• CFN has a new look and a new theme

    "I bore you on eagle's wings, and brought you to Myself" (Exodus 19:4)

    More new themes will be coming in the future!

  • Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?

    Join For His Glory for a discussion on how

    https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/

  • CFN welcomes new contributing members!

    Please welcome Roberto and Julia to our family

    Blessings in Christ, and hope you stay awhile!

  • Have questions about the Christian faith?

    Come ask us what's on your mind in Questions and Answers

    https://christianforums.net/forums/questions-and-answers/

  • Read the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ?

    Read through this brief blog, and receive eternal salvation as the free gift of God

    /blog/the-gospel

  • Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need

    https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

[_ Old Earth _] Giving up something

  • Thread starter Thread starter reznwerks
  • Start date Start date
R

reznwerks

Guest
"You have to give up something to be a scientist. It may be painful, but it has to go.

What is it? It's a freedom. --- You mean scientists have to give up freedom? They're less free than other people?---

Exactly. That may be a hard truth, but then that's the subject of this essay.

Children are free to believe almost anything they want. We think it's cute and charming when a little kid believes in the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus. Most parents are amused, and tolerate such childish beliefs. Many encourage them, and even use them. How many parents have used the threat of Santa Claus's not coming to promote better behavior? We don't think of such deceptions as "lying" to our children. It's more like taking harmless advantage of their immaturity and childish gullibility. Sometimes it's explaining things, when the child isn't ready for the complicated truths of the real world.

An active imagination is vital for a growing child. As a matter of fact, I read recently that a complete lack of imagination in children is a symptom of autism -- a serious mental disorder (remember The Rain Man ?). Very young children have trouble distinguishing imagination from reality. They may have imaginary playmates -- or imaginary monsters. Sometimes their imaginations are as real, to them, as reality.

But as a child grows, he learns the difference, usually without too much trouble. A high school student, for instance, no longer believes he can grow up to be Batman, or fears a monster under his bed. If he does, we consider him "disturbed." That doesn't mean that an adolescent or adult has to give up imagination. On the contrary, we know that our most gifted, intelligent, productive people have very active imaginations. That may be what distinguishes them from more "ordinary" people. But they know the difference. They don't confuse imagination with reality.

Scientists have imaginations. I think they surely have to. Otherwise, how could they imagine possible experiments, or possible answers to be tested? How could they imagine general laws, or great unifying theories to explain isolated facts? How could they even conceive of things they will never really "see" -- like electrons, or black holes?

Then where's the freedom scientists have to give up? Little kids are free to believe anything they want to believe -- anything they can imagine. They can believe something because it's fun to believe it. They can change their minds if it's no longer fun, or if something more fun comes along. A little girl can believe in the Easter Bunny when she's two, and that her doll can understand her at three. Kids give up these childish beliefs -- or realize that they're just imagination -- as they get older. In some cases they may not, however, give up the habit of believing in something just because they want to -- because it's fun to believe it, because it would be cool if it were true, because the world would be more interesting if it were true, maybe they would have more control over the world if it were true. Thus we have teenagers, and plenty of adults, who are ready to believe in things that would be neat, that would give them power, if they were true: astrology, rabbits' feet, ESP, Bigfoot and UFOs, magic in various forms, guardian angels, luck. Even scary things fit in (ghosts, poltergeists, demon possession), because they're fun: we like to be scared -- and maybe we can blame some of our failings on the "powers beyond."

Such beliefs are very human, They're surely comforting, but they're not science . Science, if it means anything, has to mean believing only what can be tested, demonstrated repeatedly, proven physically -- and believing everything that can be so proven, even if you'd prefer it not to be true, even if it's uncomfortable. This definition has to include no t accepting things that don't stand up to such rigorous tests, or at least suspending belief in them until such proof is supplied. I'm not talking about abstract religious beliefs here; science is neutral in such areas. But when real effects are claimed in the physical world (Madam Zorba can predict your future; I can cure you by touching you; the world is only 6,000 years old), science has to demand hard, replicable evidence that stands up to the closest examination. That's science .

Only that attitude is science. Anything else is alchemy, astrology, wizardry, magic, superstition. Science gave up on those attitudes because they didn't work. Scientists are not free to believe in things just because they want them to be true, or to disbelieve uncomfortable truths just because they don't like them. If science and scientists hold a scientifically established belief (the existence of the atom, say, or the evolution of life), then an individual is free to believe or disbelieve it as he pleases -- but a scientist, or anyone who considers himself "scientific," is not. He cannot hold a contrary belief unless he has hard , incontrovertible, massive evidence that he is right. If he has that, science will soon agree with him.

There's a price to everything. This is one of the prices of being a scientist ."

R. J. Riggins
darrwin@aol.com
 
I dont see whats wrong with giving up childish things. I would give them up. If i knew the earth was round, why would i want to believe its flat?

People know that fantasy books are fake AKA FANTASY, yet they read them anyways.
 
Thus we have teenagers, and plenty of adults, who are ready to believe in things that would be neat, that would give them power, if they were true

Could not the same thing be said about god? God is the result of an absence of science. Back in the days of the primitive man they had no way of explaining the things and happening around them. Science was developed to fill this lack of understanding to give a reason for things and satisfy curiosity. Scientist are freer than you know.

As a scientist I have a better understanding of life because I can prove the things that I know. If I don’t understand, I can ask questions, if I need and answer I go and look for it. You who devote you live to faith are less free than me. You are forbidden to ask God a question. You are restricted to one book as your only reference of truth. On the other I have unlimited resources at my disposal to answer my questions.

Faith without question is not freedom, knowing the truth is.
 
You who devote you live to faith are less free than me. You are forbidden to ask God a question. You are restricted to one book as your only reference of truth.

You're mis-informed......God does not forbid me asking Him anything....as a matter of fact, He welcomes my questions....most importantly, He willingly answers them. Additionally, I'm not restricted by one book....I DO believe that the Bible is the only book I truly need....but, God opens doors to whole new horizons of understanding.....science being one of them. I just let the Word and the Holy Spirit be my guide....not any type of restrictions.....I've never been more free......The Word set me free from the captivity of darkness....
 
Science/scientists cannot study the supernatural, the paranormal, anything extranatural. Science deals with the physical universe and existence. A scientist need not abandon faith, just realize it is not something which he can use science to study. Simply put, physical sciences are incorrect methods to use in studying the supernatural, etc.

Now, granted, it can discover some possibly supernatural facts(consider the dualistic human brain.), or it can confirm the existence of some supernatural entities(The natural laws of the universe require a creator, demon possession can be observed.)


Hey rez, what exactly are you trying to say?
 
article

Darck Marck said:
Science/scientists cannot study the supernatural, the paranormal, anything extranatural. Science deals with the physical universe and existence. A scientist need not abandon faith, just realize it is not something which he can use science to study. Simply put, physical sciences are incorrect methods to use in studying the supernatural, etc.

Now, granted, it can discover some possibly supernatural facts(consider the dualistic human brain.), or it can confirm the existence of some supernatural entities(The natural laws of the universe require a creator, demon possession can be observed.)
No, science cannot as yet confirm the existance of supernatural entities. If it could this forum would not exist. The natural laws DO NOT require a creator. Only in mans limited ability to reason does it come to that conclusion. The fact of the matter as I have said many times before we do not know everything and we man never know everything. Demon possession cannot be observed because no one has ever produced any evidence that demons exist. Mental illness was once thought to be evidence of demon possession but we now know and can see the brain and compare it to a normal brain and we can also test for imbalances of chemicals that directly influence behavior.



Hey rez, what exactly are you trying to say?
First of all my post was not my words but I concur absolutely with what was written. Basically scientists are not free to offer opinions as fact . They are bound by the observable and provable.
 
No, science cannot as yet confirm the existance of supernatural entities.

Science is not the field of supernatural study. Science does not deal with anything but the physical universe.

The natural laws DO NOT require a creator.

The natural laws DO require a Creator.

Only in mans limited ability to reason does it come to that conclusion.

Most people, with their limited human reason, have come to the conclusion that God does exist, and is the Creator.

The fact of the matter as I have said many times before we do not know everything and we man never know everything.

I agree on both points.

Demon possession cannot be observed because no one has ever produced any evidence that demons exist.

What would you, or do you, consider evidence of demon possession?

Mental illness was once thought to be evidence of demon possession but we now know and can see the brain and compare it to a normal brain and we can also test for imbalances of chemicals that directly influence behavior.

You do realize, don't you, that the brain reacts to stimulus? The 'demon possessed brain' would be different than the normal brain, obviously. If you meant that it is not possible to determine possession by studying the alledgedly possessed brain, and it's differences from the normal brain, then I would agree.

Basically scientists are not free to offer opinions as fact . They are bound by the observable and provable.

Well, the supernatural is observable, but not predictable. It is provable, just not currently.(Not including personal methods of obtaining 'proof'.)
 
It is sheer madness to think this Universe came about by blind luck.

No one has to give up freedom to be a scientist.

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
 
bibleberean said:
It is sheer madness to think this Universe came about by blind luck.

No one has to give up freedom to be a scientist.

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

I don't think anyone is saying that the Universe came about by blind luck. Your statement is a strawman.
 
Asimov said:
bibleberean said:
It is sheer madness to think this Universe came about by blind luck.

No one has to give up freedom to be a scientist.

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

I don't think anyone is saying that the Universe came about by blind luck. Your statement is a strawman.

I hope not. because anyone who believes the universe came about by chance is a fool according to the scriptures...

If the universe wasn't created by intelligence then it happened by chance.

And chance did not bring about the complex and intelligenlty designed universe we see around us.

I don't know any strawmen... ;-)
 
your bible, your scriptures, say that those who believe life came about by chance or fools.

logic of probability says that there isnt intelligent design.

look at it.

the universe is infinite right?
if it is infinite, there are an infinite # of chances of this to occur.
it onyl took 1 of the infinite to work, and there, probably are others, because, it is infinite.

unless you believe that space is limited, and there is god with a marble going "hey look, ooo ahh marble yay!"


by saying there is intelligence that created it, you are using chance to say that, not only did something get created, but something INTELLIGENT got created.
 
bibleberean said:
I hope not. because anyone who believes the universe came about by chance is a fool according to the scriptures...

Yes, you keep saying that, you don't have to repeat it.
If the universe wasn't created by intelligence then it happened by chance.

No, that's not true at all.
And chance did not bring about the complex and intelligenlty designed universe we see around us.

how do you know?

Oh wait...."because Jesus tells me." gotcha.


I don't know any strawmen... ;-)[/quote]
 
Back
Top