very little understanding of the Bible. The answer is very simple. Both are true because Matthew and Levi are the same person. Matthew is the Greek name and Levi was the Hebrew name. As a tax-collector, Matthew worked for the Romans who spoke Greek. He gathered taxes from the Jews who spoke Hebrew.
Source: http://www.carm.org/diff/Matt9_9.htm

Jesus(peace be upon him) is a prophet which has been give a gift from Allah(subhana wa Ta'ala) among the Jewish people:

Quran 2:87

" We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you a messenger with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay! "

I could care less what Muhammad had to say. He was a false prophet.

MICAH 5:2-5

Is a summary of the Islamic evidence above which state that Jesus(pbuh) is prophet and the final Messiah for the JEWS only, however, my opinion is that Prophet Jesus(pbuh) had more than 12 disciples and it should be 15!

The contradictions and the questions surrounding MATTHEW would make this theory possible!

2 But thou, Bethlehem Eph'ratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. ( Connected with RUTH 4:10-11 & DEUTERONOMY 18:1-8 ONLY )
3 Therefore will he give them up, until the time that she which travaileth hath brought forth: then the remnant of his brethren shall return unto the children of Israel.( Connected with DEUTERONOMY 18:1-8 ONLY )
4 And he shall stand and feed in the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God; and they shall abide: for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. ( Connected with Islamic evidence above QURAN 2:87 and other future Islamic prophecies )
5 And this man(Prophet because of the term "man") shall be the peace, when the Assyrian ( interpreted as ROMANS by the Rabbis in the Talmud and the definition of "Assyrian" = "Romans of the East" ) shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal( The Jewish version from a Jewish source state "Princes" rather than "Prinicipal" ) men.

7 + 8 = 15!

All the evidence above proves that Jesus(pbuh) is a Prophet ONLY!

Wrong. All you have shown is that, like Muhammad, you know very little about the Bible and you are blind to spiritual truths. Jesus was NOT only sent for the Jews. Read and learn:
JESUS' MINISTRY - LIMITED, UNIVERSAL OR BOTH?
http://www.answering-islam.org/Who/universal.html
http://www.answering-islam.org/Hahn/gentiles.html

:D :-D :D

 

[Dave...]

Thanks Gary. I appreciate you taking the time to answer this for me.

In case anyone was wondering, i've been witnessing on a secular site. I asked Gary if he could help since he has dealt with witnessing to Muslims before.

God bless

Dave

 

[Gary]

Thanks Gary. I appreciate you taking the time to answer this for me.

In case anyone was wondering, i've been witnessing on a secular site. I asked Gary if he could help since he has dealt with witnessing to Muslims before.

God bless

Dave

No problem Dave.. it was a pleasure!

I also found this to help explain the Micah 5:5 verse....

Micah 5:5

Question: In Micah Chapter 5:5, the text talks about "seven shepherds and eight principal men". My question is: Who are these seven shepherds and eight principal men that Micah is referring to in this passage?

Answer: Let’s read the passage:

This One will be our peace. When the Assyrian invades our land, When he tramples on our citadels, Then we will raise against him Seven shepherds and eight leaders of men.

The context of Micah reveals that God is informing His people (Israel and Judah) that judgment for their sins will come at the hands of the Assyrians. The Assyrians in many portions of the Old Testament represent a symbolic "enemy" of God's people.

I believe that starting in Chapter 4:1 we have the beginning of a Messianic promise, and therefore, what is revealed in chapter four and five must be understand in a spiritual context. Consider the following:

5:5 - "And this One will be our peace" = the "Prince of Peace" (Isaiah9:6) or "Our Peace" (Eph. 2:14)

"When the Assyrian invades our land" = symbolizes the enemies of God's children.

"Then we will raise against him" = those men who God would rise upamongst His people to lead His people in a spiritual sense.

"Seven shepherds and eight leaders of men" = those who God would rise up. Seven is a perfect number, indicating that God will provide all the leadership necessary, "eight" indicates, "all the leadership necessary, and then some."

I believe that this verse teaches that God will provide for the leadership of His people through men He will rise up adequate to meet any challenge that the enemy puts in the way. We certainly find fulfillment of this promise in the New Testament (in the apostles and prophets of the first century).

Source: http://www.scripturessay.com/q301d.html

 

[D46]

It's good to see that Gary/Dave have this kind of patience in dealing with those who have obviously turned from the only one that can save. Those who refute the bible and Christ do so at their own peril and the way I see it, all have the truth available to them but refuse to accept it over another heretical gospel. With those, I have very limited patience and suppose I need to pray about that as my patience is thin in this respect.

 

[Dave...]

D46, you're not the only one who needs to be patient. Sometimes I think I'm getting somewhere with someone, only to have the Gospel completely rejected the next day. It drives me nuts. Another problem I have is that i'm too soft and I get into scripture debates with people that aren't even saved. Sometimes I need to remind myself that we are called to preach a simple message.

I keep trying to remember the patience that Jesus shows me.

 

[D46]

I can't help but wonder how the Apostle Paul must have felt in his travels to have been rejected for the truth he tried to preach and they not only wouldn't have "an ear to hear" but, many times he was run out of town, stoned, beaten, cursed, and all manner of aggravations and sadness must have overwhelmed him continuosly. Guess I need to stop and recall what perils he was under and remember mine pale in comparison.

 

[Gary]

I can't help but wonder how the Apostle Paul must have felt in his travels to have been rejected for the truth he tried to preach and they not only wouldn't have "an ear to hear" but, many times he was run out of town, stoned, beaten, cursed, and all manner of aggravations and sadness must have overwhelmed him continuosly. Guess I need to stop and recall what perils he was under and remember mine pale in comparison.

Good observation D46. I have thought about that often. Paul had several things to rely on; his relationship with the Apostles he met in Jerusalem, the sending church, the Christians in the churches he had already planted and his different travelling companions. Plus his teaching of new leaders like Timothy.

But most important, I see/read of Paul's great love for our Lord Jesus Christ. Even while jailed and chained to a guard, he finds an opportunity to witness!! His prison epistles are wonderful; compassionate and insightful and show how dependent he has become on the Lord and how much he wants to impart what he has learnt with the planted churches and those he has taught to be leaders.

 

[D46]

Yep-Paul was quite a man of God...the kind of guy I want to hang out with in Heaven! :-D No doubt Paul, from a theological standpoint, could reduce us who stive about the scriptures to a bowl of oatmeal in short order. Yet, his experience with Jesus on the road to Damascus got his attention. He never doubted the validity of who Jesus was. Even John the Baptist at a point in time had his doubts, but not Paul. Yet Jesus considered John to be the greatest among men.

Luke 1:44 (KJV) For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

That is, John knew who Mary was carring. And, he proclaimed the one who he was the forerunner for.

John 1:29 (KJV) The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

And yet, when he was about to have his head taken, doubt began to fester in his heart...

Matthew 11:2-3 (KJV) Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples, And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?

What did God think of this man who had doubt in his heart? He knew in advance that John would question the validity of who he said he was...

Matthew 11:11 (KJV) Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

I think many times how thankful we should be for men like Paul who helped start the early church in areas not necessarily receptive to his teachings and the doctrine of Christ. I ponder many times as well as to where we would be without the Jewish hands that penned the words to the Bible that we too, may be grafted into the "natural olive tree" and share in what great salvation offered us because of those that went before us and because of the great goodness our or Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.