From Adam to Moses

[BigSodaExposer]

People did die and there was evil in the land. But there was no law.

Is the law of sin and death then almost like a karmic principle that applies to all by default?

 

[clark thompson]

The law never saved anyone just showed that they needed a Savior, all are saved by their faith in the Word, which became flesh, Jesus.

 

[Drew]

People did die and there was evil in the land. But there was no law.

Is the law of sin and death then almost like a karmic principle that applies to all by default?

Interesting question. I believe that in the context of Romans, especially the bit in Romans 7 where Paul analyzes what he calls the "law of sin and death", he is referring very specifically to the Law of Moses, the Torah.

However, I suspect that if we could dig up Paul, he might well say that any codified set of "rules" for living will have the same sinister effect on the person who tries to follow it as the Torah had upon even the most earnest and well-intentioned Jew.

 

[jocor]

Interesting question. I believe that in the context of Romans, especially the bit in Romans 7 where Paul analyzes what he calls the "law of sin and death", he is referring very specifically to the Law of Moses, the Torah.

Paul was not referring to the Law of Moses. He was referring to the Law of Sin as opposed to the Law of God (YHWH) (Romans 7:25). It is a principle whereby if one sins by breaking the Law of YHWH, they are repaid with death. Yeshua freed us from the consequences of this principle, not from the Law of YHWH.

 

[Drew]

Paul was not referring to the Law of Moses. He was referring to the Law of Sin as opposed to the Law of God (YHWH) (Romans 7:25). It is a principle whereby if one sins by breaking the Law of YHWH, they are repaid with death. Yeshua freed us from the consequences of this principle, not from the Law of YHWH.

I think it is quite clear Paul is indeed talking about the Law of Moses:

What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "You shall not covet."8But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, ...

It is the Torah - the Law of Moses - that contains the commandment "You shall not covet". Paul's argument then proceeds seamlessly to argue that the Law of Moses, strangely, leads to sin and death.

 

[Obadiah]

Please be aware that since this thread was started new guidelines came into effect in this forum. They can (and should) be read here. One of them requires that all posts "...either opposing or adding additional information should include references to specific supportive scripture relevant to the thread..." This means an actual chapter, verse, and version citation must be included. Refernces to entire chapters do not meet this requirement unless you are going to show how each individual verse in that chapter applies to your point. Also, when quoting scripture, the guidelines require that you cite the chapter and verse(s) reference as well as federal copyright law requires that you also include the version you are quoting (NIV, NASB, etc.)

 

[jocor]

I think it is quite clear Paul is indeed talking about the Law of Moses:

What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "You shall not covet."8But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, ...

It is the Torah - the Law of Moses - that contains the commandment "You shall not covet". Paul's argument then proceeds seamlessly to argue that the Law of Moses, strangely, leads to sin and death.

You are correct that Romans 7:7-8 is referring to the Law of Moses, but the phrase “the Law of Sin” does not. It is “another law” (Romans 7:23):

Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Yeshua Messiah our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.​

Paul’s desire was to obey the Law of God which, in reality, is the Law of Moses/Torah. Yet, his flesh in his unconverted state (which is what he is portraying in his example) cannot obey it. His weak flesh cannot subject itself to Torah.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Messiah, he is none of his.​

Once the carnal man who cannot be subject to the Law receives the indwelling Holy Spirit, he can obey Torah. The Spirit of YHWH has power over the flesh so that the spiritual man living under the New Covenant will not only fulfill the righteousness requirements of Torah (Romans 8:4), but the Holy Spirit will cause him to obey it.

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.​

 

[Drew]

Paul’s desire was to obey the Law of God which, in reality, is the Law of Moses/Torah. Yet, his flesh in his unconverted state (which is what he is portraying in his example) cannot obey it. His weak flesh cannot subject itself to Torah.

First, the points of agreement. I agree wholeheartedly with your position that this text describes an "unconverted" person. As I suspect you are aware, probably most evangelicals think Paul is describing the struggles of a Christian. I suspect we agree that this really does not make sense when one analyzes the argument carefully. I also agree that Paul draws a distinction between the Torah and the "law of sin and death". As you rightly point out:

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

However, I suspect you may not agree with the following: I believe that Paul's argument is that the Law of Moses functions to arouse or empower this law of sin and death. This may seem strange - why would God give Israel a Torah that actually empowers and strengthens this sinister "second" law of sin and death? Following the thinking of theologian NT Wright, I believe there is an explanation for this strange state of affairs. But I will get into that in a later post.

 

[childeye]

I believe Romans 7:23 is referring to a law, much like how the term law is used to describe forces in physics, the law of relativity for example. In this instance however, Paul is describing spiritual forces that move men in the moral/immoral purview. It is interesting to note that the laws of Moses are not of faith. Galatians 3:12. Romans 14:23.

 

[Seabass]

People did die and there was evil in the land. But there was no law.

Is the law of sin and death then almost like a karmic principle that applies to all by default?

How do you reach the conclusion "but there was no law" in the time period between Adam and Moses?

 

[Drew]

How do you reach the conclusion "but there was no law" in the time period between Adam and Moses?

Paul says it clearly in Romans 5 and I would have thought it would otherwise be obvious - the Law of Moses was only delivered at Mount Sinai. Are you perhaps thinking that miscellaneous "commandments" issued by God prior to this form sort of "law". I think that would be a hard case to make, but perhaps someone will have something to say about this.

 

[Seabass]

Paul says it clearly in Romans 5 and I would have thought it would otherwise be obvious - the Law of Moses was only delivered at Mount Sinai. Are you perhaps thinking that miscellaneous "commandments" issued by God prior to this form sort of "law". I think that would be a hard case to make, but perhaps someone will have something to say about this.

Hi,

Maybe I misunderstand what the OP was saying. There was no law of Moses between Adam and Moses but there was law (Patriarchal law) that did exist from Adam to Moses.

Rom 5:13 "(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

1 Jn 3:4 "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

John says sin is transgression of the law and Rom 5:13 says 'for until the law (law of Moses) sin was in the world" that means for sin to be in the world between Adam and Moses implies there was a law that existed.

 

[jocor]

First, the points of agreement. I agree wholeheartedly with your position that this text describes an "unconverted" person. As I suspect you are aware, probably most evangelicals think Paul is describing the struggles of a Christian. I suspect we agree that this really does not make sense when one analyzes the argument carefully. I also agree that Paul draws a distinction between the Torah and the "law of sin and death". As you rightly point out:

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

I'm glad we agree.

However, I suspect you may not agree with the following: I believe that Paul's argument is that the Law of Moses functions to arouse or empower this law of sin and death. This may seem strange - why would God give Israel a Torah that actually empowers and strengthens this sinister "second" law of sin and death? Following the thinking of theologian NT Wright, I believe there is an explanation for this strange state of affairs. But I will get into that in a later post.

I agree with this as well, but only for a carnal man. A man filled with the Holy Spirit who keeps Torah cannot arouse or empower the law of sin and death because he is freed from it through Messiah (Romans 8:2).

 

[Drew]

I'm glad we agree.....I agree with this as well, but only for a carnal man.

We seem to be in violent agreement about all this stuff. Glad to not be alone on this......

 

[jocor]

We seem to be in violent agreement about all this stuff. Glad to not be alone on this......

That's quite a miracle since I am a non-violent man!

 

[eddif]

Acts 9:17
And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 9:20
And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

Paul seems to have the Holy Spirit from the beginning. Being empowered to preach straight away.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Under grace the dominion of sin is gone. The sin in life is a reminder of the body of death we live in, but the mind of Christ is greater.

I John 3:20
For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

eddif