For those of you who think we can lose our salvation

[Heidi]

Sorry but it is you who confuses God's work in us with our own work. You are giving credit to our own will for the good work in us instead of the Holy Spirit. That's called the sin of pride. Do you not believe the Holy Spirit is greater than the devil? :o John and Paul say it is. So why do you disagree with them?

And if you don't disagree with them, then why do you not have faith that; "He who began a good work in you will carry it onto completion?" :o

And that is precisely why Jesus said; "No one can snatch them out of my hand." No one. Not us, not the devil, no one. It couldn't be any clearer.

When the first people were born again in biblical times, they had no NT to read. I'm sure their first reactions were; "now what do we do?" what's true and what's false?'' And that's what God brought Paul into the world for. Paul heard directly from our risen Lord what is true and what is false and it was his job to pass it along to us.

Therefore, the NT was written to show us the direction in which God wants us to go. And it reminds us of what Jesus did for us which increases our faith. It also addresses those who have not received the Holy Spirit and simply, as Jesus said; "honor me with their lips but their hearts are far from me." Those people have not received the Holy Spirit and therefore were never saved to begin with. Therefore, they cannot lose something they never had in the first place. Once we are born again of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit can never leave us s jesus tells us. And the Holy Spirit inside of us is heaven. If you had received the Holy Spirit, you would know that. You would have become a new creation in Christ. "The old is gone and the new has come."

So I prefer to believe Jesus when he said that no one can snatch his true believers out of his hand. He said; "My sheep listen to my voice....They never listen to strangers." Therefore those who do not listen to Christ's voice cannot be Christ's true sheep, now can they? ;-)

 

[Heidi]

Also, Mutzrein, you said you agreed that once we receive the Holy Spirit, we have passed from death to life. And Jesus told us he will send us the Holy Spirit to be with us forever and never abandon us. So since we possess life through the Holy Spirit, then we can never lose our salvation. It is impossible.

But those who think we can think that works save. That is what the Jews still think. That also contradicts the bible all over the place. It contradicts Romans 9, Ephesians 2:8-9, Galatians chater 2 and most of Romans. Works come from the Holy Spirit which is why they ar called the "fruits of the Spirit", not the fruits of ourselves. It is the Spirit in us that compels us to do good works. And since John tells us that the one who is in us is greater than the one in the world, then it is simply a fact that "He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion" That is not a lie. All you need is the faith to believe that. So I'll pray for God to increase your faith.

 

[thessalonian]

Greetings, Thessa -

Greetings

I know Heidi has been kind of a prickly Protestant at times, who leaves no doubt about her stance toward Catholicism. But I have to lean toward her point of view on this one.

I know Heidi means well. It is the blatant distortion of Catholic teaching that bothers me about her.

Think about it: If I were to analyze my thoughts and actions every five minutes or so, I bet there would be at least one sin in each of those five minute durations. The same probably applies to you, too. If you fall out of grace every time you are guilty of sin, disbelief, unfaithfulnes, etc, etc, and then enter back into grace again when you repent, we would have to imagine God writing down your name in the Book of Life, erasing your name, and then writing your name again every few minutes. In fact, He'd be busier than Bob Cratchet hunched over his ledgers!

That's not even close to the reality of Catholic thought on the matter. We do not believe that all sins separate us from the friendship of God. We do not believe that stealing a cookie is the same as robbing a bank. I would hope that this is logical. All need forgiveness but the robbing of the bank needs forgivenss on a different level for it has severed us from Christ. I don't know how you can get around the phrases "severed from Christ" or "fallen from grace". They either mean what they say or they don't. So it seems you have sided with Heidi on a false premise of what Catholicism thinks.

If your condition oscillates every few minutes between saved and damned, then whether you get into heaven or not depends entirely upon whether you happened to die in one of those fleeting saved periods. "Oh, sorry, old boy, I see here you had a randy thought, and then a heart attack before you had the chance to repent of it. Tough luck, that!"

I hope you can understand this a bit beter.

I say, if you're saved, then you're saved and there is nothing further to worry about in the saved department. If you ever discover your condition to be unsaved, then you must not have gotten saved in the first place.

Well God says you can be "severed from Christ". Paul tells the Galatians you have "fallen from grace". Can't fall from something you were never in. It's nonsense to speak that way. In Luke 12 there is the faithful servant who when his master comes finds him doing well and rewards him. But then it runs the same senario again with THAT SERVANT. In this case the Master delays and the servant gets drunk and beats the other servants. In this case he is "treated as an unbeliever". No OSAS here at all. It doesn't hold to proper Bible scrutiny.

This way is much less stressful on the believer, and much easier on the Divine Accounting Department.

.

Isn't it nice how we like to have our ears stroked. Paul tells us to "work out your salvation in fear and trembling". Good words to heed that are easily forgotten in the OSAS system I belived. Do not presume upon God's mercy while ignoring his justice. He is merciful but he is also just for those who do not obey. Sin has consequence.

 

[Heidi]

Greetings, Thessa -

Greetings

[quote:322c7]I know Heidi has been kind of a prickly Protestant at times, who leaves no doubt about her stance toward Catholicism. But I have to lean toward her point of view on this one.

I know Heidi means well. It is the blatant distortion of Catholic teaching that bothers me about her.

Think about it: If I were to analyze my thoughts and actions every five minutes or so, I bet there would be at least one sin in each of those five minute durations. The same probably applies to you, too. If you fall out of grace every time you are guilty of sin, disbelief, unfaithfulnes, etc, etc, and then enter back into grace again when you repent, we would have to imagine God writing down your name in the Book of Life, erasing your name, and then writing your name again every few minutes. In fact, He'd be busier than Bob Cratchet hunched over his ledgers!

That's not even close to the reality of Catholic thought on the matter. We do not believe that all sins separate us from the friendship of God. We do not believe that stealing a cookie is the same as robbing a bank. I would hope that this is logical. All need forgiveness but the robbing of the bank needs forgivenss on a different level for it has severed us from Christ. I don't know how you can get around the phrases "severed from Christ" or "fallen from grace". They either mean what they say or they don't. So it seems you have sided with Heidi on a false premise of what Catholicism thinks.

If your condition oscillates every few minutes between saved and damned, then whether you get into heaven or not depends entirely upon whether you happened to die in one of those fleeting saved periods. "Oh, sorry, old boy, I see here you had a randy thought, and then a heart attack before you had the chance to repent of it. Tough luck, that!"

I hope you can understand this a bit beter.

I say, if you're saved, then you're saved and there is nothing further to worry about in the saved department. If you ever discover your condition to be unsaved, then you must not have gotten saved in the first place.

Well God says you can be "severed from Christ". Paul tells the Galatians you have "fallen from grace". Can't fall from something you were never in. It's nonsense to speak that way. In Luke 12 there is the faithful servant who when his master comes finds him doing well and rewards him. But then it runs the same senario again with THAT SERVANT. In this case the Master delays and the servant gets drunk and beats the other servants. In this case he is "treated as an unbeliever". No OSAS here at all. It doesn't hold to proper Bible scrutiny.

This way is much less stressful on the believer, and much easier on the Divine Accounting Department.

.

Isn't it nice how we like to have our ears stroked. Paul tells us to "work out your salvation in fear and trembling". Good words to heed that are easily forgotten in the OSAS system I belived. Do not presume upon God's mercy while ignoring his justice. He is merciful but he is also just for those who do not obey. Sin has consequence.[/quote:322c7]

Distortion? :o Does the catholic church not teach the Mary was sinless and a virgin all her life? What have I distorted there? Please provide scriptures to verify she was sinless and a virgin all her life. Otherwise you are lying about me.

Does the catholic church render unto Caesar what's Caesar's and render unto God what is God's? :o Then why are they involved in politics?

Does the catholic church agree with jesus not to call anyone on earth 'father"?

Does the catholic church agree not to erect statues of people?

Does the catholic church not think its doctrine is infallible? Where does the bible say that unscriptural beliefs are infallible? And since you cannot provide scripture that says Mary was sinless or a virgin all her life, then those beliefs are unscriptural.

So you are lying about me when you say I distort Catholicism when you cannot provide scripture references for the above catholic practices. And anyone who can outright lie like you do, with no conscience about it, Thessalonian, cannot be trusted. Therefore there is no point in throwing pearls where they'll be trambled on. And pearls is scripture, every word of which, I believe is true. And you have shown that you don't. You follow the pope and I follow Christ. They're not one in the same.

 

[thessalonian]

They treat Mary the exact same way they treat God.
They say that Mary heals, not Christ.
They treat God with no more respect than they treat Mary.
The clergy in non-catholic churches don't walk around in priestly robes for men to see that they're "holy".

These are your words Heidi and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM IS A LIE! Every single one of them breeds prejudice of Protestants toward Catholics. Every single one of them is pure slanderous ingorance.

That's just for starters. I could easily post 20 more. The ends justify the means for you. I disagree with Catholicism so I will distort it's teachings to suite my agenda. I don't care what it teaches I am going to say what I think it teaches.


Why can't you stay on topic even in your own thread. :-?

 

[Duder]

.

I know Heidi means well. It is the blatant distortion of Catholic teaching that bothers me about her.

Hello, Thessa -

Yes, I think she is a sincere and well-meaning follower of Jesus, if perhaps just a bit too eager to demonstrate her perspective right by attacking the perspectives of others. It's the old game of "black and white", and we all do it to some degree.

That's not even close to the reality of Catholic thought on the matter. We do not believe that all sins separate us from the friendship of God. We do not believe that stealing a cookie is the same as robbing a bank. I would hope that this is logical. All need forgiveness but the robbing of the bank needs forgivenss on a different level for it has severed us from Christ. I don't know how you can get around the phrases "severed from Christ" or "fallen from grace". They either mean what they say or they don't. So it seems you have sided with Heidi on a false premise of what Catholicism thinks.

Thank you for this well-considered post.

You touch upon something that Catholics emphasize that gives me a little trouble. That is the distinction between sins that will get you thrown into hell as opposed to the lesser sins that just relegate you for a while to purgatory.

As an example, you discussed the difference between the theft of cookies as opposed to the theft of large sums of money. The latter is a mortal sin, while the former is not. But I am sure that you can see how these two sins do not differ in kind, but merely in degree. Is there a certain threshold larceny value that, if you cross it, you become separated from Christ? What is the dollar amount? Is it adjusted periodically for inflation?

Okay, that was slightly facetious. But you see my point. How does one know, in terms of heavenly accounting, when the degree of the sin causes separation? Is this the sort of information that the priest, but not the garden variety believer, is privy to?

.

 

[thessalonian]

You touch upon something that Catholics emphasize that gives me a little trouble. That is the distinction between sins that will get you thrown into hell as opposed to the lesser sins that just relegate you for a while to purgatory.

Well actually venial sins don't neccessarily make one end up in purgatory. Nor do mortal sins for that matter. We can be sanctified before purgatory. Purgatory is not a given for everyone. God gives us all the grace to go straight to the pearlys.

As an example, you discussed the difference between the theft of cookies as opposed to the theft of large sums of money. The latter is a mortal sin, while the former is not. But I am sure that you can see how these two sins do not differ in kind, but merely in degree.

Oh certainly it is a matter of degree. But it is more than just this. There is a degree in which our souls are damaged. There is a degree in which we hurt those around us. A kid who's dad stold a cookie at the local food store is going to be far less affected than a kid whose dad robs USBank and shoots the clerk. Both may repent. The cookie stealer might even forget about repenting. But his heart is not changed like the bank robber is. His family is not changed. He has not destroyed lives and left scared children. IF HE REPENTS he needs much more sanctification of his sin than the cookie stealer. There is no question in my mind that this is true, having observed some families where the father has ended up in jail for crimes. I don't know of any cookie stealers who have done such damage to their family. This damage is a consequence of since and a clear indication the two are not equal and God demands a greater price for the latter sin. Surely you believe in Sanctification.

Is there a certain threshold larceny value that, if you cross it, you become separated from Christ? What is the dollar amount? Is it adjusted periodically for inflation?

Okay, that was slightly facetious. But you see my point. How does one know, in terms of heavenly accounting, when the degree of the sin causes separation? Is this the sort of information that the priest, but not the garden variety believer, is privy to?

This is not the way to look at it. We are to be sorrowful for all sin and confess serious sin. A preist is helpful in determining what is a serious sin. But the fact is that all sin does damage to our relationship with God and we strive to root all sin out, focusing on the most serious of them. The Eucharist also gives us great grace and assistance in this. There are also guides called examinations of conscience. I don't find it to be a big problem.

 

[mutzrein]

Also, Mutzrein, you said you agreed that once we receive the Holy Spirit, we have passed from death to life. And Jesus told us he will send us the Holy Spirit to be with us forever and never abandon us. So since we possess life through the Holy Spirit, then we can never lose our salvation. It is impossible.

But those who think we can think that works save. That is what the Jews still think. That also contradicts the bible all over the place. It contradicts Romans 9, Ephesians 2:8-9, Galatians chater 2 and most of Romans. Works come from the Holy Spirit which is why they ar called the "fruits of the Spirit", not the fruits of ourselves. It is the Spirit in us that compels us to do good works. And since John tells us that the one who is in us is greater than the one in the world, then it is simply a fact that "He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion" That is not a lie. All you need is the faith to believe that. So I'll pray for God to increase your faith.

Heidi, you don't have to be condescending to me. I understand the purpose of the Holy Spirit. It is to give everlasting life. I have the Holy Spirit. I understand what fruit of the Spirit is. I am in the vine. I am in Christ and he is in me. And I understand what faith is. I have faith and God has demonstrated it powerfully within my life. And I also know without any shadow of a doubt that there are those who after starting with the Spirit are trying to achieve their goal by human effort. This is not (just) applied to the Jews, but to those who have been born again and Paul states it categorically. If you wish to deny this or perhaps (giving you the benefit of the doubt) you don’t understand what he is saying then you need to look again. It is possible for us not to remain in faith. As Paul says, “Who has bewitched you . . . â€Â

Now Heidi it seems to me that rather than answer the questions I have put to you, you have done exactly as I stated elsewhere and have decided that the scriptures you use to support your beliefs, trumps all others. Well that is fine - at least you are consistent in ignoring the greater weight of scripture when it suits you.

 

[reznwerks]

For those of you who think you can lose your salvation, all one has to do is tape record all the thoughts that each of us has in any given day. Now all of us are capable of lying about our envy, greed, lust, sloth, wrath, gluttony, and pride, but a tape recorder doesn't lie. But if we confess those sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us. Then all of the above sins will be replaced with love and forgiveness. And that's how Jesus takes our sins away; by cleaning the inside of the cup so the outside will become clean as well.

So forget about trying to change the outside through acts for men to see. Only God knows our hearts and we can fool people but not God. Just make sure Jesus has washed your insides and your outside will become clean as well. "For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks." And since jesus said he would never abandon us, he is always there to offer forgivess for us.

What happens when illness or injury affects the brain? What about a brain that may be born defective? What happens when ones brain is cured?The problem may not even be known.Thoughts change based on certain chemicals in the brain. The brain will change the nature of thoughts either by chemicals or induced electrical pulses. Doctors know this and even use this to treat and even experiment. However the same processes occur naturally either exhibiting positive or negative thought patterns. The thoughts change so what about the salvation. The heart does not think the brain does. (biblical scientific innaccuracy) So how does God determine if a person should have salation if the brain is subject to change based on a whole bunch of uncontrolled stimuli.

But God is much bigger than that. He already has a purpose for those he has called according to his purpose.
Who makes the determination if one is called? The one called? What if he is wrong based on the chemical composition in the brain? No one can witness anothers calling. So we really can't rule out error or imagination and even wishful thinking. We still haven't gotten into the subject of what would happen if the chemical composition in the brain changed and caused this person to act diametrically opposite of the old self?


Human beings aren't just brains and organs.
Unless you can show evidence of something else that is all we are.

We have a soul and a purpose that God uses for his glory.
You think you have a soul , you want to believe you have a soul but so far no evidence exists that a soul exists.

All you have to do is be willing to open up your mind and heart to God and ask Him into your life.
I can have all the imaginary friends I want. Unfortunately until one of them actually helps me out I'm inclined to leave them at home.

But first you have to know you are fallible and that you sin and want Jesus to take your sins away. Then you will experience the glories of God's love forever.
Well yes and no on that one. Yes i am fallable and not perfect but I have no sin so I don't need Jesus to take away something that isn't there. Life is wonderful when you realize that you are not a sinner and you are not in danger of eternal judgement. That is where the real peace is and if I am wrong I am still going to heaven because the creator of the universe doesn't reward gullibility.

 

[Heidi]

For those of you who think you can lose your salvation, all one has to do is tape record all the thoughts that each of us has in any given day. Now all of us are capable of lying about our envy, greed, lust, sloth, wrath, gluttony, and pride, but a tape recorder doesn't lie. But if we confess those sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us. Then all of the above sins will be replaced with love and forgiveness. And that's how Jesus takes our sins away; by cleaning the inside of the cup so the outside will become clean as well.

So forget about trying to change the outside through acts for men to see. Only God knows our hearts and we can fool people but not God. Just make sure Jesus has washed your insides and your outside will become clean as well. "For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks." And since jesus said he would never abandon us, he is always there to offer forgivess for us.

What happens when illness or injury affects the brain? What about a brain that may be born defective? What happens when ones brain is cured?The problem may not even be known.Thoughts change based on certain chemicals in the brain. The brain will change the nature of thoughts either by chemicals or induced electrical pulses. Doctors know this and even use this to treat and even experiment. However the same processes occur naturally either exhibiting positive or negative thought patterns. The thoughts change so what about the salvation. The heart does not think the brain does. (biblical scientific innaccuracy) So how does God determine if a person should have salation if the brain is subject to change based on a whole bunch of uncontrolled stimuli.

But God is much bigger than that. He already has a purpose for those he has called according to his purpose.
Who makes the determination if one is called? The one called? What if he is wrong based on the chemical composition in the brain? No one can witness anothers calling. So we really can't rule out error or imagination and even wishful thinking. We still haven't gotten into the subject of what would happen if the chemical composition in the brain changed and caused this person to act diametrically opposite of the old self?


Human beings aren't just brains and organs.
Unless you can show evidence of something else that is all we are.

We have a soul and a purpose that God uses for his glory.
You think you have a soul , you want to believe you have a soul but so far no evidence exists that a soul exists.

All you have to do is be willing to open up your mind and heart to God and ask Him into your life.
I can have all the imaginary friends I want. Unfortunately until one of them actually helps me out I'm inclined to leave them at home.

But first you have to know you are fallible and that you sin and want Jesus to take your sins away. Then you will experience the glories of God's love forever.
Well yes and no on that one. Yes i am fallable and not perfect but I have no sin so I don't need Jesus to take away something that isn't there. Life is wonderful when you realize that you are not a sinner and you are not in danger of eternal judgement. That is where the real peace is and if I am wrong I am still going to heaven because the creator of the universe doesn't reward gullibility.

When you are born again of the Holy Spirit, you will know it. One cannot fail to understand the point at which he passes from death into life. It is a knowledge that surpasses all human understanding. The Holy Spirit is the "Spirit of Truth" so it cannot lead us into delusions.

And by the way, all psychiatrists know is what the brain looks like when a person is depressed, psychotic, etc. But they can't say whether or not that's the cause. They give patients pills because it's easier. But the Spirit of truth absolutely can alter chemistry because it is an energy greater than man.

Also, if you ever receive the Holy Spirit, he will be backed up by the words in the bible. So he won't be an individual hallucination. Jesus said; "If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid. But there is one who testifies in my favor." And the miracles that Christ performed and the change in a person's life is his testimony to the Holy Spirit.

 

[mutzrein]

But God is much bigger than that. He already has a purpose for those he has called according to his purpose. Human beings aren't just brains and organs. We have a soul and a purpose that God uses for his glory. All you have to do is be willing to open up your mind and heart to God and ask Him into your life. But first you have to know you are fallible and that you sin and want Jesus to take your sins away. Then you will experience the glories of God's love forever.

Heidi - You are contradicting yourself. On the one hand you say it is God who calls. And on the other you tell someone who accepts he is not called that he has to be willing to ask God into his life.

 

[reznwerks]

For those of you who think you can lose your salvation, all one has to do is tape record all the thoughts that each of us has in any given day. Now all of us are capable of lying about our envy, greed, lust, sloth, wrath, gluttony, and pride, but a tape recorder doesn't lie. But if we confess those sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us. Then all of the above sins will be replaced with love and forgiveness. And that's how Jesus takes our sins away; by cleaning the inside of the cup so the outside will become clean as well.

So forget about trying to change the outside through acts for men to see. Only God knows our hearts and we can fool people but not God. Just make sure Jesus has washed your insides and your outside will become clean as well. "For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks." And since jesus said he would never abandon us, he is always there to offer forgivess for us.

What happens when illness or injury affects the brain? What about a brain that may be born defective? What happens when ones brain is cured?The problem may not even be known.Thoughts change based on certain chemicals in the brain. The brain will change the nature of thoughts either by chemicals or induced electrical pulses. Doctors know this and even use this to treat and even experiment. However the same processes occur naturally either exhibiting positive or negative thought patterns. The thoughts change so what about the salvation. The heart does not think the brain does. (biblical scientific innaccuracy) So how does God determine if a person should have salation if the brain is subject to change based on a whole bunch of uncontrolled stimuli.

But God is much bigger than that. He already has a purpose for those he has called according to his purpose.
Who makes the determination if one is called? The one called? What if he is wrong based on the chemical composition in the brain? No one can witness anothers calling. So we really can't rule out error or imagination and even wishful thinking. We still haven't gotten into the subject of what would happen if the chemical composition in the brain changed and caused this person to act diametrically opposite of the old self?


Human beings aren't just brains and organs.
Unless you can show evidence of something else that is all we are.

We have a soul and a purpose that God uses for his glory.
You think you have a soul , you want to believe you have a soul but so far no evidence exists that a soul exists.

All you have to do is be willing to open up your mind and heart to God and ask Him into your life.
I can have all the imaginary friends I want. Unfortunately until one of them actually helps me out I'm inclined to leave them at home.

But first you have to know you are fallible and that you sin and want Jesus to take your sins away. Then you will experience the glories of God's love forever.
Well yes and no on that one. Yes i am fallable and not perfect but I have no sin so I don't need Jesus to take away something that isn't there. Life is wonderful when you realize that you are not a sinner and you are not in danger of eternal judgement. That is where the real peace is and if I am wrong I am still going to heaven because the creator of the universe doesn't reward gullibility.

When you are born again of the Holy Spirit, you will know it. One cannot fail to understand the point at which he passes from death into life. It is a knowledge that surpasses all human understanding. The Holy Spirit is the "Spirit of Truth" so it cannot lead us into delusions.
Again all we have is the claim of the person making the claim. I hope I don't have to repost all that about the chemical composition of the brain. Science has already artificially stimulated certain parts of the brain to cause the subject to have spiritual reactions. I have posted the link several times to this fact. You still haven't answered the problem when the composition changes and the person acts differently. You use the term born again. In the past several years there have been quite a few "born agains" that have committed terrible atrocities. Does God know their "heart" here as well? Are they still entitled to salvation depite the deeds?

And by the way, all psychiatrists know is what the brain looks like when a person is depressed, psychotic, etc. But they can't say whether or not that's the cause. They give patients pills because it's easier. But the Spirit of truth absolutely can alter chemistry because it is an energy greater than man.
Sorry but you are wrong again. Psyciatrists already know what chemicals are in imbalance and that is how they know what medications to use. They don't give pills because it's easier they give them because they work. Truth is self evident and not a spirit and does not alter the chemistry of the brain. When you can show some evidence for your claim I would like to read it.

Also, if you ever receive the Holy Spirit, he will be backed up by the words in the bible.
Again how do you explain those that were "born of the holy spirit" and committed atrocities.

So he won't be an individual hallucination. Jesus said; "If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid. But there is one who testifies in my favor."
That is a real interesting point. I am surprised you brougt that up. It doesn't help your cause.

And the miracles that Christ performed and the change in a person's life is his testimony to the Holy Spirit.

The miracles can't be verified and they are not that great. There have been other deities doing the same thing before Jesus. Raising the dead was going on in the bible for a long time before Jesus. Cursing a fig tree for not bearing fruit when it wasn't supposed to? A bigger miracle would be to make the tree bear fruit out of season. Now thats a miracle.

 

[Heidi]

[quote="Heidi":2e664]For those of you who think you can lose your salvation, all one has to do is tape record all the thoughts that each of us has in any given day. Now all of us are capable of lying about our envy, greed, lust, sloth, wrath, gluttony, and pride, but a tape recorder doesn't lie. But if we confess those sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us. Then all of the above sins will be replaced with love and forgiveness. And that's how Jesus takes our sins away; by cleaning the inside of the cup so the outside will become clean as well.

So forget about trying to change the outside through acts for men to see. Only God knows our hearts and we can fool people but not God. Just make sure Jesus has washed your insides and your outside will become clean as well. "For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks." And since jesus said he would never abandon us, he is always there to offer forgivess for us.

What happens when illness or injury affects the brain? What about a brain that may be born defective? What happens when ones brain is cured?The problem may not even be known.Thoughts change based on certain chemicals in the brain. The brain will change the nature of thoughts either by chemicals or induced electrical pulses. Doctors know this and even use this to treat and even experiment. However the same processes occur naturally either exhibiting positive or negative thought patterns. The thoughts change so what about the salvation. The heart does not think the brain does. (biblical scientific innaccuracy) So how does God determine if a person should have salation if the brain is subject to change based on a whole bunch of uncontrolled stimuli.

But God is much bigger than that. He already has a purpose for those he has called according to his purpose.
Who makes the determination if one is called? The one called? What if he is wrong based on the chemical composition in the brain? No one can witness anothers calling. So we really can't rule out error or imagination and even wishful thinking. We still haven't gotten into the subject of what would happen if the chemical composition in the brain changed and caused this person to act diametrically opposite of the old self?


Human beings aren't just brains and organs.
Unless you can show evidence of something else that is all we are.

We have a soul and a purpose that God uses for his glory.
You think you have a soul , you want to believe you have a soul but so far no evidence exists that a soul exists.

All you have to do is be willing to open up your mind and heart to God and ask Him into your life.
I can have all the imaginary friends I want. Unfortunately until one of them actually helps me out I'm inclined to leave them at home.

But first you have to know you are fallible and that you sin and want Jesus to take your sins away. Then you will experience the glories of God's love forever.
Well yes and no on that one. Yes i am fallable and not perfect but I have no sin so I don't need Jesus to take away something that isn't there. Life is wonderful when you realize that you are not a sinner and you are not in danger of eternal judgement. That is where the real peace is and if I am wrong I am still going to heaven because the creator of the universe doesn't reward gullibility.

When you are born again of the Holy Spirit, you will know it. One cannot fail to understand the point at which he passes from death into life. It is a knowledge that surpasses all human understanding. The Holy Spirit is the "Spirit of Truth" so it cannot lead us into delusions.
Again all we have is the claim of the person making the claim. I hope I don't have to repost all that about the chemical composition of the brain. Science has already artificially stimulated certain parts of the brain to cause the subject to have spiritual reactions. I have posted the link several times to this fact. You still haven't answered the problem when the composition changes and the person acts differently. You use the term born again. In the past several years there have been quite a few "born agains" that have committed terrible atrocities. Does God know their "heart" here as well? Are they still entitled to salvation depite the deeds?

And by the way, all psychiatrists know is what the brain looks like when a person is depressed, psychotic, etc. But they can't say whether or not that's the cause. They give patients pills because it's easier. But the Spirit of truth absolutely can alter chemistry because it is an energy greater than man.
Sorry but you are wrong again. Psyciatrists already know what chemicals are in imbalance and that is how they know what medications to use. They don't give pills because it's easier they give them because they work. Truth is self evident and not a spirit and does not alter the chemistry of the brain. When you can show some evidence for your claim I would like to read it.

Also, if you ever receive the Holy Spirit, he will be backed up by the words in the bible.
Again how do you explain those that were "born of the holy spirit" and committed atrocities.

So he won't be an individual hallucination. Jesus said; "If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid. But there is one who testifies in my favor."
That is a real interesting point. I am surprised you brougt that up. It doesn't help your cause.

And the miracles that Christ performed and the change in a person's life is his testimony to the Holy Spirit.

The miracles can't be verified and they are not that great. There have been other deities doing the same thing before Jesus. Raising the dead was going on in the bible for a long time before Jesus. Cursing a fig tree for not bearing fruit when it wasn't supposed to? A bigger miracle would be to make the tree bear fruit out of season. Now thats a miracle.

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You're simply proving Christ's words right when he said of the Holy Spirit, "world will not accept him because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know for he will be with you and in you."

So why wouldn't God be miraculous? :o Why do you look for God in the human rhealm? That's like looking for a wife in a men's club and then claiming there are no women out there. Sorry, but you will never find God because you are looking in the wrong place for him. ;-)

Not that great? :o So when was the last time you walked on water, and raised the dead? Besides not being grateful that Jesus died for you, you are not qualified to judge God's Word until you first understand it. :wink:

But, as Jesus said; you will not be able to believe unless you receive the Holy Spirit. So you are proving him right once again. ;-)