Genesis 1/Souls

[Prince]

Funny how your sources use the words "Perhaps", yet you are so bold...

Tell me teacher, is Abraham Jacob's biological father?

Gen 32:9 And Jacob said, O God of my father Abraham

Who is Hobab? It was my understanding that Hobab was the Father in Law of Moses?....

Judges 4:11 Now Heber the Kenite, which was of the children of Hobab the father in law of Moses, had severed himself from the Kenites, and pitched his tent unto the plain of Zaanaim, which is by Kedesh.


You like Strongs...
2246. Chobab
from 2245; cherished; Chobab, father-in-law of Moses:--Hobab.

Which brings us back to...
Numbers 10:29 And Moses said unto Hobab, the son of Raguel the Midianite, Moses' father in law, We are journeying unto the place of which the LORD said, I will give it you: come thou with us, and we will do thee good: for the LORD hath spoken good concerning Israel.

Your mistake lies in the word father in Exodus 2. Common mistake my friend, don't sweat it.

Funny how your sources use the words "Perhaps", yet you are so bold...

Like me I believe what I believe but I am not here to force by beliefs on anyone "Perhaps" that is is the best road to take..

Tell me teacher, is Abraham Jacob's biological father?

Im not a teacher im a student. NO - Abraham is the biological father of Isaac - Isaac is the biological father of Jacob. The wrod "father" can be used in both manners to represent father or grandfather or great grandfather.

Who is Hobab? It was my understanding that Hobab was the Father in Law of Moses?....

Judges 4:11 "Now Heber the Kenite, which was of the children of Hobab the father in law of Moses, had severed himself from the Kenites, and pitched his tent unto the plain of Zaanaim, which is by Kedesh."

This "Heber" that is called a "Kenite", is a great grandson of "Moses' father in law". The reason that Heber is called a "Kenite" is because his great grandfather had lived in the land of the Kenites. This is the same situation that exist when the Kenites are called Jews, because they live in Judea with Judah, and in time became identified with Judah by geographic location. We know this from Numbers 10:29.

Numbers 10:29 "And Moses said unto Hobab [Heber's grandfather], the son of Raguel the Midianite, Moses' father in law,,,"

The point to be brought out is that Kenites are not Midianites, for Midianites are from their father Midian who was the son of Abraham, by his second wife Keturah as recorded in Genesis 25:1, 2

Genesis 25:1 Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah."

Genesis 25:2 "And she bare him Simran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah."

Your mistake lies in the word father in Exodus 2. Common mistake my friend, don't sweat it

You are certainly entitled to think. BUt I think the notes I left you address everything you came up with and proved you to be in error

Exodus 2:16 "Now the priest of Midian had seven daughters: and they come and drew water, and filled the troughs to water their father's flock."

Not only was Moses father in law a son of the lineage of Midian, but he was a priest of the Midianites in that area. To be a priest in the lineage of one of Abraham's sons, your lineage also had to be pure. Later in the book of Exodus we will see that Aaron was appointed to be the priest of the Israelites, of the tribe of Levi, tells us that Aaron's lineage was also pure as to his pedigree. We get even more details of this Midian priest, the father of these seven daughters from Numbers 10:29; "And Moses said unto Hobab, the son of Raguel the Midianite, Moses' father in law, ..." So this even identifies this priest of Midian by name, "Raguel". This old priest had seven daughter, with no sons, but he is about to get a son in the family.

In our land today, many live in one state, say Washington state, and call themselves Washingtonians, yet they are still Americans. Others may live in another state with call them by the state their are living in, yet they are all Americans. Yet at the same time, while I call myself a Norwegian, or you say an Irishmen by our forefathers, we are all still proud to say we are Americans. Raguel, this Midianite priest lived in the land of the Kenites, but by lineage he was from the seed of Abraham and Midian, and of the same priesthood that Abraham taught in his household to his sons, and their sons; of the teaching of the true God, YHVH.

This Midian priest moved to the land of the Kenites, near this sacred mountain, and that is why he is referred to as a Kenite. A five year old child knows who his mommy and daddy are, and this Midian priest Reuel, or Requel knows who his father was and it was not of the lineage of any Kenite. Don't let some one verse preacher confuse you on this matter. This Midian priest had seven daughters, and their duty was to draw the water daily at this well, and water the flock of their father's sheep. These girls are at the well troughs early and getting ready to water their sheep.

Exodus 2:17 "And the shepherds came and drove them away: but Moses stood up and helped them, and watered their flock."

The shepherds at that well were Kenites, and it was their land and there well. Remember that the girls and their family were strangers in this Kenite land, and they were supposed to wait until the others flocks were watered first. Moses was there resting at the well, and he saw what these other shepherds had done to the girls, and he stepped in to run the other shepherds off. Then he took charge and watered the girls sheep by himself. Moses grew up in the household of the Egyptian Pharaoh, and he knew the methods of the Egyptian army. He knew how to defend himself and to take charge of a situation.

Exodus 2:18 "And when they came to Reuel [Reguel- from Numbers 29:10] their father, he said, How is it that ye are come so soon to day?"

"Reuel" means "friend of Ya", friend of God in the Hebrew. We will see in the next chapter that he was known also by the title of "Jethro", which in the Hebrew tongue means "his excellence" [# 3503 in Strong's Hebrew dictionary], which is a fitting title to address a Midian priest. This task usually takes most of the day, requiring that they wait their turn, and then water all the sheep. Yet here these girls are back in the early part of the day.

 

[stovebolts]

Im not a teacher im a student. NO - Abraham is the biological father of Isaac - Isaac is the biological father of Jacob. The wrod "father" can be used in both manners to represent father or grandfather or great grandfather.

Well, if you are not a teacher... While father can, and certainly is used as grandfather, it is normally used as the head of a house, and when I say house, I am not talking about brick and mortar, nor 2x4. For instance and by way of simplistic example, in the house of Jacob, are 12 tribes. Within the House of Joseph, there are two... Later in History, you have two major houses in opposition of each other. They are the house of Judah, and the house of Israel, though they still fall within the house of Jacob. I do hope that you caught that the House of Israel... Regardless, they all fall under the house of Abraham within the proper context. Jesus even says, "In my Fathers house, which of course would include the House of Abraham."

It is within this context that Jacob states, "My father Abraham". He is not speaking in terms of his grandfather. Later the Jews even tell Jesus that Abraham is their father...

And it is within this context that Reuel is the father of Jethro's 7 daughters. Let me ask you, have you even tried to view Exodus 2 and 3 within this light, or do you reject it without thought?

Judges 4:11 "Now Heber the Kenite, which was of the children of Hobab the father in law of Moses, had severed himself from the Kenites, and pitched his tent unto the plain of Zaanaim, which is by Kedesh."

This "Heber" that is called a "Kenite", is a great grandson of "Moses' father in law". The reason that Heber is called a "Kenite" is because his great grandfather had lived in the land of the Kenites. This is the same situation that exist when the Kenites are called Jews, because they live in Judea with Judah, and in time became identified with Judah by geographic location. We know this from Numbers 10:29.

Nice... but you've failed to address the topic... Who's Hobab, not Heber.
Clearly, this passage teaches us that Hobab is the father in law of Moses. Would you care to address this, as it appears abundently straightforward and clear. Almost as if you'd have to be taught differently that Hobab was not the father in law of Moses.

Just so we're clear, let me post the snipit I'm referring to.
of Hobab the father in law of Moses

And I find it odd that you use Strongs as a major basis of Authority, yet you disagree with Strong's on this matter. Let me post one more time what Strongs has to say. Mind you, not that I user Strong's as my basis for authority, but because I know you do.

from 2245; cherished; Chobab, father-in-law of Moses:--Hobab.

"Reuel" means "friend of Ya", friend of God in the Hebrew. We will see in the next chapter that he was known also by the title of "Jethro", which in the Hebrew tongue means "his excellence" [# 3503 in Strong's Hebrew dictionary], which is a fitting title to address a Midian priest. This task usually takes most of the day, requiring that they wait their turn, and then water all the sheep. Yet here these girls are back in the early part of the day.

So let's see.. Reuel is Jethro is Hobab.... and I'm my own grandpa

Numbers 10:29 And Moses said unto Hobab, the son of Raguel the Midianite, Moses' father in law, We are journeying unto the place of which the LORD said, I will give it you: come thou with us, and we will do thee good: for the LORD hath spoken good concerning Israel.

Do you disagree that Hobab is the son of Reuel? (You did state, to which I agree, that Reuel and Raguel are the same person)

Some may ask why I am so persistent in arguing this point... It is because this is the simpler to understand, and if we can't understand the simple things in scripture... well, then, I just don't want to be the builder of that house.

Speaking of house... I have a long weekend and may not get back to this until early next week. Rest assured, I will check on this thread.

Grace and Peace Prince. I hope you have a fantastic Easter and Praise God my friend and Brother in Christ, that Jesus is risin, and is Lord.

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Prince,
I just wanted you to know that I made two last minute edit's to expand my thoughts on "House" and on Reul / Reguel.

I did not delete or change anything... Just expanded a small bit.

Again Brother, I gotta run. It's been fun.

 

[Prince]

Well, if you are not a teacher... While father can, and certainly is used as grandfather, it is normally used as the head of a house, and when I say house, I am not talking about brick and mortar, nor 2x4. For instance and by way of simplistic example, in the house of Jacob, are 12 tribes. Within the House of Joseph, there are two... Later in History, you have two major houses in opposition of each other. They are the house of Judah, and the house of Israel. Regardless, they all fall under the house of Abraham within the proper context. Jesus even says, "In my Fathers house..."

It is within this context that Jacob states, "My father Abraham". He is not speaking in terms of his grandfather. Later the Jews even tell Jesus that Abraham is their father...

And it is within this context that Reuel is the father of Jethro's 7 daughters. Let me ask you, have you even tried to view Exodus 2 and 3 within this light, or do you reject it without thought?




Nice... but you've failed to address the topic... Who's Hobab, not Heber.
Clearly, this passage teaches us that Hobab is the father in law of Moses. Would you care to address this, as it appears abundently straightforward and clear. Almost as if you'd have to be taught differently that Hobab was not the father in law of Moses.

Just so we're clear, let me post the snipit I'm referring to.
of Hobab the father in law of Moses

And I find it odd that you use Strongs as a major basis of Authority, yet you disagree with Strong's on this matter. Let me post one more time what Strongs has to say. Mind you, not that I user Strong's as my basis for authority, but because I know you do.

from 2245; cherished; Chobab, father-in-law of Moses:--Hobab.



So let's see.. Reuel is Jethro is Hobab.... and I'm my own grandpa

Numbers 10:29 And Moses said unto Hobab, the son of Raguel the Midianite, Moses' father in law, We are journeying unto the place of which the LORD said, I will give it you: come thou with us, and we will do thee good: for the LORD hath spoken good concerning Israel.

Do you disagree that Hobab is the son of Reuel?

Some may ask why I am so persistent in arguing this point... It is because this is the simpler to understand, and if we can't understand the simple things in scripture... well, then, I just don't want to be the builder of that house.

Speaking of house... I have a long weekend and may not get back to this until early next week. Rest assured, I will check on this thread.

Grace and Peace Prince. I hope you have a fantastic Easter and Praise God my friend and Brother in Christ, that Jesus is risin, and is Lord.

Do you disagree that Hobab is the son of Reuel?

I will respond to your entire post, but I had a quick question/statement.

Numbers 10:29 And Moses said unto Hobab, the son of Raguel the Midianite, Moses' father in law

You believe Hobab is the son of Reuel correct?

Genesis 36:17 "And these are the sons of Reuel Esau's son; duke Nahath, duke Zerah, duke Shammah, duke Mizzah: these are the dukes that came of Reuel in the land of Edom; these are the sons of Bashemath Esau's wife."

These are the sons of Reuel, do you see Hobab mentioned?

Why not?

 

[Prince]

Hi Prince,
I just wanted you to know that I made two last minute edit's to expand my thoughts on "House" and on Reul / Reguel.

I did not delete or change anything... Just expanded a small bit.

Again Brother, I gotta run. It's been fun.

No worries I will study and review until you return.

 

[stovebolts]

I will respond to your entire post, but I had a quick question/statement.

Numbers 10:29 And Moses said unto Hobab, the son of Raguel the Midianite, Moses' father in law

You believe Hobab is the son of Reuel correct?

Genesis 36:17 "And these are the sons of Reuel Esau's son; duke Nahath, duke Zerah, duke Shammah, duke Mizzah: these are the dukes that came of Reuel in the land of Edom; these are the sons of Bashemath Esau's wife."

These are the sons of Reuel, do you see Hobab mentioned?

Why not?

Hi Prince,
Well, I actually have a bit of time this morning, and I will also have a bit of time Saturday morning (up until around 9 am)

This is a very productive study, and it's posts like the one above that really help to clear things up.

You know, we are all learning here and none of us have everything "nailed", and this is why we can all learn, together.

Genesis 36:17 "And these are the sons of Reuel Esau's son

The Reuel in Genesis 36, is not the same Reuel in Exodus or Numbers. Let me explain rather quickly.

First off, there is a span of around 450-475 years between Esau's son Reuel, and the Reuel that came from Abraham and Keturah. Remember, after Jacob entered Egypt, they were there for about 430 years before Moses came on the scene.

This brings me to the second part.
Abraham and Sarah had Isaac and Ishmael.
Abraham and Keturah Genesis 25:2 "And she bare him Simran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah."

Isaac had Jacob and Esau
Jacob had the 12 tribes who went into Egypt.

As you've rightly mentioned earlier, the Reuel of Exodus and Numbers comes from Abraham and Keturah, not from Esau, who came from Isaac.

Please let me know if this is acceptable for you, and if not, I can poke around and give you the scriptures that support the above geneologies.

We can all have misunderstoods... I've had mine for sure. With this in mind...

The word is simple and does not require a lengthy explanation. All that is required is a working understanding of the culture. Let me explain.

17 And the shepherds came and drove them away: but Moses stood up and helped them, and watered their flock.
18 And when they came to Reuel their father, he said, How is it that ye are come so soon to day? (KJV)

Reuel their father, is not to be read as their biological father. It is to be read in the same manner that Abraham is Jacob's father. (Gen 32:9)

Exod 3:1
1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian:

Simply put, Jethro is the biological father of the 7 daughters, and Jethro's biological father is Reuel.

Now then, you are a student of the Bible, so you know that at specific events in ones life, one is given a new name. We see this clearly with Abram / Abraham and we see it clearly with Jacob / Israel. I trust you understand at what point they are given their new names.

With an understanding on the internal change that took place when both Abram and Jacob recieved their new names, here is the event that gave Jethro, the priest of Median his new name.

Exodus 18:10-12 And Jethro said, Blessed be the LORD, who hath delivered you out of the hand of the Egyptians, and out of the hand of Pharaoh, who hath delivered the people from under the hand of the Egyptians. Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them. And Jethro, Moses' father in law, took a burnt offering and sacrifices for God: and Aaron came, and all the elders of Israel, to eat bread with Moses' father in law before God.

And thus, was given the name Hobab, "from 2245; cherished; Chobab, father-in-law of Moses:--Hobab." :D

Num 10:29
29 And Moses said unto Hobab, the son of Raguel the Midianite, Moses' father in law, We are journeying unto the place of which the LORD said, I will give it you: come thou with us, and we will do thee good: for the LORD hath spoken good concerning Israel. (KJV)

So we see that Hobab (Jethro) was the son of Raguel (Reuel, as you have explained as being the same as Raguel), the Midianite whom we've already concluded came from Keturah, Abraham's wife. Hobab, according to scripture is the father in law to Moses.

It really is that simple... But we have another matter to contend with. Let me explain.

Numbers 10:30 And he said unto him, I will not go; but I will depart to mine own land, and to my kindred.

We know that Moses is referring to the land of Canaan, yet Hobab will be going to his own land. Yet we can look at a map and see clearly where the Kenites dwell, which clearly, is in Canaan.

 

[stovebolts]

Hi Prince,
Sorry for jumping the gun a bit, and I'm hoping you found my last post acceptable.

I wanted to talk a bit about the Kenites, and how they relate to Cain if that's ok. Remember we started off with the understanding that Kenite basically means "Smith's" in terms of working with metal, which of course would include swords and spears etc.

Let's take a look at this piece of scripture.

17 Cain made love to his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was then building a city, and he named it after his son Enoch. 18 To Enoch was born Irad, and Irad was the father of Mehujael, and Mehujael was the father of Methushael, and Methushael was the father of Lamech.

19 Lamech married two women, one named Adah and the other Zillah. 20 Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the father of those who live in tents and raise livestock. 21 His brother’s name was Jubal; he was the father of all who play stringed instruments and pipes. 22 Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of[g] bronze and iron. Tubal-Cain’s sister was Naamah.
23 Lamech said to his wives, “Adah and Zillah, listen to me;
wives of Lamech, hear my words.
I have killed a man for wounding me,
a young man for injuring me.
24 If Cain is avenged seven times,
then Lamech seventy-seven times.”

Now, there is much we could say about the above scripture, but what I want to focus in on is that Lamech was considered a very wise man, for he brought up three son's who each had a valuable skill. This show's great diversity and and understanding in the different trades of the day and to have his sons master these trades is a great testament to Lamech. This is seen by the term "the father", as we've discussed this term earlier.

Now then, do you also notice how we are given Lamech's wives names? Yet we do not have the name of Cain's wife? This is significant in Scripture. But what is more unique is that we get the name of Tubal-Cain's Sister which is "Naamah", which means lovely and carries the idea of a highly regarded woman.

So, it could be reasoned that Tubal-Cain is the father of the "Smith's" and in Jewish reasoning, the seed is passed through the woman (which is a study in itself), which in this case would be Naamah. This idea of the seed being passed by the woman can be seen even today in Jewish thought. For example, if you have a Jewish Mother and a Gentile father, the child is considered Jewish. If though, that the Father is Jewish and the mother is Gentile, then the child must go through conversion to be consisdered Jewish.

Forward to the Flood, and we see that Noah's wife is not named, but it would be assumed that she would be of great stature. In the Talmud, the Sages have said that Naamah was the wife of Noah, thus when the flood Killed Cain and his offspring, Tubal-Cain's seed was preserved through Naamah, for she was the sister of Tubal-Cain, the father of those who work with Iron, copper and brass. Thus, "Smith's" aka Kenites.

 

[Prince]

Hi Prince,
Sorry for jumping the gun a bit, and I'm hoping you found my last post acceptable.

I wanted to talk a bit about the Kenites, and how they relate to Cain if that's ok. Remember we started off with the understanding that Kenite basically means "Smith's" in terms of working with metal, which of course would include swords and spears etc.

Let's take a look at this piece of scripture.

17 Cain made love to his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was then building a city, and he named it after his son Enoch. 18 To Enoch was born Irad, and Irad was the father of Mehujael, and Mehujael was the father of Methushael, and Methushael was the father of Lamech.

19 Lamech married two women, one named Adah and the other Zillah. 20 Adah gave birth to Jabal; he was the father of those who live in tents and raise livestock. 21 His brother’s name was Jubal; he was the father of all who play stringed instruments and pipes. 22 Zillah also had a son, Tubal-Cain, who forged all kinds of tools out of[g] bronze and iron. Tubal-Cain’s sister was Naamah.
23 Lamech said to his wives, “Adah and Zillah, listen to me;
wives of Lamech, hear my words.
I have killed a man for wounding me,
a young man for injuring me.
24 If Cain is avenged seven times,
then Lamech seventy-seven times.â€

Now, there is much we could say about the above scripture, but what I want to focus in on is that Lamech was considered a very wise man, for Nhe brought up three son's who each had a valuable skill. This show's great diversity and and understanding in the different trades of the day and to have his sons master these trades is a great testament to Lamech. This is seen by the term "the father", as we've discussed this term earlier.

Now then, do you also notice how we are given Lamech's wives names? Yet we do not have the name of Cain's wife? This is significant in Scripture. But what is more unique is that we get the name of Tubal-Cain's Sister which is "Naamah", which means lovely and carries the idea of a highly regarded woman.

So, it could be reasoned that Tubal-Cain is the father of the "Smith's" and in Jewish reasoning, the seed is passed through the woman (which is a study in itself), which in this case would be Naamah. This idea of the seed being passed by the woman can be seen even today in Jewish thought. For example, if you have a Jewish Mother and a Gentile father, the child is considered Jewish. If though, that the Father is Jewish and the mother is Gentile, then the child must go through conversion to be consisdered Jewish.

Forward to the Flood, and we see that Noah's wife is not named, but it would be assumed that she would be of great stature. In the Talmud, the Sages have said that Naamah was the wife of Noah, thus when the flood Killed Cain and his offspring, Tubal-Cain's seed was preserved through Naamah, for she was the sister of Tubal-Cain, the father of those who work with Iron, copper and brass. Thus, "Smith's" aka Kenites.

Hey

I wanted to talk a bit about the Kenites, and how they relate to Cain if that's ok

OK

Now, there is much we could say about the above scripture, but what I want to focus in on is that Lamech was considered a very wise man, for he brought up three son's who each had a valuable skill. This show's great diversity and and understanding in the different trades of the day and to have his sons master these trades is a great testament to Lamech. This is seen by the term "the father", as we've discussed this term earlier.

Maybe, but it is hard for me to give documentation on this because I dont wanna break any of the rules I know people really get upset at some things regarding Kenites, so forgive me if I am unable to exspress my opionion fully.

I believe the Kenites are smarter then average people, due to there origin and the fact that they fulfill the negative part of Gods plan.

Also because of there role in Gods plan they are linked with the fallen angels, kinda easy to build a sword and advance in metals and music when your getting tutor by angels, lol.

Ever wondered why Solomon hired them to build his temple? anyhow I will touch more on the Kenites in a moment just getting settled in. I see you referanced the "Talmud" I will start another thread on this so it will not detour the Kenite conversastion.

 

[stovebolts]

This should be fun

So we see that Tubal-Cain was the father of fabricating tools...

Tool: 2719
drought; also a cutting instrument (from its destructive effect), as a knife, sword, or other sharp implement: -- axe, dagger, knife, mattock, sword, tool.

The word Tool conotes destruction in the Hebrew language.

Exodus 20:25 And if thou wilt make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone: for if thou lift up thy tool upon it, thou hast polluted it

God will not allow an item that causes destruction to touch his Holy Altar...

1 Kings 6:7 And the house, when it was in building, was built of stone made ready before it was brought thither: so that there was neither hammer nor axe nor any tool of iron heard in the house, while it was in building.

And so, the Temple Solomon built was not polluted either.

Also, I see Tyre as having a large role in building the Temple...