Foreknowledge and Time

[Whatever]

1Peter 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

I've been thinking of this. People will use this verse to say that God elects people based on His foreknowledge. And by this, all that I have heard, say that since God is outside of time He is capable of looking ahead into time and see who will accept Christ and that is what Peter means by foreknowledge.

This seems to have implications of how they view what time itself is.

I just brushed up on Open Theism where some say that God cannot look forward into time because it doesn't exist till it happens. That's what they mean by Open Theism - that the future is open. God might have a good idea of what is going to happen but that is it.
I don't hold to it by the way.

I believe the Calvinist view is that God exhaustively knows the future because He has foreordained all that comes to pass. He doesn't have to look into the future to find out what is going to happen, He has already ordained it.
I'm not sure what this means for time itself. I'm suspicious that all there is the now. The past is gone and the future just comes as it happens. So no time traveling to the past.

 

[electedbyHim]

1Peter 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

I've been thinking of this. People will use this verse to say that God elects people based on His foreknowledge. And by this, all that I have heard, say that since God is outside of time He is capable of looking ahead into time and see who will accept Christ and that is what Peter means by foreknowledge.

This seems to have implications of how they view what time itself is.

I just brushed up on Open Theism where some say that God cannot look forward into time because it doesn't exist till it happens. That's what they mean by Open Theism - that the future is open. God might have a good idea of what is going to happen but that is it.
I don't hold to it by the way.

I believe the Calvinist view is that God exhaustively knows the future because He has foreordained all that comes to pass. He doesn't have to look into the future to find out what is going to happen, He has already ordained it.
I'm not sure what this means for time itself. I'm suspicious that all there is the now. The past is gone and the future just comes as it happens. So no time traveling to the past.

I believe the Calvinist view is that God exhaustively knows the future because He has foreordained all that comes to pass. He doesn't have to look into the future to find out what is going to happen, He has already ordained it.
I'm not sure what this means for time itself. I'm suspicious that all there is the now. The past is gone and the future just comes as it happens. So no time traveling to the past.

This is what the Bible teaches.

 

[tdidymas]

1Peter 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

I've been thinking of this. People will use this verse to say that God elects people based on His foreknowledge. And by this, all that I have heard, say that since God is outside of time He is capable of looking ahead into time and see who will accept Christ and that is what Peter means by foreknowledge.

This seems to have implications of how they view what time itself is.

I just brushed up on Open Theism where some say that God cannot look forward into time because it doesn't exist till it happens. That's what they mean by Open Theism - that the future is open. God might have a good idea of what is going to happen but that is it.
I don't hold to it by the way.

I believe the Calvinist view is that God exhaustively knows the future because He has foreordained all that comes to pass. He doesn't have to look into the future to find out what is going to happen, He has already ordained it.
I'm not sure what this means for time itself. I'm suspicious that all there is the now. The past is gone and the future just comes as it happens. So no time traveling to the past.

Time always moves forward, no matter where you are or what you're doing. In the formula for general relativity time can vary, but there is no such thing as negative time. All the sci-fi movies imagining time travel is pure fiction. Even in heaven time moves forward. Consider that if there is something that happens, it is happening in time. Therefore even God operates in time. It might be some different time frame or not like time as we know it. But it is time nonetheless. For God to have planned everything "before the foundation of the world" tells us that there was time before creation.

Now, God says He "knows the end from the beginning." Therefore, Open Theism is unbiblical, since they think that God guesses the future, rather than knows it. Open Theism also assumes that God doesn't know people, and claims that He doesn't know what someone will do until they do it. Nonsense! "All things are open and laid bare to Him whom we must give account." So God knows us better than we know ourselves. Whenever He puts us in a situation that tests our faith, it is for our benefit, not His. Our faith is tested so that we will know where we stand.

So then, when the Bible says "according to His foreknowledge," it is much more than mere cognitive understanding. God foreordains the future, so says the Bible. "All my days were ordained, even before there was one of them" - Ps. 136; "God causes all things to work together for our good..." - Rom. 8:28. The term "knowledge" in the Bible, both the OT and NT has various meanings/nuances, depending on the context. In some cases, it means having sex. In some cases, it means cognitive understanding, and in some cases it means determination.

In Rom. 8:29 "For whom He foreknew" is more than what we think of as knowing. It doesn't mean "foresaw". Jesus will say to some "I never knew you" - not meaning that He was unaware of them, but rather that He chose to not know them, He chose to not love them as He would love sons and daughters. So since God foreordains the future, He determines who He choses to know, love, elect, predestine, and save. Therefore "foreknew" means "foreordained" and "foreloved."

Finally, consider this: if God elects people based on their future choices, then election, and therefore grace, is merited by a person's future choices. This is contrary to the apostle Paul's teaching that grace and justification is free. It means that even our faith is the gift of God. He is the one to be credited with our salvation, not us. There is no boasting of "I chose rightly" before God.

Consider that if my faith originated from me (and not from God), I have something to boast about. I could say in the day of judgment "I deserve heaven because I believe." But if my faith is the gift of God, I can't boast of anything. I can only say "thank You, God, for choosing me!" Isn't this the essence of what Paul means in Eph. 2:8-10?

 

[hawkman]

Therefore even God operates in time.

I would think God does operate in our earthly time . Time is for our benefit or is it ? When you think about it there is only day time and night time and everything is turning to dust .

Those that say God is outside our time tell me why He would need to be outside our time .

It might be some different time frame or not like time as we know it. But it is time nonetheless.

You seem to be all in on God being restrained by time , not sure what kind of time though but you say it is time .

For God to have planned everything "before the foundation of the world" tells us that there was time before creation.

God was before creation . What would God need time for ? Measured how exactly ?

 

[Marilyn C]

His Omnipresence – “The Beginning & the End.”

Christ commenced & will conclude all time periods. He conceived the duration of the ages & will yet crown & consummate the ages to come. Everything is under His control. And no event came before the exercise of His will & none will come after His counsel. (1 Cor. 15: 28)

In Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; therefore outside of Christ there is no wider, broader, deeper, higher, greater or vaster measure or authority known. (Col. 2: 9 & 10)

 

[Whatever]

Those that say God is outside our time tell me why He would need to be outside our time .

They would use verses like:
2Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began

Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,

Then use scientific terms like "our space, time, continuum."
In physics, spacetime, also called the space-time continuum, is a mathematical model that fuses the three dimensions of space and the one dimension of time into a single four-dimensional continuum.

I would even have to say that if God created our universe of time and space, He must in some way be outside of it. We call it the Creator - creation distinction.

 

[tdidymas]

I would think God does operate in our earthly time . Time is for our benefit or is it ? When you think about it there is only day time and night time and everything is turning to dust .

Those that say God is outside our time tell me why He would need to be outside our time .


You seem to be all in on God being restrained by time , not sure what kind of time though but you say it is time .

God was before creation . What would God need time for ? Measured how exactly ?

I claim that time is an attribute of God and part of His eternal nature. The fact that God was planning history before it came to pass shows that He operates in time. The fact that God operates shows that He operates in time both before and after the origin of creation. The fact that Jesus said He had glory with the Father "before the world was" shows that God operates in time.

You seem to think that time is a "restraint" to God, but how is it a restraint? Do you think that He can fix the past by going backward in time and do something to change what has already happened? Is this what you mean by the idea that time would restrain Him from doing that? You need to explain exactly what you mean by "God being restrained by time."

Heavenly time may be different than Earthly time, we just don't know. We do know that time in creation varies. At the speed of light, time progresses much slower than a relatively fixed position (such as on the Earth's surface). So we know that time in the universe is a variable. Gravity also affects the variability of time. But we don't know about time in the spiritual realm, since God has not bothered to tell us anything about it.

Time on Earth has a measured value, but that measurement doesn't really matter in relation to God. Since God is patient with us (2 Pet. 3:8), this implies that time is a factor in our relationship with Him. Anything that is developed requires time (such as character), and eternal life means endless time, not non-existent time. Time is defined by motion, and since no one in eternity is ever motionless or frozen, everything and everyone is involved in time.

 

[tdidymas]

They would use verses like:
2Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began

Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,

Then use scientific terms like "our space, time, continuum."
In physics, spacetime, also called the space-time continuum, is a mathematical model that fuses the three dimensions of space and the one dimension of time into a single four-dimensional continuum.

I would even have to say that if God created our universe of time and space, He must in some way be outside of it. We call it the Creator - creation distinction.

"Before time began" is simply an expression that means before the creation of the universe. It doesn't mean "before time began" that time didn't exist. If God had progressive thoughts "before time began," then He was operating in His own time framework. If God promised something, even just in thought, "before time began," then it shows that God operates in time, that is, His own framework of time. If time did not exist before the creation of the universe, then even God was motionless and thoughtless, since progression of thought requires moment-to-moment thought motion. If Jesus had glory with the Father "before the world was," then there was certainly motion before creation, which implies time progression.

 

[hawkman]

I claim that time is an attribute of God and part of His eternal nature.

Bible scripture to support your claim ?

 

[tdidymas]

Bible scripture to support your claim ?

Didn't you read what I wrote? It's in there. Jesus had glory with the Father before the creation of the world, therefore He and the Father had motion of thought. Time is simply a word for motion of thought or action. If you disagree, then please explain.

 

[hawkman]

Time on Earth has a measured value, but that measurement doesn't really matter in relation to God.

Agreed !

It doesn't mean "before time began" that time didn't exist.

Before time began there was no time . Reply if you want to , my time is limited . Time for bed , time for a song .

"No Time"- Guess Who

No time for a gentle rain
No time for my watch and chain
No time for revolving doors
No time for the killing floor
No time for the killing floor

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

2A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

3A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

4A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

5A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

6A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

7A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

8A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

 

[tdidymas]

Agreed !


Before time began there was no time . Reply if you want to , my time is limited . Time for bed , time for a song .

"No Time"- Guess Who

No time for a gentle rain
No time for my watch and chain
No time for revolving doors
No time for the killing floor
No time for the killing floor

To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

2A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

3A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

4A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

5A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

6A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

7A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

8A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

"Before time began there was no time" ?? Now, can you give a scripture reference that there was NO TIME before creation? You're presuming. Time is a function of motion. When you claim there was "no time" in reference to the expression "before time began," then I think you don't understand what time is. "Before time began" is merely an expression meaning "before the foundation of the world." Relationship involves motion which requires time. If Jesus and the Father had relationship before creation, then there was time before creation. Time is simply a word used for motion of events, actions, or thoughts. If you think that song and Ecc. verses you quoted prove that time didn't exist before creation, then I think you don't know what you're talking about. I asked you to explain what you imagine about it, but you seem reluctant to do so.

 

[Free]

I would suggest reading William Lane Craig on this matter.

https://www.reasonablefaith.org/wri...xistence-nature-of-god/god-time-and-eternity1

"Thus, the proper understanding of God, time, and eternity would be that God exists changelessly and timelessly prior to creation and in time after creation."

https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/scholarly-writings/divine-eternity/god-time-and-eternity

There are additional articles here: https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/scholarly-writings/divine-eternity

 

[Hawkins]

Ephesians 1:4 (NIV)
For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

It's Jewish writing practice from the perspective of God's absolute sovereignty. God foreknew who would be saved at the end, no doubt. However if we are saved only because God knows then we don't need Law and covenants. God just chooses whoever He likes to enter the future Heaven. This is not the case. God knows itself is unimportant. What's important is that God needs an open jurisdiction system to show that God is fair under valid witnesses. God's fairness needs to be well witnessed. God knows in advance or not, it doesn't matter. What matters is that we have fair system provided to carry out a fair Judgment based on what pre-defined. We have an open and fair standard for most of us to be saved with valid witnesses. In contrary, if salvation depends solely on God's foreknowledge, that no one knows if God is a fair God. God thus pre-defined through His Law and covenants that only those fulfilled the pre-defined standard will be able to pass the Final Judgment to enter Heaven.

Predestination on the other hand, is said from the perspective of God's foreknowledge. As God knew in advance that from the perspective of sovereignty that it can be said that God predestined those who are saved (because God already know beforehand). To put it another way, it's like God made a prediction on who shall be saved, while it's a coincidence that by an open and fair Judgment basing on predefined Law and covenants that those saved are exactly as God predicted (that's why it is said that their names are in the book of Life).

 

[Whatever]

What's important is that God needs an open jurisdiction system to show that God is fair under valid witnesses.

Who is going to judge God?
Dan 4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, "What have You done?"

Fallible people want to judge God if He ordains some as vessels of mercy and others as vessels of wrath. What jail are you going to put Him in?

 

[tdidymas]

I would suggest reading William Lane Craig on this matter.

https://www.reasonablefaith.org/wri...xistence-nature-of-god/god-time-and-eternity1

"Thus, the proper understanding of God, time, and eternity would be that God exists changelessly and timelessly prior to creation and in time after creation."

https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/scholarly-writings/divine-eternity/god-time-and-eternity

There are additional articles here: https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/scholarly-writings/divine-eternity

The first paragraphs of his article shows a fallacy, that he assumes that God existing in time means that God exists in time as we know and measure it. It's a false premise.

Later, he says, "if He [God] had a stream of consciousness, clearly He would be temporal because there would be a temporal series of mental events going on in His mind."
Here Craig admits that if God thinks, having progression of thoughts, then He exists in time. But if God is "changeless" as suggested, then He doesn't even think anything, and there cannot be any ongoing relationship between persons of the Godhead. He uses the analogy of a "timeless moment" when people just bask in the presence of another. Yet this is a contradiction to a changeless and timeless being.

God saying "I change not" does not mean He is changeless - that's out of context. It means that when God says something He sticks to it, this is the context in which that is spoken. "Changeless" would mean that He doesn't think anything different from one moment to the next, and thus He could not act, react, or "make all things new" in the temporal realm. A timeless God could not partake in temporal affairs, much less infuse Himself with a temporal human nature. Yet, God the Son has done so, and it is a permanent and eternal state of being. When the Bible says that God relented from what He intended to do to Nineveh, it means that God has reacted to the repentance of the city. How could a "changeless" God do such a thing?

If God were timeless, then there would be no such thing as an eternity past. Obviously there is an eternity future, since we all have eternal life. Therefore, it seems contradictory and illogical to claim there is an eternity future but no eternity past. If one does not presume that eternity past is in the same time framework as it is in the created order, then it can easily be denied that God is subject to the laws of physics. God created the laws of physics, and the created time framework is part of it. It does not mean that time is not an attribute of God, and that His existence has time in it.

If God had moments before the created order, then He exists in time. The definition of time should tell us that, since it says, "the indefinite continued progress of existence..." I truncate it because the definition in the dictionary assumes time of the created order. My point is that God is self-existent, and the continued existence of God prior to the created order requires time in that existence.

We know also there is time in the spiritual realm, since the angels are constantly doing things.

But the endless debate rages on.

 

[Marilyn C]

Time, matter and space all started together.

 

[tdidymas]

Time, matter and space all started together.

All good argument for refuting atheism. But trying to use this to prove that God operates with no time is out of context. Everywhere that "timeless" is used, it is in the context of eternity; so "timeless" actually means "eternal"; it doesn't mean "no time." Just as "priceless" doesn't mean no value, but rather means the opposite, infinite value. Before there was any price laid on an item, that item was not for sale. And before there was time associated with the created universe, time was not measured. It doesn't mean there was no time. Therefore, I assert that there was an eternity past. And the expression "God is outside of time" is merely referring to the time framework in creation.

"Exist" means expression of being, and that expression requires there to be time for expression. Since the Godhead had relationship before creation, there had to be expression. But we must not assume that God's eternal time framework is the same as the time framework embedded in the created universe. Creation time is a subset, or expression, of eternal time. It may be equivalent, or may not be. We do know that there is variance in creation time, but we don't know anything about eternal time, except that Isaiah, Ezekiel, Paul, and John got a glimpse of it.