Free Will

[MarkT]

Nobody can if God so chooses to absolutely enforces his will that we cannot resist!

But God is giving Cain a choice!

Well of course he could do well. He could listen to God. He could 'not be angry'. But his will was to do his father's desire; kill his Abel. Jesus tells us the devil was a murderer from the beginning. John 8:44 John tells us Cain was of the evil one. That means he was a devil. So by his very nature, that is being of the devil, he had murder in mind. He acted according to his nature. A thorn bush bears thistles. That's the way it is.

Remember Paul asked, 'Why does he still find fault?' In the light of Christ we know Cain was raised to kill his brother. Could it have been any other way? No. A man might look at it and say Cain had a choice but we don't look at things in human terms.


I wish you would have given the context and the chapter and verse of what Paul said, but what you are saying here is in direct opposition of how God relates to Cain in the text I have given you from Genesis. Saying that, I have yet to see you do a good exegesis of that text, so please have at it!

Well Paul said it in his letter to the Romans Ro.:9:19 I don't know what I can add to the Genesis account.

I'd say Cain didn't listen to God. Whether the theoretical choice existed is hardly worth mentioning.

Huh? Is not God pleading with Cain not to do the dastardly deed he is contemplating? If so, does not Cain have a choice to make, YES or NO?


No. God warned Cain but Cain was a murderer from the beginning, even before he killed his brother.


Oh? Who did he kill before he murdered his brother?

A murderer in his heart.

Why do you think God had no regard for Cain's offering?

That has nothing at all to do with it. Did you notice God advising Cain if “He would do well†he could overcome Satan and his temptations (in so many words.)? Why is God wasting His time talking to Cain if Cain had no choice but to kill his brother? And another unanswered question I give to you again: How in the world can Cain be guilty of killing his brother if he is compelled to do so, like the robber who forces one to fill his bag of loot at gun point?

Cain's offering wasn't righteous. In other words, it wasn't offered in God's spirit. In his spirit he felt God wasn't right; God had done him an injustice. So he took it upon himself to get even. That's my thinking. But God is just. He told Cain about sin beforehand so Cain would have no excuse. You keep saying Cain was compelled. Perhaps he was compelled by his desire.

It angered Cain didn't it? Cain thought he was doing well but God had no regard for his offering. Doesn't that tell you something about Cain? Cain was willful. Cain didn't know God. Cain didn't understand. Cain didn't know what God wanted. Cain refused to give God what God wanted. Cain was stubborn. Cain wouldn't listen to God even after God warned him sin was waiting for him. Do you think Cain ever listened to God? Cain was a rebel from birth, as John puts it, 'Cain was of the evil one', meaning the devil. John 3:12 Now I can't say there was no choice. Obviously choices exist. But we know a bad tree does not bear good fruit.


Again, it has nothing at all to do with anything, especially when we see God attempting to have Cain reject the temptation to kill his brother. Cain has a choice, either to obey God’s direct plea to him, or to reject it and go his merry way and kill his brother. It is as obvious as the lines in your hands held up for your to see!

You keep saying it has nothing to do with it but why do you think I'm writing it? God was not pleading with Cain anymore than Jesus was pleading with Judas when he said, "one of you will betray me" and Judas said, "Is it I, Master?" and Jesus said, "You have said so." And guess what! Judas betrayed him! Was Jesus giving Judas a choice when he told him beforehand he would betray him? Judas was a devil like Cain.

The event followed Cain's plan by Cain's will but it was God's will that it happened.

Therefore Cain had no choice in the matter? Like the robber who forces a person to fill his loot bag at the point of a gun, he is nevertheless still guilty of being an accomplice? Why do we not all intuitively know this in out hearts and minds, yet see the â€Âexception†of this natural law in our hearts and minds with God forcing Cain to abide by his own contemplation, especially in the light of God actually trying to talk him our of it?

I think we're going around in circles. Who is the robber in your analogy? God? The problem, as I see it, is you can't see God's purpose in anything. The LORD said, "I determined it long ago. I planned from days of old what I now bring to pass." Isa. 37:26 Do you think God's will, his plan, his purpose depends on us? Do you think God's plan falls apart depending on the decisions we make? What if Judas had decided not to betray Jesus. What would you say? 'Judas made the right decision. Good choice', 'God's purpose for Judas failed'?

God did not force Cain.


WOW! We agree for a change!

Good. At least we got that straightened out.

 

[William Putnam]

I grow weary of these exchanges, therefore I am only going to answer the last two responses of your reply:

[quote:6a68d]
The event followed Cain's plan by Cain's will but it was God's will that it happened.

Therefore Cain had no choice in the matter? Like the robber who forces a person to fill his loot bag at the point of a gun, he is nevertheless still guilty of being an accomplice? Why do we not all intuitively know this in out hearts and minds, yet see the â€Âexception†of this natural law in our hearts and minds with God forcing Cain to abide by his own contemplation, especially in the light of God actually trying to talk him our of it?

I think we're going around in circles. Who is the robber in your analogy? God? The problem, as I see it, is you can't see God's purpose in anything. The LORD said, "I determined it long ago. I planned from days of old what I now bring to pass." Isa. 37:26 Do you think God's will, his plan, his purpose depends on us? Do you think God's plan falls apart depending on the decisions we make? What if Judas had decided not to betray Jesus. What would you say? 'Judas made the right decision. Good choice', 'God's purpose for Judas failed'?[/quote:6a68d]


<SIGH!> Ah, is not the analogy obvious? But in a way, the robber is like God, IF there is no free will of choice yet remain responsible for choices we cannot choose!

Please answer the simple question to yourself (as I think we are through here): If I am forced to fill the robber’s bag, am I still responsible and guilty of being the robber’s accomplice?

[quote:6a68d]God did not force Cain.


WOW! We agree for a change!

Good. At least we got that straightened out.[/quote:6a68d]

And on that happy note, I end it here. I think it would be futile to continue on. But please consider what I have said here in reflection and good thought.

Please keep me in your prayers, as I fall short of the glory of God...

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christus Vincit! Christus Regnat! Christus Imperat!

 

[Silverchild79]

this belief was very popular in puritan society and was used to foster almost a kind of competition for pure living to demonstrate who was destined and who wasn't

unfortunately if it's all predetermined rational thought tells you that Christianity is worthless because if your not preselected then you can follow Christ your whole life through and still be dammed

if you can prove that I'm logging off and heading down to the bar...

 

[William Putnam]

this belief was very popular in puritan society and was used to foster almost a kind of competition for pure living to demonstrate who was destined and who wasn't

unfortunately if it's all predetermined rational thought tells you that Christianity is worthless because if your not preselected then you can follow Christ your whole life through and still be dammed

if you can prove that I'm logging off and heading down to the bar...

Can I join you? I take Canadian Mist over the rocks! :roll:

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+



Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realizes that it bears a very close resemblence to the first.
- Ronald Reagan

 

[Vic C.]

Nobody can if God so chooses to absolutely enforces his will that we cannot resist!

But God is giving Cain a choice!

I'm on your side on this Bill and I feel your pain... no, I really do. I've used the Genesis passage myself in the past. I won't discuss this (predestination and foreknowledge) anymore because it is tiresome.

From my limited knowledge of Protestantism (as it keeps on fissioning) Calvinism, in it’s various flavors, denies free will, therefore I bring that subject up! Unless others can correct me here, Calvinism is the only branch of Protestantism, in these various flavors, that does this.

St. Augustine had a lot to do with the reformers take on predestination. Where they differ is that Augustine's thoughts are that God preserves man's freedom to choose and Calvinism's double predestiny destroys any notion of freedom of choice.

Huh? Is not God pleading with Cain not to do the dastardly deed he is contemplating? If so, does not Cain have a choice to make, YES or NO?

YES! Adam had a similar choice to make in the Garden, did he not?

 

[William Putnam]

Vic C replied:

[quote:43902] Nobody can if God so chooses to absolutely enforces his will that we cannot resist!

But God is giving Cain a choice!

I'm on your side on this Bill and I feel your pain... no, I really do. I've used the Genesis passage myself in the past. I won't discuss this (predestination and foreknowledge) anymore because it is tiresome.[/quote:43902]

I guess I am a glutton for punishment

[quote:43902]From my limited knowledge of Protestantism (as it keeps on fissioning) Calvinism, in it’s various flavors, denies free will, therefore I bring that subject up! Unless others can correct me here, Calvinism is the only branch of Protestantism, in these various flavors, that does this.

St. Augustine had a lot to do with the reformers take on predestination. Where they differ is that Augustine's thoughts are that God preserves man's freedom to choose and Calvinism's double predestiny destroys any notion of freedom of choice.[/quote:43902]

Indeed!

And in general, St. Augustine more or less defines the Catholic position on the subject, which is to say, the Catholic Church teaches predestination!

But not the “double-predestination†Calvanistic view, as you say.

[quote:43902]Huh? Is not God pleading with Cain not to do the dastardly deed he is contemplating? If so, does not Cain have a choice to make, YES or NO?

YES! Adam had a similar choice to make in the Garden, did he not?[/quote:43902]

Indeed again! He and Eve both!

And I think I mentioned that already in this thread, if memory does not fail me.

Thanks for the reply Vic!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+



A piece of spaghetti or a military unit can only be led from the front end.
George S. Patton