Forgiveness

[Wrg1405]

We know that forgiveness is fundamental to the Gospel and also as an out working in our lives for those of us who are Christ followers.

I do have a couple of questions which follow the next 3 paragraphs. They are for reference to my situation.
I have added them as it may help someone who is in the same situation as I was. Sorry if it detracts from the 2 questions I ask at the end.

For 26 years I refused to forgive someone (testimony I'm sure a shared in a previous post).
No matter how many times I was told by people who new my situation that I needed to forgive I would not. I must admit that because I would not forgive it caused me no end of issues from emotional to psychological and spiritual problems. About 4 years ago (Up till then I stopped going to church for 15 years) I decided to go and see the pastor of my church. He suggested I do the Freedom in Christ and gavw me some material. Part of it was to do with forgiveness. So I knew my situation would come up but I resolved I wouldn't let it.

Before I did Freedom in Christ I came before God one day and he bought it up. Despite my initial refusal he persuaded me because he made me realise he would help me, heal me and be with me. In fact it was like he took a baseball bat to my mind and had to batter it in a sense. So I yielded and God was true to his word. It was at that point that God started to do a deeper work in my life mainly to do with acceptance as a child of his.

I do thank God though because I was able to be because the person I refused to forgive died not long after I had forgiven him and I was able to be at his side on his deathbed. He died after I had forgiven him (I never told him that as I didn't think it was right) and I sorted out his worldly affairs.

My question is that I never said sorry to God that I carried that unforgivness attitude for so long so should I have said sorry?

To me it became apparent that even with such an attitude God seemed to be waiting for the right time to deal with this situation in my life even though at the time, I thought I wouldn't deal with it. Some say and have told me that if I did not forgive then God would not forgive me. Do you think that is true?

 

[KevinK]

Some say and have told me that if I did not forgive then God would not forgive me. Do you think that is true?

Absolutely I do. In fact, I feel it strikes at one of the core issues of human existence:

"For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Matthew 6: 14-15​

And the Lord's Prayer, basically taken from Matt 6:

Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us,
and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.​

How can you expect the Almighty Father to forgive your sins, if you have not forgiven those who have sinned against you?

 

[Wrg1405]

Absolutely I do. In fact, I feel it strikes at one of the core issues of human existence.

"For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Matthew 6: 14-15

And the Lord's Prayer, basically taken from Matt 6:

Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us,
and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

How can you expect the Almighty Father to forgive your sins, if you have not forgiven those who have sinned against you?

So that being the case would you say that if I died before I had forgiven this person but had forgiven others then I would end up in hell?

 

[KevinK]

So that being the case would you say that if I died before I had forgiven this person but had forgiven others then I would end up in hell?

Well, it's hardly my place to decide who goeth to Hell and who don't. That said, yes, I personally live my life as though a single instance of unforgiveness, no matter how "minor", can threaten your salvation. One second after you die, you can no longer forgive (or perhaps it doesn't count any longer), and you can no longer repent your own sins.

But why are you asking? It sounds like you have forgiven this person.

 

[Wrg1405]

Just interested to know what others think.

I agree that it is not our place to decide who spends eternity with God or not.
Yes when we die we cannot repent of our sins whatever you class a sin.

I get from you that if you do not forgive then it can threaten your salvation (if you could expand for me please) but what about if I lied or got angry with my wife and before I could repent I was run over by a bus. What then?

What's your thoughts on repentance?

 

[Cygnus]

Absolutely I do. In fact, I feel it strikes at one of the core issues of human existence:

"For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Matthew 6: 14-15​

And the Lord's Prayer, basically taken from Matt 6:

Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us,
and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.​

How can you expect the Almighty Father to forgive your sins, if you have not forgiven those who have sinned against you?

Kevin, get real. Seriously.....If I ever hear that verse presented that way again I think I'll burn my bible.

Do you know how many believers have not forgiven people for certain actions? My guess 100%. According to your interpretation no one is saved.....or Wrg1405 wasn't saved until he finally forgave.

 

[Cygnus]

Just interested to know what others think.

I agree that it is not our place to decide who spends eternity with God or not.
Yes when we die we cannot repent of our sins whatever you class a sin.

I get from you that if you do not forgive then it can threaten your salvation (if you could expand for me please) but what about if I lied or got angry with my wife and before I could repent I was run over by a bus. What then?

What's your thoughts on repentance?

There are many who preach a false gospel where you fall out of salvation then back into salvation when you finally get it right.
For me the bible is very clear....NOBODY can snatch us from Jesus' hands. John 10:28.

 

[KevinK]

I get from you that if you do not forgive then it can threaten your salvation (if you could expand for me please)

OK, I'll just say it straight, then (my personal belief): if there's a single person in your life whom you've failed to forgive, you go to Hell. But, in a way it's simple: just tell God that you have forgiven everyone, even people you've forgotten about. Forgiving is rarely if ever easy, but it can be simple.

Doesn't such a harsh statute nearly guarantee that multitudes are destined to a fiery grave? Yes, that it does. It's a horrendous thought, but I think most people go to Hell. You do hear of the road less-traveled (i.e. following Jesus), and a very crowded Hellish interstate. I'd actually prefer to be wrong about this, but you asked for my opinion.

 

[Wrg1405]

It does worry me and make me sad. Unless I have repented of my sins before I die then I'm going to hell.
That being the case then further confusion arises.

Psalm 103:12
As far as the east is from the west he has removed our sins.

Heb 8:12
And I will forgive their wickedness and I will never remember their sins.

Heb 10:14-18
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

Either our sins are fully forgiven or not, either God chooses to remember our sins no more or he does.

I am not thinking about people who use Gods forgiveness as an excuse to sin. I'm talking about people like me who beleive, who wants to be more like Christ and be the person who God wants me to be. People like me who gets it wrong. Like David, Abraham, Noah, Saul, Peter, Thomas and the list could go on.

 

[KevinK]

...what about if I lied or got angry with my wife and before I could repent I was run over by a bus. What then?
What's your thoughts on repentance?

Moving on to repentance...similarly you must repent each and all of your sins, or you go to Hell (I'm in speakeasy mode at this point, just for efficient communication. Please excuse the directness if it sounds harsh.)

Now, the scenario you just gave is a tricky one, indeed. I'll have to preface this one with an official "I don't know for sure". I think it does bring up some important points...first, repentance is a full-time occupation. Human beings drink iniquity like water, i.e. we are sinning all the time. Just stands to reason we ought to be repenting all the time (I say "I'm sorry" to God all day long.) Hopefully when your "number" comes up, you're clean-to-go. Jesus said to settle things with your neighbor on the way to the courthouse; the timing is that critical.

Maybe that bus will decide your long-term fate, and not in a good way. So you better learn to be fast with the forgiving and repenting. Now that all said, I also like to think that God knows us in our hearts, and understands that we might need a couple-few minutes to come around, and somehow cuts a little slack. But I wouldn't bet my soul on it.

I don't think salvation is an easy thing. It's simple, but simple does not equal easy.

 

[Wrg1405]

OK, I'll just say it straight, then (my personal belief): if there's a single person in your life whom you've failed to forgive, you go to Hell. But, in a way it's simple: just tell God that you have forgiven everyone, even people you've forgotten about. Forgiving is rarely if ever easy, but it can be simple.

Doesn't such a harsh statute nearly guarantee that multitudes are destined to a fiery grave? Yes, that it does. It's a horrendous thought, but I think most people go to Hell. You do hear of the road less-traveled (i.e. following Jesus), and a very crowded Hellish interstate. I'd actually prefer to be wrong about this, but you asked for my opinion.

Oh dear that causes me an issue. What you have said is basically a few words spoken means God will forgive me even if I'm lying. Yes I agree that we need to forgive but from the heart and just by words. I could have spoken those words yet left this man to die on his own and the family left behind to struggle with his estate. My actions were proof I had forgiven, that's what God looks at.

Forgiveness can be simple???? Try telling that to someone who was fostered out to a Christian family only to be sexually abused by the foster dad for 4 years, given the choice of staying there or thrown out or put into a childrens home or sent back to the mother who threw them out because she did not love them.

Given your thoughts the person mentioned above who at some point beleives in the grace of God who saves him (Jesus said the only work of God is to beleive in the one he sent (again not talking greasy grace here))
calls on Jesus name but dies a minute after their confession is in hell. Really?

Deathbed experiences we know about, they tend to be "God forgive me of my sin" most would generally agree the person praying that prayer are saved.

Are you saying that such a person would have to add "I forgive so and so as well just to be safe"

If unforgivness is a sin then surely it is the same as every sin mentioned in the bible.

 

[KevinK]

It does worry me and make me sad. Unless I have repented of my sins before I die then I'm going to hell.

We all get the same deal.

That being the case then further confusion arises.

Psalm 103:12
As far as the east is from the west he has removed our sins.
(edit)

This discussion comes up from time-to-time. Why do we need to do anything basically if the Blood has already cleansed us of our sins? Maybe someone else has a better answer than I do. The way I address this one is simply accepting the fact that God is a lot smarter than any of us, and would not allow such a basic "loophole" to operate. So I continue to forgive and repent, forgive and repent. I don't even feel any particular need to even understand more. I'll just act this one on faith.

 

[Wrg1405]

KevinK

I just want to say that I'm not going at you. Your my brother in Christ. I have made a post and you have responded so I'm chatting with you and chewing the fat. Just like the differences they had in the early church. So my responses are in love and a willingness to learn.

 

[KevinK]

KevinK

I just want to say that I'm not going at you. Your my brother in Christ. I have made a post and you have responded so I'm chatting with you and chewing the fat. Just like the differences they had in the early church. So my responses are in love and a willingness to learn.

Oh, I know that, Wrg1405. You've got a lot of questions, who doesn't. I'm not taking it as being challenged, just being asked, which is perfectly fine.

 

[Wrg1405]

The way I address this one is simply accepting the fact that God is a lot smarter than any of us, and would not allow such a basic "loophole" to operate.

Yes God is a lot smarter than any of us. Good job he is. What do you mean by "loophole"

 

[Cygnus]

Moving on to repentance...similarly you must repent each and all of your sins, or you go to Hell (I'm in speakeasy mode at this point, just for efficient communication. Please excuse the directness if it sounds harsh.)

Now, the scenario you just gave is a tricky one, indeed. I'll have to preface this one with an official "I don't know for sure". I think it does bring up some important points...first, repentance is a full-time occupation. Human beings drink iniquity like water, i.e. we are sinning all the time. Just stands to reason we ought to be repenting all the time (I say "I'm sorry" to God all day long.) Hopefully when your "number" comes up, you're clean-to-go. Jesus said to settle things with your neighbor on the way to the courthouse; the timing is that critical.

Maybe that bus will decide your long-term fate, and not in a good way. So you better learn to be fast with the forgiving and repenting. Now that all said, I also like to think that God knows us in our hearts, and understands that we might need a couple-few minutes to come around, and somehow cuts a little slack. But I wouldn't bet my soul on it.

I don't think salvation is an easy thing. It's simple, but simple does not equal easy.

I believe there are two types of repentance mentioned in the bible. The first is a repentance to salvation....Obeying God and believing in Christ.....repent about doing it your way so-to-speak....and the second is the "full time occupation" you mentioned above.

 

[Wrg1405]

Moving on to repentance...similarly you must repent each and all of your sins, or you go to Hell (I'm in speakeasy mode at this point, just for efficient communication. Please excuse the directness if it sounds harsh.)

Now, the scenario you just gave is a tricky one, indeed. I'll have to preface this one with an official "I don't know for sure". I think it does bring up some important points...first, repentance is a full-time occupation. Human beings drink iniquity like water, i.e. we are sinning all the time. Just stands to reason we ought to be repenting all the time (I say "I'm sorry" to God all day long.) Hopefully when your "number" comes up, you're clean-to-go. Jesus said to settle things with your neighbor on the way to the courthouse; the timing is that critical.

Maybe that bus will decide your long-term fate, and not in a good way. So you better learn to be fast with the forgiving and repenting. Now that all said, I also like to think that God knows us in our hearts, and understands that we might need a couple-few minutes to come around, and somehow cuts a little slack. But I wouldn't bet my soul on it.

I don't think salvation is an easy thing. It's simple, but simple does not equal easy.

Did Jesus not take all of our I iniquity upon himself when he died?

 

[KevinK]

OK, a lot going on here. Bear in mind I got no sleep last night at all, so I can't guarantee against goofy answers today.

Oh dear that causes me an issue. What you have said is basically a few words spoken means God will forgive me even if I'm lying. Yes I agree that we need to forgive but from the heart and just by words. I could have spoken those words yet left this man to die on his own and the family left behind to struggle with his estate. My actions were proof I had forgiven, that's what God looks at.

I must have communicated badly on that one. You can't lie to God. At least not effectively. The forgiveness must be heartfelt and not just empty words. My bad if I came across any other way.

Forgiveness can be simple???? Try telling that to someone who was fostered out to a Christian family only to be sexually abused by the foster dad for 4 years, given the choice of staying there or thrown out or put into a childrens home or sent back to the mother who threw them out because she did not love them.

Yes, simple, not easy. Two different things, and I did spell that out above. Forgiveness is "Yes, I forgive that person for what that person did." It's that simple, but you must mean it. That second part is why it's not so easy most of the time. I know all about the tough forgive. The person who drove me into a tree when I was 18 and ruined the rest of my life refuses to face what he did or apologize. I have already told God that I have forgiven him, even as I drop a 3x dose of addictive pain medication. If I don't forgive him (my f-in' best friend!), how can God forgive me my sins?

Given your thoughts the person mentioned above who at some point beleives in the grace of God who saves him (Jesus said the only work of God is to beleive in the one he sent (again not talking greasy grace here))
calls on Jesus name but dies a minute after their confession is in hell. Really?

Deathbed experiences we know about, they tend to be "God forgive me of my sin" most would generally agree the person praying that prayer are saved.

Are you saying that such a person would have to add "I forgive so and so as well just to be safe"

If unforgivness is a sin then surely it is the same as every sin mentioned in the bible.

I'm missing your meaning here. Would you be able to repost this last question separately? And slow down between questions would be really helpful, too, or I might have to pull a Yoda "no more will I teach you today" deal...lol.

 

[Cygnus]

Did Jesus not take all of our I iniquity upon himself when he died?

Yes, and I might add...past, present and FUTURE.

 

[KevinK]

I believe there are two types of repentance mentioned in the bible. The first is a repentance to salvation....Obeying God and believing in Christ.....repent about doing it your way so-to-speak....and the second is the "full time occupation" you mentioned above.

That might be helpful. Can you elaborate?