Formal Debate between OC and Jason: Salvation (reserved)

[Orthodox Christian]

Hi Jason: I decided that the other thread was too cluttered, and thought it best to bring my latest post ;) and the earlier submissions here.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Debate parameters

First post by each debater will define the doctrine.
Second post by each debater will be a rebuttal.
Third post by each debater will be a list of no more then 5 questions.
Forth post will be answers to the questions.
Fifth post by each debater will be a rebuttal to the answers given to the 5 questions.
Sixth and final post by each debater will be closing statements.



All others are asked NOT to post until each debater makes final post.

God bless and thank you.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Jason's post 1
Salvation is a huge topic, when I first set out to write my first post it ended up being about about 6 pages long and I was just getting started. There is so much one could and should say about salvation, I had a hard time keeping it simple. In an effort to be brief and do the topic justice, I've chosen to give some background to the issue and then state what I believe is true Christian doctrine using a format similar to the London Baptist Confession and the Westminster Confession of Faith.

I ask that you take the time to look up and read in context the Bible quotations in this debate, as the good Bearens did in Acts 16, don't allow one passage to be untested.

Background

When Adam and Eve ate of the fruit in the garden, they fell out of communion with God, becoming spiritually dead. The punishment was death, but they didn't die physically, they died spiritually.

Romans 3:10-19
Romans 3:23
Romans 5:12
Titus 1:15
Genesis 6:5
Jeremiah 17:9

The guilt of there sin was imputed to there offspring (us) which inclines all of us to evil, "and by nature children of wrath, the servants of sin, the subjects of death, and all other miseries, spiritual, temporal, and eternal, unless the Lord Jesus set them free." (quoting LBC 1689)

Romans 5:12-19
1 Corinthians 15:21, 22, 45, 49
Psalm 51:5
Job 14:4
Ephesians 2:3
Romans 5:12; 6:20
Hebrews 2:14, 15
1 Thessalonians 1:10

God calls all men everwhere to repent of sin, the problem is, no one is willing to repent and come to Christ. Due to man's sin, God effectually calls some according to His plan, by his Word and Spirit, out of that there sin by Grace to salvation in the Lord Jesus Christ.

John 5:25
2 Timothy 1:9
Ephesians 1:19, 20; 2:5-8
1 Corinthians 2:14

When God calls a sinner He also covers that sinner with righteousness by pardoning their sins, for Christ's sake alone, least any man should boast. This is Grace: resting on Christ and his righteousness alone for salvation. God will continue to forgive the sins of those Christ died for (the justified), and since no sin can separate us from the love of God the saved/justified will never fall from that state.

Matthew 6:12; 26:75
1 John 1:7, 9
John 10:28
Psalm 32:5
Psalm 51
Psalm 89:31-33

Once adotoped by God the Father we are sealed until the day of redemption when we inherit the promises as heirs of the covenant which is everlasting salvation.

Psalm 103:13
Proverbs 14:26
Isaiah 54:8, 9
Lamentations 3:31
John 1:12
Ephesians 1:5, 4:30
Galatians 4:4-6
Romans 8:15-17
2 Corinthians 6:18
Ephesians 2:18
1 Peter 5:7
Hebrews 1:14, 6:12, 12:6
Revelation 3:12

Once you have been 'born again' by the power of God, you recieve a new spirit through the virtue of Christ's death and resurrection. Due to the dwelling of the Holy Spirit dwelling those who are born of God, sin is weakened and destroyed. A war continues to rage in the believer because of corruption of our nature, which is sinful, "yet through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ." (quoting LBC 1689)

As we read in Hebrews 10, no one can ever fall from Grace and they recieve 'perfection' because of what Christ did. "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." Heb. 10:14

John 17:17
Acts 20:32
Romans 6:5, 6, 14
Ephesians 3:16-19
1 Thessalonians 5:21-23
Galatians 5:24
Colossians 1:11
2 Corinthians 7:1
Hebrews 12:14

The Grace of faith is the work of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit alone by brought by the Word of God, the Holy Bible. Saving faith is the immediate relationship with Christ, "accepting, receiving, and resting upon him alone for justification, sanctification, and eternal life, by virtue of the covenant of grace." (quoting LBC 1689)

Psalm 27:7-10
Psalm 119:72
Acts 15:11, 16:31, 24:14
2 Timothy 1:12
John 14:14
Isaiah 66:2
Hebrews 11:13
John 1:12
Galatians 2:20

The Biblical View of Salvation

Eph. 2:8 - 10 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

I believe, 'and that' is a summation of both grace and faith that come before it. Both grace and faith are gifts of God, for belief is a work (John 6:29 "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.") and men can boast on works.

Therefore, (it's a KJV word that means I'm about to bring about a conclusion): "We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." (Gal. 2:15-16). Our authority is the Bible Alone (Sola Scriptura) for doctrine and practice. Our salvation is by God's Sovereign Grace Alone (Sola Gratia) and conditioned upon Christ Alone (Solo Christo). We rely upon Christ entirely for their salvation by the gift of Faith Alone (Sola Fide). This is all done for the Glory of God Alone (Soli Deo Gloria).

God bless, jason
PS: Look up the passages, please...

 

[Orthodox Christian]

OC post 1
I had taken some time to reflect on your first post- it seemed to me to be a reasonable preamble or introduction...and then I realized that you had concluded.

Your premise, in short: Justification is accomplished by Christ, and this justification is synonymous with salvation.

Though you gave a brief nod to the concept of sanctification, your concluding remarks confirm that your emphases in salvation is justification.

All of your proof texts, save one, point to justification through the atoning work of Christ, through faith- a premise we Orthodox have held to be true from the beginning. We who read the scriptures are familiar with the 'Roman road'- ie, Paul's treatise on the matter in the letter to the Romans.

Paul makes it is clear in his contributions to scripture that none is justified by works of the Law. There is no way for me to balance out my unlawful deeds, in the manner which Muslims believe, for it is clear that we who fail in one aspect, fail on the whole.

So Christ satisfied the requirements of the Law as we cannot- and thusly, 'saved us.'

However, James makes the argument that we indeed are justified by our acts
James 2:21

So what, then- is James at odds with Paul? Does half of the Church teach justification by works? God forbid.

What James is speaking of, which was clear to the ancients, was that there was no such thing as faith without action. That is the edikaithi of which James spoke, that is the pisteuo of which the Creed and the scriptures speak of- a faith that is three dimensional: belief coupled with action. They had no framework to understand our Rationalistic approach to belief, which speaks only of intellectual assent. There was NO SUCH concept among the Jews, from whom we received the gospel.

Therefore, justification been accomplished, once and for all, but it is not appropriated by all for various reasons: Some would not believe (John 3:18), those who are shut up in disobedience and hardened by God (Romans 11:25), those who are beset by sins or demonic oppression (1 Corinthians 5:15).

This is why the watch phrase of the Reformation -sola fide- is so utterly deceptive- for it appropriates the documents sanctified by the Spirit of God and the blood of martyrs (I am speaking of the scriptures), yet fails to carry the ethos contained within the epistles. Big ideas, no action.

For it is clear that the end of the Law- or rather, its purpose- was to bring us to Christ. What, to His cross? yes, but moreover, to His life.

Quote:
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


His life is the sanctification, the glorification of man, as we are transformed into the image of the Son. He did not die only to satisfy the Law, but "to bring many sons to glory"

Demons believe, and shudder. Belief is transient. Faith without works is dead. There is no justification without glorification- and vice versa.

So what is salvation, then? What is ‘being saved?’ To speak of what is required to be saved, one must first understand what the biblical concept of salvation is.

The term used in Greek is sos and its derivatives: (soson and soter, for example) translated as ‘save’ in English. These DO NOT always refer directly to eternal salvation, nor do they refer to eternal salvation exclusively in the past tense.

The scriptures use the terms ‘are saved,’ ‘being saved’, ‘will be saved’ freely. The scriptures, in contrast with contemporary formulas, frequently use the future tense of 'saved' with those who are professing, worshipping Christians.
For example

1 corinthians 1:18 (RSV, NASB, NKJV)
Paul uses conduct as an indicator as to whether will be saved
ie “You are saved IF you hold fast the Wordâ€Â
1 Corinthians 15:2
See also Acts 15:11

The modern churchman assures us, by means of his blessed assurance, that he IS SAVED, and his salvation cannot be taken from him- as if it was a possession. But salvation is not a possession, it is a relationship with a Savior- or more properly- to THE Savior. Note that I said 'it is' not 'it happens by thus and such.'

But let us consider: how is it that we are saved? Surely, should we not be justified by Christ’s atoning work, none of us would be saved. So, having been justified by faith, how are we then saved? By continuing in faith, transformed, glory to glory (2 Corinthians 3:18). By persevering to the end (Rev 2:7). By holding fast (1 Corinthians 15:2). By doing as He commanded to those whom He loves (Matthew 25)

Salvation as I stated before, is not possession, is not a clean ledger sheet, is not a novel act- but is a covenantal relationship with Jesus Christ. Just as my marriage BEGAN when I put on a wedding band, so does our salvation begin with His shed blood, that which He spoke of at the so-called ‘last supper.’ I did not make the two into one flesh, nor did I justify myself, nor will I- yet I am responsible for stewarding both.

So, what then? Is salvation mine to cast away? We have already stated that it is not a possession. Though it is conceivable that I could walk away and cease ‘being saved,’ it is highly doubtful that I would do so, because He is faithful, and His grace is powerful. Just as my relationship with my wife is nourished by the Word of God, and prayer, and acts of love and sacrifice….so is my salvation nourished in like manner. Just as my body is strengthened by meat and drink and bread, so is my body AND inner man strengthened- or damaged- by the powerful sacrament of God’s grace (1 Corinthians 11:27-30).

We do believe that grace can be contained and conveyed in physical form, elsewise why should the Word become flesh? Also, why use oil to anoint (James 5:14) or cloths like Paul did to heal the sick? Never have we said that the holy Mysteries save in and of themselves (ex opere operato), but- mixed with faith, they are a grace which aids in our salvation (in the manner we mean salvation, not in your narrow definition which means simply in hell or in heaven).

In summation, for now, though I believe you have correctly identified Christ as the only Saving One, I see your position on the topic of salvation as being expressly narrow and legalistic, de-emphasizing sanctification and glorification within the bounds of wedlock with the Bridegroom. I see your position as being almost exclusively individualistic, yet the scriptures speak clearly of the Church and the manifestation of Christ in ekklesia. I see your viewpoint of salvation as excluding of action on the part of the ‘saved,’ almost as if something “done†to a person by Christ.

In short, your salvation is a singular 'work' of faith expressed in a confession or affective experience.

Salvation, from an Orthodox perspective, is a complex interaction between us, God, and everything around us. Fortunately, He is able to preserve us to the Day of Judgement, should we hold fast to Him. We are being saved, and we shall forever continue to be saved, as we continue in our return,as prodigals, to the home we abandoned when we fell in sin.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Jason post 2
For the record, I want to thank OC for agreeing making a post in this discussion. It’s not about winning or losing this debate, but giving a fair account of what each of us believes to be the truth of the faith. I also want to thank OC for refraining from the use of sarcasm, we both take these issues seriously and I hope the reader will as well. As I attempt another post, I ask that you again consider the Bible, consider it as a whole and test any interpretation given by the Bible. No verse, no chapter and no book of Holy Scripture stands on it’s own and should be viewed in context.

* OC mentions James 2. At first glance it may seem as if James is telling us that Abraham was justified by works, but this simply cannot be true. The apostle Paul makes it clear, this isn’t the cause, as we read in Romans 4:2 “For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.†Abraham had both faith and works, the former were known by the latter. This is the classic Reformed view and I contend the proper Biblical view. I agree when you write, “that there was no such thing as faith without action†I tried to make that clear in my OP, sorry if I wasn’t able to. Allow me to quote: …good works, done in obedience to God's commandments, are the fruits and evidences of a true and lively faith; and by them believers manifest their thankfulness, strengthen their assurance, edify their brethren, adorn the profession of the gospel, stop the mouths of the adversaries, and glorify God, whose workmanship they are, created in Christ Jesus thereunto, that having their fruit unto holiness they may have the end eternal life. I hope that helped a little. To understand James 2 we need to return to Gen. 15:6 for a better understanding, Abraham believed in the Lord and we see faith accounted him as righteousness. In other words, he was justified by faith. (sola fide) It was not until we get to Gen. 22 that we find Abraham was justified by works, faith first and after God’s testing we find works. Abraham’s faith was real, it was a truly saving faith manifest in his willingness to obey God. We also find in James, “How faith wrought with his works…†and his faith was made perfect. Works are produced by our faith, but our salvation is by faith alone.

* With a quick look at John 17 & Hebrews 10 we see that Jesus always intercedes on the behalf of those for whom He died. Unless there exists decent in the Trinity, the Father always hears the prayer of the Son, this intercession always (we are told) results in the sanctification of the believer. That means a justified believer will have good works. Another point Paul drives home can be found in Romans, we read that no one seeks after God, literally “there is no God seekerâ€Â! Man cannot in his natural state perform good works; therefore a believer has to already be in good standing with God by the blood of Jesus Christ. OC mentions John 3, great passage, our Lord tells us “except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.†From the lips of Jesus we find that we cannot even see the Kingdom of God! This is a powerful statement that speaks directly to our justification. Justification first, sanctification follows. What OC is suggesting is pure synergism, which means God’s Grace cannot save unless human effort is used. The Bible tells us we are unable to offer anything toward our salvation; we are dead in sin. Ehp. 2:1-2 & Col. 2:13 Are we physically dead? No. What does this mean if we are not physically dead? We are spiritually dead in our sin. No good work we do will ever bring about salvation, we need to be born again first before we are able to perform good works in the eyes of God and once born again we can never be lost. As Jesus Christ taught in Holy Scriptures, that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that born of the Spirit is Spirit. To sum up, we are dead in sin and no work performed will change that, we cannot even see the Kingdom offer. We are born again by the power of God unto salvation, good works follow.

* Sola fide. OC believes the term “faith alone†can be deceptive and it may if it stands on its own, but we have five solas not one. What’s more deceptive, is placing one sola on it’s own without explanation… The five solas are as follows: Scripture alone, God’s glory alone, Christ alone, Grace alone and finally faith alone. The works that accompany salvation should be seen in each one of the solas, it would take too much time to explain all in detail so please look them up. One quick example: We perform good works for “God’s glory alone†and not to add anything to further our standing in God’s eyes, they are fruit of our standing. What works is it that OC is so considered with? You would be hard pressed to find an evangelical Church not doing something for the community. Kissing icons, grazing into icons, burning incense, signing the cross over the forehead and shoulders, repetitive prayer, are these works Biblical expressions of "good works?" This is about salvation and not an attack on icons (I have six!), but how would any of these fulfill the requirements of a good work? What good works do evangelicals lack? Korea for example has an evangelical Christian majority and most of these Christians are Reformed in theology. The majority of missions are backed by evangelical Christians, China, Russia, South America and Africa are all being brought to Christ by our effects. My Church supports missionaries and a Bible printing mission and I'm also active in outreach programs.

* You speak of the Scriptures and martyrs blood, evangelicals know of both very well. John Wycliff and the Lollards, Jan Huss to name a few. If you want to talk about martyrs my Baptist forefathers were almost completely annihilated at one point in history. You wrote “Big ideas, no action.†This is, in many ways, offensive.

* As a believer I use the term ‘saved.’ I use it because of the confidence I have in Christ’s death on the cross, because of God’s saving Grace. When Jesus Christ died on the cross it was a substituntionary death for the elect, those who believe. Only those who reduce salvation and therefore the work of Christ on the cross to a hypothetical level will logically lack assurance of salvation. As John Calvin wrote: “If we are in communion with Christ, we have proof sufficiently clear and strong that we are written in the Book of Life.†You mention demons believe, so what? The Bible tells us faith is a gift of God, all others must then have a false faith. To prove the point, go back to James 2 where we are told that works must accompany true saving faith. What OC is suggesting is that it is possible for a person to have faith; just not enough to warrant salvation…this boils down to man working for salvation.

* By no fault of OC’s own doing, I think he misunderstood my position. I should've have taken more time to explain the importance of good works in the life of a believer…From reading OC’s first post one thing is certain, lack of ability to define what exactly the Orthodox believe and teach. It’s not OC’s fault for this inability, it has to do with the putrification from within. The Islamic hold in the East is well documented (see Herman Bavinck’s Prolegomena), as well as a tendency of the Eastern Christians to refuse to define dogma until Russia started doing so in the 1800’s. Besides the work the Eastern Christians have done on the early Christological controversy, there development and understanding of Scripture is very limited, by there tradition. The Orthodox tend to put a lot of stock in the physical as the Roman Church does and it is for this reason they stand shoulder to shoulder with RC theology, the RC’s just define it much better. OC claims ‘my’ view is narrow, well, his view is too vague and lacks understanding of Christ’s perfect work on the cross to justify the sinner. Instead of providing an Orthodox eisegesis one of the passages I provided in my OP, OC posted what he thought would prove his case, but his case leans not on the Word of God but on tradition.

Thank you.

Jason the Reformer!
PS> Before I finish this post I wanted to apologize to OC for the rude and unChristian like posts I’ve made this week. I have many excuses as to why I did such a thing but none of them are good enough to explain by behavior. OC, find it in your heart to forgive me? Pr 17:17 A friend loveth at all times, and a brother is born for adversity.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Abraham’s faith was real, it was a truly saving faith manifest in his willingness to obey God. We also find in James, “How faith wrought with his works…†and his faith was made perfect. Works are produced by our faith, but our salvation is by faith alone.

But again we see a problem of definition. You see, you tacitly agree that faith is followed by good works, whereby Avraham was justified. But you describe this faith as being an idea or state that is proven by action- whereas classic Orthodox theology, as well as accurate rendering of the Greek terms involved, make it clear that this faith is made alive/real/living/organic by action- and not just one action, but actions.

We do not see a separation between the world of thought and the world of action, as did some Jews, who thought that 'don't commit adultery' was a Law that could not intrude into their 'inner Kingdom.'

Here's how thought becomes action, and action becomes thought:
Adultery does not occur because a neighbor flirts with a husband. Rather, having begun a marriage in faith, a man entertains inner adultery long before he is vulnerable to the end of his dead faith.
See James 1:13-15 for a parallel.
Having committed adultery, a man now is inclined to think about the adultery a great deal, and to repeat.

Another distinctive is your use of the word ‘salvation,’ as I have said before. You speak of salvation in terms of your legal standing before God, as if it was a traffic ticket that you beat.

Now, having beaten this traffic ticket, released from fault to a lifetime of worry-free driving, why are we warned to not fall away (Hebrews 6:4-6), bury our talent (and thus lose it, Matt 25:28),. Why are we told that if we overcome we will be called a Son of God, and will not have our name blotted out of the Book of Life(Rev 3:5).

Because we are still driving, and where we are going is stil TBD.

This argument is not, as you know, unique between us. It is also an argument within the Protestant tent, between those that are called Arminians and those loosely referred to as Reformed/Calvinist.

Rather than reduce salvation to formula, we Orthodox see God, faith, and faithfulness working synergystically to TRANSFORM the saint- which is God’s goal. God is looking for Sons, not just babes.
Upon this I am certain we agree.

With a quick look at John 17 & Hebrews 10 we see that Jesus always intercedes on the behalf of those for whom He died. Unless there exists decent in the Trinity, the Father always hears the prayer of the Son, this intercession always (we are told) results in the sanctification of the believer. That means a justified believer will have good works.

Stop there: Are you suggesting that we cannot resist or grieve the Spirit within? Perhaps you’ve noted in your life- I have in mine- the freedom God gives me to turn left or right. He sets life and death before me, and tells me to chose life- but ultimately, I am the one who chooses. It is only through the cross of Christ and His resurrection that we are even able to walk th path, much less choose- but sanctification is a two-way street. Can we resist the intercession of Christ?

Is 65:2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way [that was] not good, after their own thoughts.

So it would seem.

OC mentions John 3, great passage, our Lord tells us “except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.†From the lips of Jesus we find that we cannot even see the Kingdom of God! This is a powerful statement that speaks directly to our justification. Justification first, sanctification follows. What OC is suggesting is pure synergism, which means God’s Grace cannot save unless human effort is used.

What I stated, and what the scripture says, is that unless one is born from above (gennao anothen) they cannot see the Kingdom of God. This is not about justification- this is about true repentance.

Would you argue that justification occurs because we understand, or because we believe with action? If so, then we are back to the inevitable pairing of belief with action.

Again, when you say that “OC is suggesting that no one can be saved without human effort,†you are not putting your use of the term in my mouth, so-to-speak.

No good work we do will ever bring about salvation, we need to be born again first before we are able to perform good works in the eyes of God and once born again we can never be lost... To sum up, we are dead in sin and no work performed will change that, we cannot even see the Kingdom offer. We are born again by the power of God unto salvation, good works follow.

If we can offer NOTHING in the attainment to salvation, then we cannot believe to salvation, either. Yet we are told “Believe and be baptized, and you shall be saved.â€Â
Until the day I quit being human, what I think and what I do are going to intimately and inseparably linked.

* Sola fide. OC believes the term “faith alone†can be deceptive and it may if it stands on its own, but we have five solas not one. What’s more deceptive, is placing one sola on it’s own without explanation… The five solas are as follows: Scripture alone, God’s glory alone, Christ alone, Grace alone and finally faith alone. The works that accompany salvation should be seen in each one of the solas, it would take too much time to explain all in detail so please look them up. One quick example: We perform good works for “God’s glory alone†and not to add anything to further our standing in God’s eyes, they are fruit of our standing.

Having more than one “sola†is by its very nature confusing.

If you mean we do what we do out of love, flowing from a spirit of adoption, by which we are being transformed, which is synonymous with being saved, then I say yes.

What works is it that OC is so considered with? You would be hard pressed to find an evangelical Church not doing something for the community. Kissing icons, grazing into icons, burning incense, signing the cross over the forehead and shoulders, repetitive prayer, are these works Biblical expressions of "good works?"
This is about salvation and not an attack on icons (I have six!), but how would any of these fulfill the requirements of a good work?

No- and Orthodox are amply and consistently warned that our good deeds WILL NOT save us. Fasting will not justify us. Taking the Eucharist without faith will gain nothing. We are the true synergists of faith with action, even if some of our people are ill-informed. (Hasn’t every tradition got a group who totally miss the point?)
The only 'good works' are those done in faith and in faithfulness and fealty to the Lord, ina spirit of humility. In short, sell out to Christ with everything within you, and realize it is not a credit to you, but the ONLY just response- one which will start you in the right direction.

What good works do evangelicals lack? Korea for example has an evangelical Christian majority and most of these Christians are Reformed in theology. The majority of missions are backed by evangelical Christians, China, Russia, South America and Africa are all being brought to Christ by our effects. My Church supports missionaries and a Bible printing mission and I'm also active in outreach programs.

* You speak of the Scriptures and martyrs blood, evangelicals know of both very well. John Wycliff and the Lollards, Jan Huss to name a few. If you want to talk about martyrs my Baptist forefathers were almost completely annihilated at one point in history. You wrote “Big ideas, no action.†This is, in many ways, offensive.

Let’s take a break here: Just as you intended no offense in the icon example, nor did I in bringing forth the antinomian faction in Evangelicalism. Please do not forget that I was an Evangelical on the mission field, and that I have suffered for my faith. I certainly meant no offense and NO triumphalism. I explained poorly the extreme wing of Evangelical thought that causes me fits.

As John Calvin wrote: “If we are in communion with Christ, we have proof sufficiently clear and strong that we are written in the Book of Life.â€Â

This brings us back to the classic Arminian/Calvinist debate. Let us suffice to say that we are uncomfortable with the faith statements of both of your camps. We find the Arminians to be Pelagianist and the Reformed in denial of human freedom.

*

By no fault of OC’s own doing, I think he misunderstood my position. I should've have taken more time to explain the importance of good works in the life of a believer…From reading OC’s first post one thing is certain, lack of ability to define what exactly the Orthodox believe and teach. It’s not OC’s fault for this inability, it has to do with the putrification from within. The Islamic hold in the East is well documented (see Herman Bavinck’s Prolegomena), as well as a tendency of the Eastern Christians to refuse to define dogma until Russia started doing so in the 1800’s. Besides the work the Eastern Christians have done on the early Christological controversy, there development and understanding of Scripture is very limited, by there tradition. The Orthodox tend to put a lot of stock in the physical as the Roman Church does and it is for this reason they stand shoulder to shoulder with RC theology, the RC’s just define it much better.

Actually, NOT defining theology in terms of Rationalism is hardly what I would consider a deficit in Orthodox thinking. Essentially, you in the West are heirs of the scholastics, apologists who sought to establish the faith by means of reason. This came about as a means by which to answer our Muslim and Jewish detractors.

Where the process went awry is when such explanations ceased to be inter-religious dialogue and became definitions of theological belief an ontological reality. Define God, define salvation, define sin- these are all by-products of Nominalism.

You would suggest we are under-developed because we do not participate in such presumptuous katophatic (positive) statements of theology. The East saw the trap inherent in this ever-deductive approach, and have emphasized apophatic theology (identifying what God is not).

Russia’s participation in the definition of Dogma has led them to sound decidely Western and rationalistic in many ways, even priggish and Fundamentalist in certain circles (ROCOR)

But let us return to this statement of yours, that I or we are unable to define what we believe.
Quick now, friend, define love in 25 words or less……………………………………
<cue Jeopardy theme>
Right, what are you thinking about? You’re not thinking about defining it, you’re thinking about DESCRIBING IT, how it feels, what it means. You will use poetry, symbolism, and hyperbole to capture its beauty, no?

We have a wonderful description of salvation- it will not satisfy the Aristotelian in you, but I post it nonetheless

THEOSIS
The fundamental vocation and goal of each and every person is to share in the life of God. We have been created by God to live in fellowship with Him. The descent of God in the Person of Jesus Christ has made possible the human ascent to the Father through the work of the Holy Spirit. Orthodoxy believes that each Christian is involved in a movement toward God which is known as theosis or deification.
Theosis describes the spiritual pilgrimage in which each person becomes ever more perfect, ever more holy, ever more united with God. It is not a static relationship, nor does it take place only after death. On the contrary, theosis is a movement of love toward God which begins for each Christian with the rites of Baptism and which continues throughout this life, as well as the life which is to come. Salvation means liberation from sin, death, and evil. Redemption means our repossession by God. In Orthodoxy, both salvation and redemption are within the context of theosis. This rich vision of Christian life was expressed well by Saint Peter when he wrote in the early pages of his second Epistle that we are called "to become partakers of the Divine nature." It was also affirmed by Saint Basil the Great when he described man as the creature who has received the order to become a god.
These are certainly bold affirmations which must be properly understood. The Orthodox Church understands theosis as a union with the energies of God and not with the essence of God which always remains hidden and unknown. However, the experience of the Church testifies that this is a true union with God. It is also one which is not pantheistic, because in this union the divine and the human retain their unique characteristics. In this sense, Orthodoxy believes that human life reaches its fulfillment only when it becomes divine.

I hope that was not too lengthy.

OC claims ‘my’ view is narrow, well, his view is too vague and lacks understanding of Christ’s perfect work on the cross to justify the sinner. Instead of providing an Orthodox eisegesis one of the passages I provided in my OP, OC posted what he thought would prove his case, but his case leans not on the Word of God but on tradition.

Thank you.

Jason the Reformer!

On the contrary, I have pointed out scripture within the text and context of my post. You have also pointed to tradition- Reformed tradition- which interprets the scriptures you have listed differently.
Regarding exegesis of the texts- I daresay that the process of exegeting the 50 scriptures you tagged would be a task I’d not opt for, as I am not yet writing my magnus opus.

We shall, though, exegete a singular term which you use loosely and incorrectly on many occasions.
Please feel free to look up the root and implied meanings of sos and its derivations (soson, for example)- the term which we translate save/salvation/saved.
Tell me if the biblical usage is exclusive to eternal salvation, or if the term implies the fulness of Christian life.

Oh, and feel free to also look at the expression you curiously translate “born again.†{Transliterated gennao anothen, or as in John 3:7 gennithinai anothen}. A careful study of Jon 3 reveals that a man must be born from above to have the power (dunamis) to see the Kingdom of God, by which he believes (pistevon)- and not just believes as an idea, but believes as in seels all and follows.

PS> Before I finish this post I wanted to apologize to OC for the rude and unChristian like posts I’ve made this week. I have many excuses as to why I did such a thing but none of them are good enough to explain by behavior. OC, find it in your heart to forgive me? Pr 17:17 A friend loveth at all times, and a brother is born for adversity.

Indeed, Jason, many apologies to you. I hope that the wait has been worthwhile. ;)
James, a servant of God, endeavoring to please God.

PS well done on the reply.

 

[JM]

Sorry OC, I've lost the will to debate you. I've been busy with creating a dsicipleship study for new members of my church that has grown from 23 to 130 in the last couple of years. It's sucking up all of my free time right now and I haven't had much time to log on.

I just make a few points and go...

Propitiation, according to Strongs, is an "appeasing" of God's wrath for sin...the removal of wrath.

Ro 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

We are declared righteous before God due to the propitiation of our sins.

1Jo 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1Jo 4:10
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

If 'whole world' means every single person, as I DO NOT believe it does, then ALL meaning ALL have been declared righteous before God. If Jesus Christ died for the sins of the world then the world will be saved...

As the Jews at the time believed, the 'world' was used to any non-jewish person, when the N.T. speaks about Jesus dying for the 'whole world' this doesn't mean every single human being or everyone would be saved, it includes people from outside the Jewish community and faith.

Since all are not saved then Jesus could not have died for all men. OC, you asked if man can grieve the Holy Spirit, sure can. But at what point and what sin is it that we are then placed back under the wrath of God?

Hebrews 9:28, "So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." (See also 13:20; Isaiah 53:11-12.)

Mark 10:45, in accord with Revelation 5:9,does not say that Jesus came to ransom all men. It says, "For the Son of man also came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

Propitiated sins cannot be punished. Otherwise propitiation loses its meaning. To quote AV: And if Christ did die for all and not just His elect then you have people in hell right now with their sins forgiven!

You mentioned tradition, we all have them I agree, but tradition can not take the place of God's written word in which we learn His thoughts and will and then try to think them after Him. We have a saying in the Reformed camp, semper reformanda, this means we are always trying to reform our minds to the will of God and forsake all of mans traditions.

Thanks OC, but this is the best I can do for now.

jason

 

[JM]

OK OC, I have a little time to continue. Your up next.