Gary - Whats your point on Islam atrocity criticism?

[Soma-Sight]

You are correct that there are atrocities in the Islamic Faith.

Some you may be "stretching" the Truth on but it is True that some bad things went down with the PROPHET Muhamad and his posse.

But what is the point?

The Biblical Heros, Prophets, and leaders of Israel in the OT did the SAME STUFF. The old "read it in context" is a weak argument which Islam could say against your criticism!!!

Here is a small list of some popular Biblical atrocities which are SO SIMILAR to the atrocities of Islam that it is hard to tell the difference!

Slaughter Of Innocents

"And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain." (Deuteronomy 2:34)

"And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Hesbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities we took for a prey to ourselves." (Deuteronomy 3:6-7)

Slay Old And Young


"And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and woman: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house." (Ezekiel 9:5-6)

Raping And Killing

"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:15-16)

Kill Man, Woman, Infant

"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." (I Samuel 15:2-3)

God Slaughters Negroes

So the LORD smote the Ethiopians before Asa, and before Judah; and the Ethiopians fled. (II Chronicles 14:12)

Selling daughter


Exodus 21:7. "And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go
out as the menservants do."

King David and Torture!!!!!

2 Samuel 12:31. "And he brought forth the people that were therein, and put them under saws, and under harrows of iron, and under axes of iron, and made them pass through the brickkiln: and thus did he unto all the cities of the children of Ammon. So David and all the people returned unto Jerusalem."

 

[Soma-Sight]

Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian


7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

 

[Gary]

Top Signs You're a New Age Fundy

You are a New Age Fundy when .... you don't understand nor do you believe the Bible; you think Muhammad is someone to admire; you have trouble distinguishing between the actions of Muhammad (which are not questioned at all in the Quran) and the actions and consequences of some of the "heroes" in the OT.



P.S. What a compliment... to recognize that I am a Fundamentalist Christian!

 

[Soma-Sight]

Top Signs You're a New Age Fundy

You are a New Age Fundy when .... you don't understand nor do you believe the Bible; you think Muhammad is someone to admire; you have trouble distinguishing between the actions of Muhammad (which are not questioned at all in the Quran) and the actions and consequences of some of the "heroes" in the OT.



P.S. What a compliment... to recognize that I am a Fundamentalist Christian!

Fair enough Gary.

That still doesnt answer the specific counts of rape, child murder, and genocide in the OT as being any different than Islamic atrocities?

 

[Gary]

I wonder if SomaSite will ever understand?

SomaSite, I will go very slowly so that you can follow.

(1) Firstly, if anyone claims to be Christian and murders or commits some terrible crime, how can that that person be following our Lord Jesus Christ? There is nothing in Jesus' teaching or actions which condone such actions.

(2) Muslims who commit violence or terrorism or murder those who oppose Islam find their justification and example in the actions and words of Muhammad in the Quran and the Hadith.

Understand so far?

(3) Now let's turn to the OT. The issue here is God's holiness. Take the Canaanites as an example.

Even hundreds of years before the invasion of Canaan, God had told Abraham that the sins of the people living in the land had not reached its limit, but when the inhabitants had defiled the land to its limit, the land was going to "throw them up." In fact, God later warned the nation of Israel to be careful in not repeating the sins of the previous people, otherwise the land was going to throw them up too. So we see that God is using Israel as an instrument of His justice to purge the land of its sinfulness and later in history God used other nations like the Assyrians and the Babylonians as His instruments to cleanse the land by destroying the people of Israel for their sinfulness. -source-

(4) This is so different to Muhammad. When you study Muhammad's life and the wars and the killing and the murder, you NEVER read anything about Gods' holiness or God's abhorrence to sin..... You always see that Muhammad was after booty, looting, slaves, women... and spreading the rule of his tribe.

(5) In the OT, any divine command was against a SPECIFIC city, a SPECIFIC people, at a SPECIFIC time... for a SPECIFIC purpose. As the OT unfolds, we see NO general command to the Hebrews to go out and attack other nations.

(6) Again, this is unlike the Quran. There are GENERAL commands to go out and kill and destroy ANYONE who opposes Muhammad and Islam. Those commandments are still in force today. Switch on your TV....

Are you starting to get the picture?

 

[Gary]

SomoSite gets an OT lesson... again

Teaching SomoSite how to read and understand the Bible

Slaughter Of Innocents
"And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain." (Deuteronomy 2:34)
"And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Hesbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities we took for a prey to ourselves." (Deuteronomy 3:6-7)

READ and LEARN: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qamorite.html

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Slay Old And Young
"And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and woman: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house." (Ezekiel 9:5-6)

READ and LEARN: Not all were killed. Those with the mark were not killed. Do you have any idea why the rest were killed? Also, were they ACTUALLY slain or was/is this a vision? Any ideas?

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Raping And Killing
"Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:15-16)

DUH! So Isaiah prophecied about what would happen... what is your issue? (SomoSite, you really need to buy yourself a Study Bible!) Isaiah foretold what the Medes would do.

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Kill Man, Woman, Infant
"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." (I Samuel 15:2-3)

READ and LEARN: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/rbutcher1.html

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God Slaughters Negroes
So the LORD smote the Ethiopians before Asa, and before Judah; and the Ethiopians fled. (II Chronicles 14:12)

DUH! READ the verses before these ones. Try 2 Chronicles 14:9-11 :D

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Selling daughter
Exodus 21:7. "And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do."

Do you have any ideas what it meant to be a "maidservant"? Why would a man do this? Who would he "sell" his daughter to?

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King David and Torture
2 Samuel 12:31. "And he brought forth the people that were therein, and put them under saws, and under harrows of iron, and under axes of iron, and made them pass through the brickkiln: and thus did he unto all the cities of the children of Ammon. So David and all the people returned unto Jerusalem."

Even a bigger DUH. What does this actually mean? Was it hard labor or torture? To find out, read 1 Chronicles 20:3 which describes (further) the same incident.

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:D :D :D :D

 

[Soma-Sight]

Gary and his "thinktank".....

Aye Carumba.

I have read that stuff before and it is shoddy at best on most points.

But once again.... Who cares?!?!

I was born in a Christian family, attend a Christian University, and pretty much know only people from the evangelical camp in some denom one way or the other.

I should just get on the bandwagon and proclaim that Islam is a Satanic religion and be done with it right?

The Bible can justify the atrocities of KILLING BABIES somehow or another so just accept it!

Of course the Muslim arguments using the same logic are invalid???? :roll:

lol....

:angel: [/b]

 

[Soma-Sight]

[2:111] Some have said, "No one will enter Paradise except Jews or Christians!" SUCH IS THEIR WISHFUL THINKING. Say, "Show us your proof, if you are right."

[2:112] Indeed, those who submit themselves absolutely to GOD alone, while leading a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord; they have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.

[2:113] The Jews said, "THE CHRISTIANS HAVE NO BASIS," while the Christians said, "THE JEWS HAVE NO BASIS." Yet, both of them read the scripture. Such are the utterances of those who possess no knowledge. GOD will judge them on the Day of Resurrection, regarding their disputes.

 

[Gary]

Teaching SomoSite about Islam and his hero Muhammad

SomoSite: Gary and his "thinktank"..... Aye Carumba. I have read that stuff before and it is shoddy at best on most points.

Gary: I have read a lot of what Glenn Miller has written. Compared to the drivel you copy-n-paste.... Yes, he is a thinker.

SomoSite: But once again.... Who cares?!?!

Gary: Me and many other Christians. P.S. You have NEVER shown that Glenn Miller's material is "shoddy". I think you are delusional.

SomoSite: I was born in a Christian family, attend a Christian University, and pretty much know only people from the evangelical camp in some denom one way or the other.

Gary: Who cares? YOU claimed to know many people from other faiths... so which is it now?

SomoSite: I should just get on the bandwagon and proclaim that Islam is a Satanic religion and be done with it right?

Gary: Most people (like you) know very little about Islam. They know even less (like you) about Muhammad. Why not base your opinion on facts? Read the Quran and the Hadith for yourself.

:D :D

 

[Gary]

[2:111] Some have said, "No one will enter Paradise except Jews or Christians!" SUCH IS THEIR WISHFUL THINKING. Say, "Show us your proof, if you are right."
[2:112] Indeed, those who submit themselves absolutely to GOD alone, while leading a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord; they have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
[2:113] The Jews said, "THE CHRISTIANS HAVE NO BASIS," while the Christians said, "THE JEWS HAVE NO BASIS." Yet, both of them read the scripture. Such are the utterances of those who possess no knowledge. GOD will judge them on the Day of Resurrection, regarding their disputes.

Like you, poor old Muhammad had trouble understanding both the Old Testament and the New Testament. His Jewish wives confused him. I think he spent too much time trying to satisfy all 9 (or is the 11?) wives and his concubines and slaves. The Hadith say that Muhammad "visited" them all at night!!

Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 1, Book 5, Number 268:
Narrated Qatada:
Anas bin Malik said, "The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and night and they were eleven in number." I asked Anas, "Had the Prophet the strength for it?" Anas replied, "We used to say that the Prophet was given the strength of thirty (men)." And Sa'id said on the authority of Qatada that Anas had told him about nine wives only (not eleven).

Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 1, Book 5, Number 267:
Narrated Muhammad bin Al-Muntathir:
on the authority of his father that he had asked 'Aisha (about the Hadith of Ibn 'Umar). She said, "May Allah be Merciful to Abu 'Abdur-Rahman. I used to put scent on Allah's Apostle and he used to go round his wives, and in the morning he assumed the Ihram, and the fragrance of scent was still coming out from his body."

Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 1, Book 5, Number 270:
Narrated Muhammad bin Al-Muntathir:
on the authority of his father that he had asked 'Aisha about the saying of Ibn 'Umar(i.e. he did not like to be a Muhrim while the smell of scent was still coming from his body). 'Aisha said, "I scented Allah's Apostle and he went round (had sexual intercourse with) all his wives, and in the morning he was Muhrim (after taking a bath)."

Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 7, Book 62, Number 5:
Narrated 'Ata:
We presented ourselves along with Ibn 'Abbas at the funeral procession of Maimuna at a place called Sarif. Ibn 'Abbas said, "This is the wife of the Prophet so when you lift her bier, do not Jerk it or shake it much, but walk smoothly because the Prophet had nine wives and he used to observe the night turns with eight of them, and for one of them there was no night turn."

Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 7, Book 62, Number 6:
Narrated Anas:
The Prophet I used to go round (have sexual relations with) all his wives in one night, and he had nine wives.

Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 7, Book 62, Number 142:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
The Prophet used to pass by (have sexual relation with) all his wives in one night, and at that time he had nine wives.

:o Quite a stud! :o

 

[Gary]

[2:111] Some have said, "No one will enter Paradise except Jews or Christians!" SUCH IS THEIR WISHFUL THINKING. Say, "Show us your proof, if you are right."
[2:112] Indeed, those who submit themselves absolutely to GOD alone, while leading a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord; they have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
[2:113] The Jews said, "THE CHRISTIANS HAVE NO BASIS," while the Christians said, "THE JEWS HAVE NO BASIS." Yet, both of them read the scripture. Such are the utterances of those who possess no knowledge. GOD will judge them on the Day of Resurrection, regarding their disputes.

Like you, poor old Muhammad had trouble understanding both the Old Testament and the New Testament.

Muhammad himself is commanded to consult the previous Scripture if he has any doubt regarding the Quran’s veracity:

If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt. S. 10:94 Y. Ali

This presupposes that the Bible is the criterion over the Quran, and therefore implies that the Bible must determine whether the Quran is true or not, what parts can be believed and which should not be accepted etc.

This therefore means that every time that the Quran contradicts the instructions and prohibitions of the Holy Bible, then the Quran must be rejected.

Read more: -here-

:wink: :wink:

 

[Soma-Sight]

Just curious?

Gary did you grow up in the mid east or have you ever been subjected to mid east culture or are you a red blooded WASP like me?

Is anyone in your family in Islam or a descendant of Muslim believers?

Or are you a WASP? (White Anglo Saxon Protestant)?? lol...

If this is true. I wonder if you think any bias exists in your quran criticism?

 

[Gary]

I was "born" a Roman Catholic, turned agnostic and then into a hardened atheist before I was 20. I was atheist for many, many years. I have dabbled with several religions... Taoism, read about Wiccan, studied Buddhism. After I came to know the Lord (Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour) I studied comparative religions; focussing on Judaism and Islam. I have also gone back and studied Roman Catholicism. However, my theology is Reformed. You call it "Evangelical" or "Fundamentalist"... that is an American term and is not strictly true. Thessalonian thinks anyone who is not Roman Catholic is Protestant! I consider "Reformed Theology" to be broad enough to accommodate many non-Roman Catholic denominations and also defined enough to exclude most of the modern day New Age "I love Jesus" churches. Besides, Reformed Theology is well documented with some of the most comprehensive and Biblically-sound creeds and confessions. Read this, it is one of the best books to describe (Reformed) historical Christian beliefs:
http://www.geocities.com/gary_bee_za/packer/index.html

I live amongst Roman Catholics (although several of my family have also converted to Reformed Theology denominations) and in a community which has many Muslims. Several friends are Muslims and Muslim-converts to Christianity. Culturally, we live in one of the most mixed cultures in the world. Hindus, atheists, Christians, Jews... even the have Mormon, JW and SDA cults!

Many of my friends are Jews and I have visited the middle east... in fact, travelled to many different parts of the world.

So if you were attempting to put me in a box... I guess you failed! I was born in Africa. I consider myself African.

 

[Soma-Sight]

I was "born" a Roman Catholic, turned agnostic and then into a hardened atheist before I was 20. I was atheist for many, many years. I have dabbled with several religions... Taoism, read about Wiccan, studied Buddhism. After I came to know the Lord (Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour) I studied comparative religions; focussing on Judaism and Islam. I have also gone back and studied Roman Catholicism. However, my theology is Reformed. You call it "Evangelical" or "Fundamentalist"... that is an American term and is not strictly true. Thessalonian thinks anyone who is not Roman Catholic is Protestant! I consider "Reformed Theology" to be broad enough to accommodate many non-Roman Catholic denominations and also defined enough to exclude most of the modern day New Age "I love Jesus" churches. Besides, Reformed Theology is well documented with some of the most comprehensive and Biblically-sound creeds and confessions. Read this, it is one of the best books to describe (Reformed) historical Christian beliefs:
http://www.geocities.com/gary_bee_za/packer/index.html

I live amongst Roman Catholics (although several of my family have also converted to Reformed Theology denominations) and in a community which has many Muslims. Several friends are Muslims and Muslim-converts to Christianity. Culturally, we live in one of the most mixed cultures in the world. Hindus, atheists, Christians, Jews... even the have Mormon, JW and SDA cults!

Many of my friends are Jews and I have visited the middle east... in fact, travelled to many different parts of the world.

So if you were attempting to put me in a box... I guess you failed! I was born in Africa. I consider myself African.

Wow.

That is pretty impressive.

On judgement day you will have all the "proof" you need to support your Faith in Jesus as you see Him in the "Reformed" light.

I consider "Reformed Theology" to be broad enough to accommodate many non-Roman Catholic denominations and also defined enough to exclude most of the modern day New Age "I love Jesus" churches.

I am not sure how many "New Age" Churches there really are. Most "New Age" folk are individuals who are introverted in nature and seek spirituality through personal introspection and esoteric methods and merely feel a "lack" in group minded mega Churches.

Universalism of course you would condiser "New Age" although many argue its beginnings at the time of Christ's ministry.

I just dont get how you can support eternal torment doctrine even after all your study of the original languages of the Bible? But that is another story.... :wink: