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God is sovereign over the entire universe: Ps 103:19; Rom 8:

JM

Member
God is sovereign over the entire universe: Ps 103:19; Rom 8:28; Eph 1:11
God is sovereign over all of nature: Ps 135:6-7; Mt 5:45; 6:25-30
God is sovereign over angels & Satan: Ps 103:20-21; Job 1:12
God is sovereign over nations: Ps 47:7-9; Dan 2:20-21; 4:34-35
God is sovereign over human beings: 1 Sam 2:6-7; Gal 1:15-16
God is sovereign over animals: Ps 104:21-30; 1 Ki 17:4-6
God is sovereign over "accidents": Pr 16:33; Jon 1:7; Mt 10:29
God is sovereign over free acts of men: Ex 3:21; 12:25-36; Ez 7:27
God is sovereign over sinful acts of men and Satan: 2 Sam 24:1; 1 Chr 21:1; Gen 45:5; 50:20

Open Theism is proven false.
 
Re: God is sovereign over the entire universe: Ps 103:19; Ro

JM said:
God is sovereign over the entire universe: Ps 103:19; Rom 8:28; Eph 1:11
God is sovereign over all of nature: Ps 135:6-7; Mt 5:45; 6:25-30
God is sovereign over angels & Satan: Ps 103:20-21; Job 1:12
God is sovereign over nations: Ps 47:7-9; Dan 2:20-21; 4:34-35
God is sovereign over human beings: 1 Sam 2:6-7; Gal 1:15-16
God is sovereign over animals: Ps 104:21-30; 1 Ki 17:4-6
God is sovereign over "accidents": Pr 16:33; Jon 1:7; Mt 10:29
God is sovereign over free acts of men: Ex 3:21; 12:25-36; Ez 7:27
God is sovereign over sinful acts of men and Satan: 2 Sam 24:1; 1 Chr 21:1; Gen 45:5; 50:20

Then He may have some explaining to do to the starving folks in Africa?
 
Re: God is sovereign over the entire universe: Ps 103:19; Ro

BradtheImpaler said:
JM said:
God is sovereign over the entire universe: Ps 103:19; Rom 8:28; Eph 1:11
God is sovereign over all of nature: Ps 135:6-7; Mt 5:45; 6:25-30
God is sovereign over angels & Satan: Ps 103:20-21; Job 1:12
God is sovereign over nations: Ps 47:7-9; Dan 2:20-21; 4:34-35
God is sovereign over human beings: 1 Sam 2:6-7; Gal 1:15-16
God is sovereign over animals: Ps 104:21-30; 1 Ki 17:4-6
God is sovereign over "accidents": Pr 16:33; Jon 1:7; Mt 10:29
God is sovereign over free acts of men: Ex 3:21; 12:25-36; Ez 7:27
God is sovereign over sinful acts of men and Satan: 2 Sam 24:1; 1 Chr 21:1; Gen 45:5; 50:20

Then He may have some explaining to do to the starving folks in Africa?

God said, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." No human reason was given for liking one over the other, giving to one over the other. Can anyone affect where they're born? Nope. That's God choice. At least, at the end of the day, I can say "God has a plan." All you have is, "why is their starving folks in Africa and why doesn't God help them?"

The root of your question is found in unbelief.
 
Jason has a point.

Here's mine:

We need not look any farther than Mankind to answer that question. God allowed it but didn't cause it to happen. He is not our "cleanup guy". :-?
 
Re: God is sovereign over the entire universe: Ps 103:19; Ro

JM said:
God said, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." No human reason was given for liking one over the other, giving to one over the other. Can anyone affect where they're born? Nope. That's God choice. At least, at the end of the day, I can say "God has a plan." All you have is, "why is their starving folks in Africa and why doesn't God help them?"

Then you can have your blind trust in your god's supposed plan. The rest of us recognize that god's plan is clearly inadequate and/or ineffective, and will do what we can to aid the poor, starving men and women in this world.
 
vic said:
God allowed it but didn't cause it to happen.

How does that somehow make things better? How does that absolve him of responsibility?

I'll give an example. In the movie Spider-man, the title character stands and watches as a man robs someone else and then runs away, literally running right past him (Spider-man). Yet Spider-man allows the man to pass, even though he could have stopped him. We find people culpable in court all the time for things like this - it's called "omission of action". If you have the ability to stop a crime and do not, you can and will be found responsible for it in a court of law.

So it is for your god, except infinitely more so because he is, we are told, infinitely more powerful and capable of stopping crime. Yet he does not. As it has been said, any rational jury would surely find your god guilty billions of times over of gross negligence.
 
If you have the ability to stop a crime and do not, you can and will be found responsible for it in a court of law.
My point exactly! It is OUR responsibility, not His, to clean up the mess we made. We are our brother's keeper, after all. In time though, He will right the wrongs that we seem incapable of doing ourselves.

One more thing:

comments made in your last two posts violate our #1 rule.

Consider this a warning.
 
vic said:
If you have the ability to stop a crime and do not, you can and will be found responsible for it in a court of law.
My point exactly! It is OUR responsibility, not His, to clean up the mess we made. We are our brother's keeper, after all. In time though, He will right the wrongs that we seem incapable of doing ourselves.

But there's the problem. Just look at murder, global warming, starvation, or, heck, any other world problem you'd like to name. It is very clear to me that we are not at all capable of righting these wrongs; for that reason alone we should expect a truly merciful god to have aided us.
 
Re: God is sovereign over the entire universe: Ps 103:19; Ro

JM said:
God is sovereign over the entire universe: Ps 103:19; Rom 8:28; Eph 1:11
God is sovereign over all of nature: Ps 135:6-7; Mt 5:45; 6:25-30
God is sovereign over angels & Satan: Ps 103:20-21; Job 1:12
God is sovereign over nations: Ps 47:7-9; Dan 2:20-21; 4:34-35
God is sovereign over human beings: 1 Sam 2:6-7; Gal 1:15-16
God is sovereign over animals: Ps 104:21-30; 1 Ki 17:4-6
God is sovereign over "accidents": Pr 16:33; Jon 1:7; Mt 10:29
God is sovereign over free acts of men: Ex 3:21; 12:25-36; Ez 7:27
God is sovereign over sinful acts of men and Satan: 2 Sam 24:1; 1 Chr 21:1; Gen 45:5; 50:20

Open Theism is proven false.

This is not even close to a proof. This kind of argument can be made as follows to prove that open theism is in fact correct. Note:

From 2 Kings 20

In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said, "This is what the LORD says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover." 2 Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to the LORD, 3 "Remember, O LORD, how I have walked before you faithfully and with wholehearted devotion and have done what is good in your eyes." And Hezekiah wept bitterly. 4 Before Isaiah had left the middle court, the word of the LORD came to him: 5 "Go back and tell Hezekiah, the leader of my people, 'This is what the LORD, the God of your father David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will heal you. On the third day from now you will go up to the temple of the LORD. 6 I will add fifteen years to your life. And I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria. I will defend this city for my sake and for the sake of my servant David.' " 7 Then Isaiah said, "Prepare a poultice of figs." They did so and applied it to the boil, and he recovered.


From Genesis 22 (story of Abraham intending to sacrfice Isaac)

He said, "Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me."

One cannot simply "quote" verses to establish that open theism is false, for the simple reason that one can "quote verses" (as per the above) that equally show open theism to be true.

Unfortunately, the task before us is a little more complex....
 
Re: God is sovereign over the entire universe: Ps 103:19; Ro

JM said:
God is sovereign over free acts of men: Ex 3:21; 12:25-36; Ez 7:27


What do you mean by, "sovereign over free acts"? Are you denying that we have libertarian free will according to the Bible?

Matthew 23:37 (NASB) Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

The impression given from this verse is that God desires something: "How often I wanted", but because of free will God doesn't get what he wants. Which suggests that God doesn't have control over everything.
 
Re: God is sovereign over the entire universe: Ps 103:19; Ro

God's Sovereignty
by: Allan Turner

http://allanturner.com/calbk_2.html

"In an over-reaction to Calvinist extremes, many Christians have shied away from a study of God's sovereignty. This is a serious mistake. The sovereignty of God is a thoroughly biblical subject. Although the words "sovereign" or "sovereignty" are not found in the KJV, one or both of these words appear in the NKJV, ASV, NIV, and NRSV. Nevertheless, the idea of God's sovereignty is clearly taught in both the Old and New Testament. "Sovereignty," according to the American Heritage Dictionary, means, "Supremacy of authority or rule as exercised by a sovereign." This idea is applied to God by such words as "dominion," "rule," "ruler," "Lord," "King," and "Potentate." As Jack Cottrell points out in his outstanding book What The Bible Says About God The Ruler, "The sovereignty of God may be concisely summed up as absolute Lordship." Sovereignty, then, is equal to lordship, lordship is equal to ownership, and ownership is equal to control. It is precisely at this point that Calvinism strays. We will have more to say about this farther along; but before proceeding on, let us make sure we understand the ramifications of Sovereignty.


The Ramifications Of Sovereignty
If God is truly the Sovereign of the universe, then whatever happens, we are told, is the will of God. A young baby dies of cancer or a young mother or father is seriously injured in an automobile accident and this is said to be God's will. We pray earnestly for a fellow Christian's recovery from a serious illness and in closing our prayer we say, "Not our will but Thine be done." But, recovery does not take place and death occurs. Has God's will really been done? Invariably, at funerals, if one listens to what is being said to the bereaved, one will be heard saying, "It is God's will." Are these things truly God's will, and if so, in what sense?


Repelled by the thought of a loving God being responsible for the death of the innocent and those we love, many Christians have concluded that God is not yet Sovereign Ruler of the universe. Unlike now, one day, they say, God's will is to be done in all things. As sympathetic as we are to their reasons for coming to this conclusion, we are nevertheless convinced that those who hold such a position are terribly wrong. From a biblical standpoint, the sovereignty of God is simply not open for debate. If God is not sovereign, He is clearly not God! Therefore, when I answer "yes" to the question, "Is it true that whatever happens is the will of God?," I must make sure that those who hear me understand that my answer is not an unqualified "yes." Failing to do so would be theologically misleading and personally devastating.

My "yes" is qualified by the fact that there are at least three different senses in which the "will of God" is used in the Bible. When we understand the different ways in which this phrase is used, then we can understand that God is not personally nor directly responsible for the many things people want to either credit or discredit Him with, even though it remains true that everything that happens ultimately falls within His sovereignty.


God's Decretive Will
There are things that God decrees to happen. He causes these things to happen by His own omnipotence. These can be described as God's decretive will. A biblical description of God's decretive will is found in Psalm 33:11, which says: "The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the plans of His heart from generation to generation," and again in Isaiah 14:27, which says: "For the Lord of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back?"

It was God's decretive will that was at work in His scheme to redeem mankind through His Son Jesus Christ.1 For the Bible believer, it is a given that whatever God purposes cannot be thwarted. For example, in Romans 8:28-30, we learn that God has decreed that He will justify, and one day glorify, certain foreknown individuals (viz., "whosoever will") on the basis of a foreordained Christ,2 a foreordained gospel plan,3 and a foreordained life.4 With this fact firmly established, the apostle Paul joyously affirms, "If God is for us, who can be against us?"5

In like manner, the doctrine of the resurrection rests firmly on God's decretive will. In John 6:40, Jesus said, "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day." Again, "If God is for us, who can be against us?" Whatever God proposes, and Himself carries out, will, in fact, happen. This is the reason why God can assert that He declares "the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure.'"6 This is God's decretive will.


God's Preceptive Will
But there is a second way in which the "will of God" is used in the Bible. This has to do not with what God purposed to do Himself, but with what He desires for man to do. This can be described as God's preceptive will and is primarily concerned with man's obedience to His word or precepts. The writer of Hebrews speaks of the "will of God" in this sense when he writes, "For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise."7 It was in this sense that the Lord used the expression in Matthew 7:21: "Not every who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." When Jesus said "the will of My Father," He was speaking of God's precepts, statutes, or commandments. Consequently, it is in connection with God's preceptive will, and not His decretive will, that man is commanded to "work out [his] own salvation with fear and trembling."8

Furthermore, it is in connection with God's preceptive will that we understand that the Lord is "longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."9 Actually, God's desire (i.e., His will) for the salvation of all men is reflected many places in His word,10 but such must be kept distinct from His decretive will. A failure to make such a distinction will cause one to land squarely within the Calvinist camp.


God's Permissive Will
There is a third sense in which the "will of God" is used in the Scriptures. It can be described as God's permissive will. Perhaps it is with God's permissive will that men have the most trouble. In this category are to be found all those things which God neither purposes nor desires, but which he allows man, in his freedom, to bring about.11 That which makes this third category different from the second is not the presence of God's permission, but the absence of a stated desire on God's part that these events or circumstances should happen. In this category are events God neither purposed nor desired, but, nevertheless, permits, including some things that are clearly contrary to His stated desire (will), such as man's sins. Therefore, when, in Jeremiah 19:5, God said, "They have also built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or speak, nor did it come into my mind," He made it plain that it was not His will they were doing, whether decretive or preceptive. In other words, it was not the mind (will) of God that they should do such a thing. Nevertheless, the Lord permitted His people to exercise their free wills and do those things clearly contrary to His counsel (will). Things such as this are within the "will of God" only in the sense that He permits them to happen.12

God's permissive will allows both bad and good things to occur. It is used by Paul in this latter sense in 1 Corinthians 16:7, when he writes: "For I do not wish to see you now on the way; but I hope to stay a while with you, if the Lord permits." Again, he uses it this way when, in Acts 18:21, he writes: "I must by all means keep this coming feast in Jerusalem; but I will return again to you, God willing." The writer of Hebrews put it this way: "And this we will do if God permits."13

Of course, sometimes the Lord does not will (permit) something to happen that His creatures desire to happen. As Sovereign, He has the perfect right to do so. For example, in Acts 16:7, Luke writes: "After they had come to Mysia they tried to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit did not permit them." And, according to James, the height of man's prideful arrogance is manifested by the one who does not take into consideration the fact that his desires may be, and sometimes are, superseded by the Sovereign Ruler of the universe.14


Control Not Causation
Calvinists have thought that the key to sovereignty is causation. They are wrong. The key to sovereignty is ultimate control. Through His absolute foreknowledge of every plan of man's heart, and through His absolute ability (omnipotence) to either permit or prevent any particular plan man may have, God maintains complete control (sovereignty) over His creation. The power to prevent means that God ultimately has the final word in everything that happens. To deny this is to deny the sovereignty of God!

It is true, then, that whatever happens is God's will. Everything that transpires falls within the sovereign will of God in one sense or another. However, it is absolutely crucial to understand that there are three different senses in which this may be true: (1) Sometimes a thing occurs because God decides it will happen, and then He makes it happen. This we have called God's decretive will and it seems to be limited mostly to His working out the "scheme of redemption." (2) Sometimes a thing occurs because God desires it and man decides, of his own free will, to do what God desires. This we have identified as God's preceptive will and has to do with God's commandments or precepts. (3) Sometimes a thing occurs because of the agency of an individual or group of individuals, and God permits it to happen. We have called this God's permissive will. Included in this category are sinful or careless acts like murder, or the death of one caused by the actions of a drunken driver. Even tragedies that occur through the natural processes would fit in this category. All three of these categories can be classified as "God's will," but only the first category is God's will in any causative sense. And even though God is Sovereign Ruler of the universe, categories two and three remind us that we must allow the Sovereign Ruler to respect the integrity of the freedom He has so graciously accorded His creation. As His creatures, we must learn to trust God's wisdom in knowing what good can be drawn from the tragic episodes He permits to take place in category three."
 
Re: God is sovereign over the entire universe: Ps 103:19; Ro

Control Not Causation
Calvinists have thought that the key to sovereignty is causation. They are wrong. The key to sovereignty is ultimate control. Through His absolute foreknowledge of every plan of man's heart, and through His absolute ability (omnipotence) to either permit or prevent any particular plan man may have, God maintains complete control (sovereignty) over His creation.

The article was arguing that God's sovereignty is compatible with free will. The article isn't, however, supportive of open theism: "Through His absolute foreknowledge...". It seems to say that complete foreknowledge is required for God's sovereignty. I have my doubts about this claim.

God is understood to be self-existent. God has created everything, and holds everything in existence. If God is really in such a position, there seems to be little chance of much threat to his sovereignty, in that God will inevitably have a very great degree of control. With that said, I believe that an open theist shouldn't find it too difficult to put forward a coherent interpretation of God's sovereignty.
 
Re: God is sovereign over the entire universe: Ps 103:19; Ro

undertow said:
God is understood to be self-existent. God has created everything, and holds everything in existence. If God is really in such a position, there seems to be little chance of much threat to his sovereignty, in that God will inevitably have a very great degree of control. With that said, I believe that an open theist shouldn't find it too difficult to put forward a coherent interpretation of God's sovereignty.
I agree with you, undertow. I am quite sympathetic to open theism, and if I were forced to gamble my paycheck on this doctrine, I would indeed go with it. But I may change my mind.

I believe that it is our lack of imagination that has given rise to this extremely "strict" version of sovereignty in which God has to be control of every minute event in the universe. As I have argued in past threads, consider a situation where I sit down to play chess against the greatest grandmaster (I only know the rules - nothing more). Obviously, I am free at any time to make any legal move I wish, so the the grandmaster is not in control of everything. And yet his victory is assured. Why? Because, as you allude to, the grandmaster has overwhelming control (not complete control).

I actually think a serious investigation of this controversy will lead inevitably to some rather technical issues. For example: In the chess analogy, just how good does the grandmaster need to be to assure victory every time we play. I would caution objectors from presuming that victory is not assured unless the grandmaster controls everything.

By the same token, I fully admit that my "chess" argument rests on an "intuition" and, in order to give it more credibility, I need to provide a more robust argument to support my claim that the grandmaster will alway beat me (although on this point, the analogy loses it force since I suspect all will agree that God is more "powerful" relative to us than a grandmaster would be relative to me).
 
Nov, once again you show that you follow the 'spirit of this world'. That is EXACTLY what Satan would have us do: 'Let us 'blame' God for that which WE have caused'.

We were PLAINLY told to suffer one that would abuse us or steal from us or kill us. This life is ONLY for a moment and then there WILL be another. It is this 'other life' that is SO much MORE important than this. For those that live for the 'world', THIS life is ALL they are capable of comprehending. Therefore they COVET it for ALL IT'S WORTH. They CRINGE at the thought of 'losing this life' for THAT IS ALL THEY KNOW. I can't say that I could 'blame' someone for coveting something that they believe is ALL there is.

Those that KNOW God, on the other hand, realize that 'this life' is ONLY the 'beginning'. There IS a continuation of life after the 'flesh' is 'dead'. That is how they understand that God is NOT the CAUSE of the pain and suffering on this planet. WE ARE. People too foolish to refrain from having 'babies in the desert'. People that are too greedy to help others. Those that care ONLY for themselves. The list is endless.

But Nov, one day ALL this suffering on this planet WILL END. We are simply NOT QUITE READY, yet. And when it does, there WILL be PEACE, and LOVE, and we will NEVER thirst or hunger again. The sad thing is that there WILL be those that refuse this 'promise'. For them, I leave it up to the Father to decide their fate.
 
vic said:
If you have the ability to stop a crime and do not, you can and will be found responsible for it in a court of law.

My point exactly! It is OUR responsibility, not His, to clean up the mess we made. We are our brother's keeper, after all. In time though, He will right the wrongs that we seem incapable of doing ourselves.

What does that do for the ones starving NOW? If you were all-powerful, and capable of sending "manna from heaven" to feed millions of starving children, and didn't, would you consider yourself a compassionate being?
 
Imagican said:
Nov, once again you show that you follow the 'spirit of this world'. That is EXACTLY what Satan would have us do: 'Let us 'blame' God for that which WE have caused'.

Please demonstrate where I have ever "blamed" your god for anything or subscribed to any fictitious "spirit of this world".

Actually, don't bother. I'll save you the trouble of searching through my previous posts and simply inform you that you are, once again, full of crap.

We were PLAINLY told to suffer one that would abuse us or steal from us or kill us. This life is ONLY for a moment and then there WILL be another. It is this 'other life' that is SO much MORE important than this. For those that live for the 'world', THIS life is ALL they are capable of comprehending. Therefore they COVET it for ALL IT'S WORTH. They CRINGE at the thought of 'losing this life' for THAT IS ALL THEY KNOW. I can't say that I could 'blame' someone for coveting something that they believe is ALL there is.

Please demonstrate where I have ever "cringed" at such a thought.

Actually, don't bother. I'll save you the trouble of searching through my previous posts and simply inform you that you are, once again, full of crap.

Those that KNOW God, on the other hand, realize that 'this life' is ONLY the 'beginning'. There IS a continuation of life after the 'flesh' is 'dead'. That is how they understand that God is NOT the CAUSE of the pain and suffering on this planet. WE ARE. People too foolish to refrain from having 'babies in the desert'. People that are too greedy to help others. Those that care ONLY for themselves. The list is endless.

Babies in the desert? What the heck are you smoking now, Imagican?

But Nov, one day ALL this suffering on this planet WILL END. We are simply NOT QUITE READY, yet. And when it does, there WILL be PEACE, and LOVE, and we will NEVER thirst or hunger again. The sad thing is that there WILL be those that refuse this 'promise'. For them, I leave it up to the Father to decide their fate.

You, and those like you, have been failing to predict the end of the world for more than 2000 years now. You offer nothing but false hopes in your attempts to prey on and take advantage of those you consider to be weak.
 
This is what YOU said:

But there's the problem. Just look at murder, global warming, starvation, or, heck, any other world problem you'd like to name. It is very clear to me that we are not at all capable of righting these wrongs; for that reason alone we should expect a truly merciful god to have aided us.

Now Nov, if that isn't a clear indication of YOUR decptive offerings, I don't know what would be. You have, right in this quote, blammed God for NOT fixing 'all the problems of the world'. If you feel that He is ABLE to fix them, you are obviously blamming Him for being present. It is you my friend that is 'full of something' but I recognize exactly what it is that you're 'full of'. It is pride and hate and anger and lust. Let it go, my friend and ask God for forgiveness. Then you WILL be FREE. Free from all the hate and anger. Free to offer love instead of lust. Free from the false pride of the flesh that makes ONESELF God instead of the Creator.

You speak with the wisdom of this world. It is but a 'toy' of children that rebel against ALL that is 'truth'. Darkness and hunger is ALL that is obtainable for those that dwell there.

I guess you think that you offer something of 'substance' as you post on these threads. There ARE probably some, like you, that come here fishing for the 'little ones'. And you may even 'catch one' now and then. But the big ones will ALWAYS be 'those that got away'. The problem is the 'tackle' that you choose to use. It's inadequate to 'land the BIG ones'. Only weak and puny ones will your tactics snare.

You accuse me of 'trying' to ensnare the weak. No my friend. It is not I that is able to offer the 'gift' that I speak of. I am but a humble messenger. I have absoutely NOTHING to gain by offering the 'truth'. I charge NOTHING and freely offer it with endless patience. It is YOU who hope to ensnare. Spitting out your words of hate. Hate towards your Creator and hate towards your fellow man. One day you WILL regret what you offer now.

I would 'save' you that remorse. Get it over with. Let it go and bow down to your Maker. No, not 'your leader', your 'true' Maker. He has more love for you than you can imagine. All you need do is ASK and He will deliver you from the bondage that you have designed for yourself. He CAN deliver you from the spirit that you follow. All you have to do is WANT that deliverance.
 
Imagican said:
This is what YOU said:

But there's the problem. Just look at murder, global warming, starvation, or, heck, any other world problem you'd like to name. It is very clear to me that we are not at all capable of righting these wrongs; for that reason alone we should expect a truly merciful god to have aided us.

Now Nov, if that isn't a clear indication of YOUR decptive offerings, I don't know what would be. You have, right in this quote, blammed God for NOT fixing 'all the problems of the world'. If you feel that He is ABLE to fix them, you are obviously blamming Him for being present.

Wrong, sorry.

I'm not talking about your god, or any particular god at all. I said a god, and I stand by what I said. If there was such a god in existence, then we should expect him to offer assistance.

You remain, as always, full of crap. You simply cannot stop making lies up about me.

It is you my friend that is 'full of something' but I recognize exactly what it is that you're 'full of'. It is pride and hate and anger and lust. Let it go, my friend and ask God for forgiveness. Then you WILL be FREE. Free from all the hate and anger. Free to offer love instead of lust. Free from the false pride of the flesh that makes ONESELF God instead of the Creator.

You sound like Morpheus, from The Matrix. :lol:

You speak with the wisdom of this world. It is but a 'toy' of children that rebel against ALL that is 'truth'. Darkness and hunger is ALL that is obtainable for those that dwell there.

I guess you think that you offer something of 'substance' as you post on these threads. There ARE probably some, like you, that come here fishing for the 'little ones'. And you may even 'catch one' now and then. But the big ones will ALWAYS be 'those that got away'. The problem is the 'tackle' that you choose to use. It's inadequate to 'land the BIG ones'. Only weak and puny ones will your tactics snare.

You accuse me of 'trying' to ensnare the weak. No my friend. It is not I that is able to offer the 'gift' that I speak of. I am but a humble messenger.

Blah blah blah blah, more delusional babble we've heard before.

I have absoutely NOTHING to gain by offering the 'truth'.

Then what the heck are you doing here? You appear to be contradicting yourself again...

II would 'save' you that remorse. Get it over with. Let it go and bow down to your Maker. No, not 'your leader', your 'true' Maker. He has more love for you than you can imagine. All you need do is ASK and He will deliver you from the bondage that you have designed for yourself. He CAN deliver you from the spirit that you follow. All you have to do is WANT that deliverance.

I do not desire your fairytale story of salvation in heaven; it is not attractive to me and I have posted elsewhere my reasons why. I have not suffered at all, in any way perceivable to me, because of my lack of a belief in any god.

Your god, who is clearly very important to your life, seems to have made himself completely irrelevant to billions of other lives - including mine.
 
we should expect him to offer assistance.
Your expectations of God differ greatly from ours. Yours is more like those Hebrews and Jews from Biblical times.

The Hebrews, not remembering what God has done for them in Egypt, adopted their "God for a day" mentality. What have You done for me today, Lord was their attitude. Enough to make John F. Kennedy turn in his grave it were possible. While Moses was up in the Mount. they were at the bottom having their own way with their Idol god.

They expected Jesus to come 2,000 years ago.and make all things right. Which brings me to a point;

God did do something to fix things. In effect, He "fixed" us. Jesus' death and victory over death was also our victory from this fallen world. Whether or not you believe that is affected by your expectations of God. In essence, it is your stumbling block.

You remain, as always, full of crap. You simply cannot stop making lies up about me.

Blah blah blah blah, more delusional babble we've heard before.

I do not desire your fairytale story of salvation in heaven
Well, this doesn't help your status here much, does it? Today IS Independence Day in the US; we could grant you your independence today too, if you choose. :-?
 
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