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[_ Old Earth _] God is amazing.

  • Thread starter Thread starter MUSICforCHRIST
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MUSICforCHRIST

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WARNING: I'm just a teenager and can barely wrap my head around what i'm about to post, therefore i'm not going to be able to greatly dispute something that you might have in rebutle. These are the notes that I took from one of my youth pastor's sermons, so if you don't understand my notes... i'm sorry.

I titled this God is amazing because everytime I think about it it blows my mind how amazing He is...

3 reasons to prove that God made us.

#1- The Cell

Darwinian evolution teaches the idea that life began with very simple organisms that evolved to more complex organisms.

How does the cell complicate this theory?

1. The Cell membrane.

Once considered a lifeless barrier, the cell membrane is a two layer wall that is extremely complex. The inner and outer layer is different in structure, composition, and function.

The environment needed for a two later membrane of this complexity is mind blowing. Such conditions would not likely persist for long on earth.

2. The genetic code.

The genetic code has a virtually perfect error-minimization property (better than a million to one).

Based on this research, scientists concluded that the rules of the genetic code could not be a randomly produced.

A code assembled through random biochemical events could never have near ideal error-minimization properties.

They had to conclude that a force shaped the genetic code. They said it was the process of natural selection.
But, according to Nobel Laureate Francis Crick (1968) the genetic code could not have undergone significant evolution because it would have been lethal to the cell.

Even if the changes happened gradually, natural selection doesn’t have the time to do what it needs to do. It would have to go through 10 to the 54 power codes per second. This is pretty hard to disputer whether your and old-earther or a new-earther...

#2-Morality
My youth pastor had a great example for this but it was quite lengthy and I didn't include it in my notes...

Evolution says: That morality came from an inner desire to preserve the species.

2 reasons why this is foolish:

1. Where did the force or rule come from to make us always seek for the protection of the species?

In other words, “Where did the impulse to seek our own survival come from?†It evolved based on a species seeking its own survival.

2. Acts of selfishness hurt a group and therefore its survival. But wanting the protection of the group is ultimately an act of selfishness.

In other words, I ought to be unselfish because it’s better for me.

#3- Life from non-life.


For Darwinian evolution to be a fact, you have to have:

1. Abiogenesis: Life came from non-life.
2. That life has to change into more complex forms over time.

No one knows how life came from non-life.

If you don’t know how it happened by naturalistic, evolutionary processes, how do you know that it happened by naturalistic, evolutionary processes?

-Try to drive and engine with no car...
 
Rock on Liz!

Good to see a young sis in Christ rocking the boat!!

Very rare indeed....
:o
 
1. The Cell membrane.

Once considered a lifeless barrier, the cell membrane is a two layer wall that is extremely complex. The inner and outer layer is different in structure, composition, and function.

The environment needed for a two later membrane of this complexity is mind blowing. Such conditions would not likely persist for long on earth.
The structure of basic cells has been evolving for about 3.5 billion years now...hence one would expect them to be highly sophisticated. Even more than other structures in larger organisms in fact, as cells have gone through trillions of generations in trillions of parallel developments when life was single celled. This is perfectly consistent with evolution, and pretty much predicted by it.

2. The genetic code.

The genetic code has a virtually perfect error-minimization property (better than a million to one).

Based on this research, scientists concluded that the rules of the genetic code could not be a randomly produced.

A code assembled through random biochemical events could never have near ideal error-minimization properties.

They had to conclude that a force shaped the genetic code. They said it was the process of natural selection.
But, according to Nobel Laureate Francis Crick (1968) the genetic code could not have undergone significant evolution because it would have been lethal to the cell.
Again, a trillion times many trillion attempts can achieve a lot. A low mutation rate is very beneficial to the species.

1968 is somewhat old, the structure of DNA was only known for 15 years back then, and the syntax only for 3 years...38 more years of research have passed since then. Furthermore the code wouldn't have to change, but the error correcting mechanism. That's quite a difference in first instance.

PS: It is possible to breed yeast to improve the error correcting mechanism. This happened e.g. in case of Deinococcus Radiodurans, which utterly demolishes this argument.


Even if the changes happened gradually, natural selection doesn’t have the time to do what it needs to do. It would have to go through 10 to the 54 power codes per second. This is pretty hard to disputer whether your and old-earther or a new-earther...
I'd like to see the math behind that number, where did it come from?
Didn't you previously state that it's just "better than a million to one"? How does this fit to that statement? Shouldn't about a million attempts be sufficient then?



#2-Morality
My youth pastor had a great example for this but it was quite lengthy and I didn't include it in my notes...

Evolution says: That morality came from an inner desire to preserve the species.
Your pastor either has no idea what he was talking about ot he was lying. Evolution makes no statement about where morality came from at all, and what he said is completely made up.


#3- Life from non-life.

For Darwinian evolution to be a fact, you have to have:

1. Abiogenesis: Life came from non-life.
2. That life has to change into more complex forms over time.

No one knows how life came from non-life.

If you don’t know how it happened by naturalistic, evolutionary processes, how do you know that it happened by naturalistic, evolutionary processes?

-Try to drive and engine with no car...
In fact little is known about how life began, but there are hypotheses about that. Either way, precise knowledge of how life began is not relevant to the theory of evolution. It just requires life to exist, and that it quite unquestionably does. The evidence indicates that life was very different in the past, and evolution explains why. If the first living cell on earth was poofed into existence by a deity, by abiogenesis or if it came as a spore from space does not matter to the theory of evolution at all - just like you don't have to know how the transistor was invented in order to write new computer programs. You just work on what is already there.
 
DNA Molecules and the Overwhelming Odds Against Evolution

Within each cell there is an area called the nucleus which contains the all-important chromosomes. Chromosomes are microscopically small, rod-shaped structures which carry the genes. Within the chromosomes is an even smaller structure called DNA. This is one of the most important chemical substances in the human body -- or in any other living thing. Increasing scientific understanding of DNA molecules has revealed enormous problems for materialism.

DNA is a super-molecule which stores coded hereditary information. It consists of two long "chains" of chemical "building blocks" paired together. In humans, the strands of DNA are almost 2 yards long, yet less than a trillionth of an inch thick.

In function, DNA is somewhat like a computer program on a floppy disk. It stores and transfers encoded information and instructions. It is said that the DNA of a human stores enough information code to fill 1,000 books -- each with 500 pages of very small, closely-printed type. The DNA code produces a product far more sophisticated than that of any computer. Amazingly, this enormous set of instructions fits with ease within a single cell and routinely directs the formation of entire adult humans, starting with just a single fertilized egg. Even the DNA of a bacterium is highly complex, containing at least 3 million units, all aligned in a very precise, meaningful sequence.

DNA and the molecules that surround it form a truly superb mechanism -- a miniaturized marvel. the information is so compactly stored that the amount of DNA necessary to code all the people living on our planet might fit into a space no larger than an asprin tablet!

Many scientists are convinced that cells containing such a complex code and such intricate chemistry could never have come into being by pure, undirected chemistry. No matter how chemicals are mixed, they do not create DNA spirals or any intelligent code whatsoever. Only DNA reproduces DNA.

Two well known scientists calculated the odds of life forming by natural processes. They estimated that there is less than 1 chance in 10 to the 40,000power that life could have originated by random trials. 10 to the 40,000power is a 1 with 40,000 zeros after it!

- "...life cannot have had a random beginning...The trouble is that there are about two thousand enzymes, and the chance of obtaining them all in a random trial is only one part in 10 to the 40,000power, an outrageously small probability that could not be faced even if the whole universe consisted of organic soup. If one is not prejudiced either by social beliefs or by a scientific training into the conviction that life originated on the Earth, this simple calculation wipes the idea entirely out of court....The enormous information content of even the simplest living systems...cannot in our view be generated by what are often called "natural" processes...For life to have originated on the Earth it would be necessary that quite explicit instruction should have been provided for its assembly...There is no way in which we can expect to avoid the need for information, no way in which we can simply get by with a bigger and better organic soup, as we ourselves hoped might be possible a year or two ago."

Fred Hoyle and N. Chandra Wickramasinghe,
Evolution from Space [Aldine House, 33 Welbeck Street, London W1M 8LX:
J.M. Dent & Sons, 1981), p. 148, 24,150,30,31).

How can one gain some conception of the size of such a huge number? According to most Evolutionists, the universe is less than 30 billion years old -- and there are fewer than 10 to the 18thPower seconds in 30 billion years. So, even if nature could somehow have produced trillions of genetic code combinations every second for 30 billion years, the probabilities against producing the simplest one-celled animal by trial and error would still be inconceivably immense! In other words, probabilities greatly favor those that believe an intelligent designer was responsible for originating even the simplest DNA molecules.

Chemist Dr. Grebe: "That organic evolution could account for the complex forms of life in the past and the present has long since been abandoned by men who grasp the importance of the DNA genetic code."

Researcher and mathematician I.L Cohen: "At that moment, when the DNA/RNA system became understood, the debate between Evolutionists and Creationists should have come to a screeching halt...the implications of the DNA/RNA were obvious and clear....Mathematically speaking, based on probability concepts, there is no possibility that Evolution vs the mechanism that created the approximately 6,000,000 species of plants and animals we recognize today."

Evolutionist Michael Denton: "The complexity of the simplest known type of cell is so great that it is impossible to accept that such an object could have been thrown together suddenly by some kind of freakish, vastly improbable, event. Such an occurrence would be indistinguishable from a miracle."

Famed researcher Sir Fred Hoyle is in agreement with Creationists on this point. He has reportedly said that supposing the first cell originated by chance is like believing "a tornado sweeping through a junk yard might assemble a Boeng 747 from the materials therein."

Many, if not most, origin-of-life researchers now agree with Hoyle: Life could not have originated by chance or by any known natural processes. many Evolutionists are now searching for some theoretical force within matter which might push matter toward the assembly of greater complexity. Most Creationists believe this is doomed to failure, since it contradicts the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.

It is important to note that the information written on DNA molecules is not produced by any known natural interaction of matter. Matter and molecules have no innate intelligence, allowing self organization into codes. There are no know n physical laws which give molecules a natural tendency to arrange themselves into such coded structures.

Like a computer disk, DNA has no intelligence. The complex, purposeful codes of this "master program" could have only originated outside itself. In the case of a computer program, the original codes were put there by an intelligent being, a programmer. Likewise, for DNA, it seems clear that intelligence must have come first, before the existence of DNA. Statistically, the odds are enormously in favor of that theory. DNA bears the marks of intelligent manufacture.

Dr Wilder-Smith is an honored scientist who is certainly well-informed on modern biology and biochemistry. What is his considered opinion as to the source of the DNA codes found in each wondrous plant and animal? "...an attempt to explain the formation of the genetic code from the chemical components of DNA...is comparable to the assumption that the text of a book originates from the paper molecules on which the sentences appear, and not from any external source of information." " As a scientist, I am convinced that the pure chemistry of a cell is not enough to explain the workings of a cell, although the workings are chemical. The chemical workings of the cell are controlled by information which does not reside in the atoms and molecules of that cell. There is an author which transcends the material and the matter of which these strands are made. The author first of all conceived the information necessary to make a cell, then wrote it down, and then fixed it in a mechanism of reading it and realizing it in practice -- so that the cell builds itself from the information..."

One need only look carefully at any living creature to gain some concept of their enormous complexity. If you have a pet, consider the complexities that must be involved -- enabling that "package of matter" to move about, play, remember, show signs of affection, eat, and reproduce!

If that is not enough to boggle your mind, imagine being given the task of constructing a similar living pet from carbon, calcium, hydrogen, oxygen, etc. -- the animal's basic constituent parts.

If you have ever held a beloved pet in your hands, completely limp and dead, you may have some comprehension of the helplessness of even the most intelligent and sophisticated scientist when it comes to the overwhelming problem of trying to create life.

In contrast, the natural world does not have the advantages people bring to the problem. In nature, there are only matter, energy, time, chance and the physical laws -- no guiding force, no purpose, and no goal.

Yet, even with all of modern man's accumulated knowledge, advanced tools, and experience, we are still absolutely overwhelmed at the complexities. This is despite the fact that we are certainly not starting from absolute zero in this problem, for there are millions of actual living examples of life to scrutinize.

THE INCREDIBLE COMPLEXITY OF MAN

All living things are extremely complex, even the tiniest single-celled animals and bacteria. However, none surpasses the overall complexity of the human being. Not only is each person constructed of trillions of molecules and cells, but the human brain alone is filled with billions of cells forming trillions of trillions of connections. The design of the human brain is truly awesome and beyond our understanding. Every cubic inch of the human brain contains at least 100 million nerve cells interconnected by 10 thousand miles of fibers.

It has been said that man's 3 pound brain is the most complex and orderly arrangement of matter in the entire universe! Far more complicated than any computer, the human brain is capable of storing and creatively manipulating seemingly infinite amounts of information. Its capabilities and potential stagger the imagination. The more we use it, the better it becomes.

The brain capabilities of even the smallest insects are mind-boggling. The tiny speck of a brain found in a little ant, butterfly or bee enable them not only to see, smell, taste and move, but even to fly with great precision. Butterflies routinely navigate enormous distances. Bees and ants carry on complex social organizations, building projects, and communications. These miniature brains put our computers and avionics to shame, in comparison.

The marvels of the bodies of both animals and man are evidently endless. Dr. A.E. Wilder-Smith makes this thought-provoking and humbling statement:

"When one considers that the entire chemical information to construct a man, elephant, frog or an orchid was compressed into two minuscule reproductive cells (sperm and egg nuclei), one can only be astounded. In addition to this, all the information is available on the genes to repair the body (not only to construct it) when it is injured. If one were to request an engineer to accomplish this feat of information miniaturization, one would be considered fit for the psychiatric clinic."

It is certainly true that a machine carefully made by a craftsman reflects the existence of it's creator. It would be foolish to suggest that time and chance could make a typewriter or a microwave oven, or that the individual parts could form themselves into these complex mechanisms due to the physical properties of matter. Yet, life is far, far more complex than any man-made machine.

The more scientists study life, the more they become deeply impressed. Nature is full of intricate design and beauty. In contrast to man-made objects, which look increasingly crude in finish and detail the closer they are viewed (i.e., through powerful microscopes), the closer life is examined the more complex and wondrous it appears.

Planet Earth is filled with myriad forms of life, each with enormous levels of complexity. Materialists believe life in all its amazing forms consist merely of atoms and molecules. They believe these atoms and molecules formed themselves into millions of intricate animals and plants. This view was born out of an earlier, more naive period in science when the extreme complexity of living systems was not understood. Even if nature could build the necessary proteins and enzymes, it is far from producing life. There is an enormous difference between producing a building block and producing a fully operating and serviced 100-story skyscraper from those building blocks. Buildings require builders; programs require programmers.

Today, most scientists are convinced that life could never have come into being without some form of highly intelligent and powerful designer.

THE BOTTOM LINE on the origin of life

- During all recorded human history, there has never been a substantiated case of a living thing being produced from anything other than another living thing.

- As yet, evolutionism has not produced a scientifically credible explanation for the origin of such immense complexities as DNA, the human brain, and many elements of the cosmos.

- It is highly premature for materialists to claim that all living things evolved into existence, when science has yet to discover how even one protein molecule could actually have come into existence by natural processes.

- there is no scientific proof that life did (or ever could) evolve into existence from non-living matter. Further, there is substantial evidence that spontaneous generation is impossible. Only DNA is known to produce DNA. No chemical interaction of molecules has even come close to producing this ultra-complex code which is so essential to all known life.

Retrieved from http://crl.i8.com/Evolution/Dna.html
 
To JWU: This is mainly refuting Darwinian Evolution.

And thank you for completely ignoring the warning I put at the top.

In fact little is known about how life began, but there are hypotheses about that.

Have you not read Genesis?
Why are you a memeber of a CHRISTIAN forum if you don't believe that God created us?
 
Liz wrote:

Why are you a memeber of a CHRISTIAN forum if you don't believe that God

created us?

Powerful question. During our debates, I often wondered the same thing

jwu.

I don't get it? Why does God have to use evolution involving billions of

years? I wouldn't ask this of an atheist, but you have professed to be a

Christian. Your an extremely intelligent individual, as I've discovered in our

debates. But you have this hang-up about God creating us in our final form.


jwu wrote:

You just work on what is already there.

But what if the assumptions in place are flawed at there very root (i.e.-as

we've been debating thorougly the problem of information increase without

the intervention of intelligence)?

Peace
 
To JWU: This is mainly refuting Darwinian Evolution.
...and it fails at that.

And thank you for completely ignoring the warning I put at the top.
What warning? That you hardly understand what you posted? Doesn't that mean that you should rather attempt to learn about it?

No offence, but anything else reads to me like, "i don't understand what i just pasted in here, but i believe it destroys the theory of evolution. If it does not, then please don't disturb my sweet dreams". That however is not what you can expect to happen on a debate forum.

Furthermore i find such texts to be dangerous to the cause of Christianity.
This is what Saint Augustine said on these matters:
Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he hold to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion. [1 Timothy 1.7]





Have you not read Genesis?
Why are you a memeber of a CHRISTIAN forum if you don't believe that God created us?
I do believe that God created us, using evolution as His tool, and genesis is not to be interpreted literal, but allegorically.


I don't get it? Why does God have to use evolution involving billions of years? I wouldn't ask this of an atheist, but you have professed to be a
Christian. Your an extremely intelligent individual, as I've discovered in our
debates. But you have this hang-up about God creating us in our final form.
Because the evidence indicates that that is how it happened. God's creation basically screams, "i am billions of years old, and slowly developed into what i look like today". I consider God's works as a tool for the exegesis of the Bible. If God's works appear to disagree with the Bible, then our undestanding of the Bible is more likely to require adjustment.

But what if the assumptions in place are flawed at there very root (i.e.-as we've been debating thorougly the problem of information increase without the interventtion of intelligence).?
I don't think they are...if someone finds a serious flaw in it the theory of evolution, then i'd be among the first to admit that.
I do not in any way deny that God may have guided evolution to get what He wanted, but i don't think that God left fingerprints of this intervention.
Furthermore i believe that God wants to be known by faith, not by hard evidence - so leaving such fingerprints would equate God making a mistake.
 
jwu said:
...if someone finds a serious flaw in it the theory of evolution, then i'd be among the first to admit that.

Then you can be among the first to admit that the knowledge that we have concerning DNA refutes the possibility of evolution having occured. The article, DNA Molecules and the Overwhelming Odds Against Evolution is quite revealing to those who are serious in seeking the truth of God's creation. Some professed Christians align themselves with atheists and humanists who prefer evolution over creation because it feeds the fleshly portion of their lives, where creation takes faith and it can not feed the flesh.
 
Then you can be among the first to admit that the knowledge that we have concerning DNA refutes the possibility of evolution having occured. The article, DNA Molecules and the Overwhelming Odds Against Evolution is quite revealing to those who are serious in seeking the truth of God's creation.
I don't see much else than appeals to emotion and straw men in that article, no actual substance.
 
jwu said:
Then you can be among the first to admit that the knowledge that we have concerning DNA refutes the possibility of evolution having occured. The article, DNA Molecules and the Overwhelming Odds Against Evolution is quite revealing to those who are serious in seeking the truth of God's creation.
I don't see much else than appeals to emotion and straw men in that article, no actual substance.
Your reply doesn't surprise me. It is the typical pro-evolution swag. If you end up in heaven, I'm stopping by to say, "I told you so!"
 
Well, since you disagree, why don't we discuss the points that the article makes? One at a time...where do you want to begin?
 
jwu said:
Well, since you disagree, why don't we discuss the points that the article makes? One at a time...where do you want to begin?
You need physical evidence and I need faith. All of the evolution in the world does not align with the truths revealed in the Word of God. I have no time to waste quibbling about a theory of atheists and humanists. You would not be swayed from your stand anyway. Good luck.
 
You need physical evidence and I need faith. All of the evolution in the world does not align with the truths revealed in the Word of God. I have no time to waste quibbling about a theory of atheists and humanists. You would not be swayed from your stand anyway. Good luck.
Exactly that is what Saint Augustine was talking about.
 
jwu said:
Furthermore i find such texts to be dangerous to the cause of Christianity.
This is what Saint Augustine said on these matters:
Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he hold to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion. [1 Timothy 1.7]

I think this is about the wisest thing I have seen posted on these boards.
 
I have just started jumping into this evolution thing so please don't personally attack me jwu. I'm just 16 and i'm obviously not up to your standards of debate. So please just leave it at that and forget I ever posted the notes if you think they are so horribly wrong.
 
MUSICforCHRIST said:
I have just started jumping into this evolution thing so please don't personally attack me jwu. I'm just 16 and i'm obviously not up to your standards of debate. So please just leave it at that and forget I ever posted the notes if you think they are so horribly wrong.

There's certainly nothing wrong with posting your opinions here. Your contributions are valued. However, you seemed to present your original thoughts as, "Here's something I heard. I don't want to discuss whether or not it's flawed or not, because I don't know enough to tell." That may not be what you intended, but that's how it seemed.

Now, on a forum for discussion, it's unreasonable to expect people to just accept what is said when they might disagree with it. Me, I disagree with evolution, and I still think what you presented was a poor argument in favor of creationism. It was rife with faulty reasoning, misrepresentations, and logical fallacies. You said that you didn't really understand what you were posting. That's certainly fine, but as God's children we should always seek to educate ourselves, both spiritually and academically. God gave us both souls and minds, and we should use them both in our quest to explore the beautiful world He's given to us.

At any rate, I hope you weren't frightened off, and allow me to welcome you to the boards.
 
jwu said:
You need physical evidence and I need faith. All of the evolution in the world does not align with the truths revealed in the Word of God. I have no time to waste quibbling about a theory of atheists and humanists. You would not be swayed from your stand anyway. Good luck.
Exactly that is what Saint Augustine was talking about.

Here is the wisdom of the Word of God:

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Hebrews 11:1-3

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6


4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Romans 8:4-9
 
I have just started jumping into this evolution thing so please don't personally attack me jwu.
I didn't mean to attack you personally, and i apologize if it appeared that way. However, as ArtGuy mentioned, you cannot expect people on a discussion forum to remain silent if you post something that they disagree with. Discussion such things is the very pupose of this place after all.

So please just leave it at that and forget I ever posted the notes if you think they are so horribly wrong.
*Sigh*
It's happening again. You're telling me to just ignore what you posted if i disagree. Have you read my explaination of why these arguments don't cut it? You seem to imply that you still consider them valid. Note that by conceding that these particular arguments didn't work you do not automatically have to concede that evolution is correct, just like failure to disprove that the sky is green does not prove that to be the case.

If you really wish to stop the discussion, then i will respect that, but please consider what effect posting things like the one that started this thread will have on non-Christians viewing it. It'll induce thoughts like "if that is all they can come up with, Christianity must be really weak". That's quite damaging to the cause of Christianity. How are these viewers that may well be "on the fence" supposed to take Christianity serious if Christians don't stand up for their arguments in favour of Christianity?





@Solo, Charlie
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Hebrews 11:1-3
Does that not mean that we should not look for physical evidence for God's work? Should someone actually find hard evidence of God's work (the aforementioned "fingerprints"), then he doesn't need faith anymore.
 
jwu said:
@Solo, Charlie
Solo said:
]1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. Hebrews 11:1-3
Does that not mean that we should not look for physical evidence for God's work?
The physical evidence will not contradict the Word of God, but the theories of men will. Those who find their theories contradict the Word of God, twist the Word and say that the revelation of creation can not be a literal revelation.
jwu said:
Should someone actually find hard evidence of God's work (the aforementioned "fingerprints"), then he doesn't need faith anymore.
The hard evidence is all around you, but without faith, you are blinded to it. Unbelief is what the enemy enjoys doleing out for the destruction of those that he can destroy. They are drawn away of their own desires as they operate in the flesh. Those without the Spirit of Jesus Christ cannot walk in any other mode but the flesh. And remember, it is impossible to please God without faith.
 
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