Bible Study God Preordains, Predestines, Chooses, Rejects, and Foreknows

[cgaviria]

I would like to open a discussion with the following study,

Understanding that all things have been appointed by God is a deep knowledge that anyone seeking wisdom must understand. Why is this of such importance? Because without knowing that all things are appointed by him, do you not know why things are made the way they are. Without knowing this, you can't answer questions like, "why is there disease in the world?", or "why is the world fallen?", or "why is there sin in the world?". Lets first look at this scripture,

No one is able to come to me unless the father, the one having sent me, should draw him; and I will raise him up in the last day. (John 6:44 [ABP])

Notice how nobody can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him. So if indeed you did choose to follow Jesus, it was really because the Father drew you to him. So what can be said if you chose not to follow Jesus? Then it was because the Father did not draw you. Our choices demonstrate him either drawing us, or rejecting us. Do we know that the Father also rejects as opposed to drawing closer? Lets look at this verse,

[12] and it was said to her that, The greater shall serve the lesser. [13] As it has been written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I detested.
(Romans 9:12-13 [ABP])

So already before the twins were even born and able to choose anything, was one said to be lesser and one said to be greater, and was one said would serve the other, and subsequently, because of this predeclaration, was it then revealed that it was because one was loved and one was hated beforehand. So it is in fact nothing that you do that has caused him to choose you or reject you. As Paul even affirms,

So then it is not of the one wanting, nor of the one running, but of the showing mercy of God. (Romans 9:16 [ABP])

The one whom God shows mercy to, and the one whom he chooses to love, is the one whom he draws closer. And even before this Paul also affirms that God indeed shows mercy on whomever he pleases,

For to Moses he says, I will show mercy on whom ever I should show mercy, and I shall pity whom ever I should pity. (Romans 9:15 [ABP])

It is in fact the prerogative of God to show mercy on whomever he shows mercy and to show pity on whomever he shows pity. And we even have this scripture,

So then whom he wants, he shows mercy; but whom he wants, he hardens. (Romans 9:18 [ABP])

So if in fact you you choose to reject God, it is because he was the one that hardened you to do so. But why does he harden and reject one might ask? Lets look at this verse,

For the scripture says to Pharaoh that, For this same thing I awakened you, so that I should demonstrate in you my power, and so that I should declare my name in all the earth. (Romans 9:17 [ABP])

He hardened Pharaoh to not let his people go so that through Pharaoh he could demonstrate his mighty judgments, his deliverance, and power, as it even said here,

[3] But I will harden the heart of Pharaoh, and I will multiply my signs, and the miracles in the land of Egypt. [4] And Pharaoh will not listen to you, and I will put my hand against Egypt, and I will lead out with my powermy people the sons of Israel from out of the land of Egypt with great punishment. [5] And all the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, stretching out my hand against Egypt; and I will lead the sons of Israel from their midst.
(Exodus 7:3-5 [ABP])

So then one might ask, if he is the one that hardens us to reject him, why then does he find fault in us? These were the same questions Paul mentions,

You will say then to me, Why yet does he complain? For who has opposed his will? (Romans 9:19 [ABP])

And how does Paul respond to this?

Certainly, O man, who are you the one answering to God? Shall the thing shaped say to the one shaping, Why have you made me thus? (Romans 9:20 [ABP])

So in fact Paul is affirming, who are we to question God as to why he finds fault if he made us this way? He has every right and authority to find fault in whatever he creates, because he is the creator. Notice how Paul then says,

Or has not the potter authority of the clay, from out of the same batch, to make the one indeed for a vessel of honor, and the other for dishonor? (Romans 9:21 [ABP])

So in his authority he has created of vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor, and then Paul goes on to say,

[22] And if God wanting to demonstrate the wrath, and to make known his might, he bore with much leniency vessels of wrath being readied for destruction; [23] and that he should make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory,
(Romans 9:22-23 [ABP])

So who are these created vessels of wrath readied for destruction? Sinners who reject him and continue on in their sins. And why have they been appointed to sin? So that God may demonstrate his justice, his judgments, and his power through them. In creating sinners, is he then able to exact justice and punishment on those who acted wickedly and rejected him. If he hadn't created sinners, how else could he demonstrate punishment and justice for sins if everyone was made righteous? Even this old proverb holds true,

The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble. (Proverbs 16:4 [ESV])

Going further, if he hadn't created sinners, then he would not have been able to demonstrate his deliverance of the children of Israel from the hands of the Egyptians. If he hadn't created sinners, he would not have been able to demonstrate his power and judgments against the Egyptians. So creation itself has been submitted to futility and to the slavery of sin, so that not only may God demonstrate his judgment and power against it, but that he may also demonstrate his power to set it free, as even this verse says,

[20] For to vanity the creation was submitted, not willingly, but through the one submitting it, upon hope; [21] that even the creation itself shall be freed from the slavery of corruption, unto the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
(Romans 8:20-21 [ABP])

We even have this scripture indicating that God has made what he has created crooked,

Consider the work of God: who can make straight what he has made crooked? (Ecclesiastes 7:13 [ESV])

But what of the vessels of mercy and honor? He has also made sinners so that he can demonstrate mercy and forgiveness on them. How else could God demonstrate forgiveness if he hadn't created sinners that commit sins to be forgiven? And in demonstrating his mercy and forgiveness, does he also demonstrate his favor. We also have an instance when Moses was speaking to God concerning his commission to go forth and speak to Pharaoh, and he said,

And Moses said to the LORD, I beseech, O LORD, I am not fit before yesterday nor before the third day, nor from which time you began to speak to your attendant, for I am weak voiced and slow of tongue. (Exodus 4:10 [ABP])

And how does God respond?

Then the LORD said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the LORD? (Exodus 4:11 [ESV])

So it is in fact God who makes the mute, the deaf, and the blind. But why does he do this? So that he may show his power to heal, as Jesus even says,

[2] And his disciples asked him, saying, Rabbi, Who sinned, this one or his parents, that he was born blind? [3] Jesus answered, Neither this one sinned, nor his parents; but that should be made manifest the works of God in him.
(John 9:2-3 [ABP])

[6] These things having said, he spit on the ground and he made mud from out of the spittle, and he smeared the mud upon the eyes of the blind man. [7] And he said to him, Go wash in the pool of Siloam! which is translated, Being sent. He went forth then and washed, and came seeing.
(John 9:6-7 [ABP])

So not only do we know that the Father has created all sinners to demonstrate wrath or mercy, but he has also created the sick so that through them he may demonstrate his power to heal, and that he also exhibits control over the hearts of man to either cause them to draw closer or further away from him. Paul again declares,

For from out of him and through him and unto him are all things. To him be the glory into the eons. Amen. (Romans 11:36 [ABP])

From out of the Father and through the Father and for the Father have all things been predetermined... all things, down to every blink of your eye and to the falling of every leaf of all trees. All things have been preordained before the foundation of the world. How do we know that this scripture was referring to predetermination and not just the creation of things? Because of this verse that precedes it,

For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. (Romans 11:32 [ESV])

So again, this verse is in fact conveying that God has sold all men to disobedience, so that he may then show mercy on all, and in this is the predetermination of God is also conveyed, not only in this verse, but also in the verses that follow. Going further, throughout various scriptures we also see indicated that God chooses and God preordains,

[4] as he chose us in him before the founding of the world, for us to be holy and unblemished before him in love. [5] Having predefined us for adoption through Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good-pleasure of his will,
(Ephesians 1:4-5 [ABP])

 

[Butch5]

It seems to me that you have many of these passages out context. For instance When Jesus said, 'no comes to Me unless the Father draws him' He was speaking to those people in front of Him. According to Isaiah, the Jews were partially blinded and therefore only those the Father specifically chose to open their eyes could come to Jesus. This was not a statement for the ages but rather was specific to the events at hand. This is confirmed with Jesus' words that when lifted up He would draw all to Himself.

31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die. (Jn. 12:31-33 KJV)

So, you see, this drawing of the Father changed at the cross. It seems to me you've done the same with the passages in Romans. It seems that you've chosen what you want to say and then found passages of Scripture to fit it. Using that methodology I could take an American history book and make a case that the British won the American revolution.

 

[cgaviria]

It seems to me that you have many of these passages out context. For instance When Jesus said, 'no comes to Me unless the Father draws him' He was speaking to those people in front of Him. According to Isaiah, the Jews were partially blinded and therefore only those the Father specifically chose to open their eyes could come to Jesus. This was not a statement for the ages but rather was specific to the events at hand. This is confirmed with Jesus' words that when lifted up He would draw all to Himself.

31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33 This he said, signifying what death he should die. (Jn. 12:31-33 KJV)

So, you see, this drawing of the Father changed at the cross. It seems to me you've done the same with the passages in Romans. It seems that you've chosen what you want to say and then found passages of Scripture to fit it. Using that methodology I could take an American history book and make a case that the British won the American revolution.

I have or you have? Drawing all men to him was done by the Father. There is nothing that happens that wasn't first ordained by him.

 

[Chopper]

God created sinners? Oh boy, this ought to be good.

 

[Butch5]

I have or you have? Drawing all men to him was done by the Father. There is nothing that happens that wasn't first ordained by him.

Jesus said He would do the drawing and HIs words were those of the Father. However, your other statement, "There is nothing that happens that wasn't first ordained by him", is an arbitrary statement. You've given no proof that this is the case. Actually, we find the opposite in the Scriptures.

30 For the children of Judah have done evil in my sight, saith the LORD: they have set their abominations in the house which is called by my name, to pollute it.
31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart. (Jer. 7:30-31 KJV)

 

[Chopper]

I have a real problem with your idea of God creating sinners. My first thought is found in Acts 10:34 "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:" For God to demonstrate His power on a few people for His own glory I can see. But for the rest of mankind your position makes Him a respecter of people. Now, in my mind, you have set up Pharaoh as a standard for all humans that are not predestined before the foundations of the earth. In other words, the elect are the only ones to be saved, all others are created to be sinners so that God can be

he would not have been able to demonstrate his power and judgments

Wow, the rubber is not on the road on that one.

James 1:13 "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:"
For God to create sinners, He would have to tempt all except the elect to sin.

John 3:14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." In order to create sinners, He would have had to condemn those people.

So, Scripture says Jesus wants the "Whosoever" and the "world" not to perish. That is not creating sinners. Plus 2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." If God creates everyone other than the elect to be sinners Peter was wrong, unless you feel that these Scriptures are only addressing the elect which just isn't true.

You mentioned the blind. John 9:3 "Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him."
Opps, this man didn't sin. He was either the elect or God didn't create a sinner. Hey, a few people were selected by God to demonstrate His power over nature (a miracle) and in the case of Pharaoh.

GOD DOES NOT CREATE SINNERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[cgaviria]

I have a real problem with your idea of God creating sinners. My first thought is found in Acts 10:34 "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:" For God to demonstrate His power on a few people for His own glory I can see. But for the rest of mankind your position makes Him a respecter of people. Now, in my mind, you have set up Pharaoh as a standard for all humans that are not predestined before the foundations of the earth. In other words, the elect are the only ones to be saved, all others are created to be sinners so that God can be Wow, the rubber is not on the road on that one.

James 1:13 "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:"
For God to create sinners, He would have to tempt all except the elect to sin.

John 3:14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." In order to create sinners, He would have had to condemn those people.

So, Scripture says Jesus wants the "Whosoever" and the "world" not to perish. That is not creating sinners. Plus 2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." If God creates everyone other than the elect to be sinners Peter was wrong, unless you feel that these Scriptures are only addressing the elect which just isn't true.

You mentioned the blind. John 9:3 "Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him."
Opps, this man didn't sin. He was either the elect or God didn't create a sinner. Hey, a few people were selected by God to demonstrate His power over nature (a miracle) and in the case of Pharaoh.

GOD DOES NOT CREATE SINNERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

God himself does not tempt, yet he has sold the entire world over to disobedience, that he may show mercy on all, as it is said,

For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. (Romans 11:32 [NIV])

The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble. (Proverbs 16:4 [ESV])

These are true teachings of scripture, and if you can't understand this, there are also other matters you cannot understand. This is why the fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, because in understanding all these things, do you then truly fear God knowing that all things have been appointed by him, and then do you finally begin to attain wisdom. You will never attain wisdom not knowing these realities.

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding. (Proverbs 9:10 [NIV])

Consider what God has done: Who can straighten what he has made crooked? (Ecclesiastes 7:13 [NIV])

 

[Butch5]

God himself does not tempt, yet he has sold the entire world over to disobedience, that he may show mercy on all, as it is said,



These are true teachings of scripture, and if you can't understand this, there are also other matters you cannot understand. This is why the fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, because in understanding all these things, do you then truly fear God knowing that all things have been appointed by him, and then do you finally begin to attain wisdom. You will never attain wisdom not knowing these realities.

Can you address those passages within the context in which they were written? To pull one sentence from it's context and say this is what it means makes you claim dubious.

 

[cgaviria]

Can you address those passages within the context in which they were written? To pull one sentence from it's context and say this is what it means makes you claim dubious.

I have already, hence the start of this thread. I go into great detail.

 

[Chopper]

God himself does not tempt, yet he has sold the entire world over to disobedience, that he may show mercy on all, as it is said,



These are true teachings of scripture, and if you can't understand this, there are also other matters you cannot understand. This is why the fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, because in understanding all these things, do you then truly fear God knowing that all things have been appointed by him, and then do you finally begin to attain wisdom. You will never attain wisdom not knowing these realities.

Try being nice for a change. It's not me that doesn't understand!!

 

[cgaviria]

Try being nice for a change. It's not me that doesn't understand!!

I'm a gentle person, but I do speak with strong words. I also do esteem older gentlemen as I see from your picture, so please, do not think I am attacking you. However, this is a matter you ought to really study and let simmer in your head, as it is indeed a biblical teaching.

 

[iLOVE]

Titus 2:11-14 (NIV) - For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope-the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

 

[AirDancer]

If our Lord God did not desire that all be with Him, our Lord Jesus certainly wouldn't have imparted what is referred to as the 'Great Commission':

Matthew 28: 16-20 (NASB):

16 But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated.
17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful.
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

 

[LovethroughDove]

Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.

So what is that plan?

Matthew 13:37-39 He answered, "The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of age, and the harvesters are angels.

The Father draws us to Christ. John 6:44 So, The Light draws good seed to it.

Jesus is the Light and the Father is the Light.
John 8:12 & 1 John 1:5

Since the field is the world, God will harvest the amount he predestined from the world.

 

[Chopper]

I'm a gentle person, but I do speak with strong words. I also do esteem older gentlemen as I see from your picture, so please, do not think I am attacking you. However, this is a matter you ought to really study and let simmer in your head, as it is indeed a biblical teaching.

O my Brother. You will never know the trials and victory that this old country preacher has experienced since 1974 when I gave my entire self to Jesus the Son of God. You and I seem to clash over certain Scriptures of which I grieve over. I just want you to know that when you state your belief on some subjects, something inside my mind rejects it and other Scripture comes to my mind to suggest another path. These white hairs on my head tell a story of wisdom from the Almighty Elohim.

Back a while ago, the thought came to me, "what causes sin" I knew it was the Lord communicating to me because I'm used to His voice to my heart/mind. I thought, "That's strange? Ok, James has something to say about that." James 1:14 "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust (desire), and enticed. 1:15 Then when lust (desire) hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

I don't think I had ever meditated on the word "desire". oh my! desire! Ever since the Garden of Eden, man has responded to his desires more than his obedience to God's Commands, statues, and rules. Even Jesus the Son of God taught serious Commands on the Sermon on the mount. Why does man's desires void God's will? Because desire is the strongest voice that comes from the heart/mind.

I love you my Brother. I may not agree with some of what you write and that's because I see Scripture from past studies that conflict. Lets say that you and I "reason together" rather than accuse each other of not understanding God's ways. We both can learn, I'm sure.

For years, in three Baptist Churches, I was known as a "Holiness Baptist" and I met James Reynolds in Portland, Maine who was a "Holiness Pentecostal" preacher/evangelist. I spent a little over a year at his Church and Bible Institute. Our reason for our fellowship was so he could learn some important Baptist doctrine and I could learn important Pentecostal doctrine. We both came away with a fresh understanding that our traditions missed. It was valuable!

Unfortunately, my Baptist Brothers labeled me as a Bapti-Costal and ceased fellowship with me. That hurt, but God blessed.

 

[cgaviria]

O my Brother. You will never know the trials and victory that this old country preacher has experienced since 1974 when I gave my entire self to Jesus the Son of God. You and I seem to clash over certain Scriptures of which I grieve over. I just want you to know that when you state your belief on some subjects, something inside my mind rejects it and other Scripture comes to my mind to suggest another path. These white hairs on my head tell a story of wisdom from the Almighty Elohim.

Back a while ago, the thought came to me, "what causes sin" I knew it was the Lord communicating to me because I'm used to His voice to my heart/mind. I thought, "That's strange? Ok, James has something to say about that." James 1:14 "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust (desire), and enticed. 1:15 Then when lust (desire) hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

I don't think I had ever meditated on the word "desire". oh my! desire! Ever since the Garden of Eden, man has responded to his desires more than his obedience to God's Commands, statues, and rules. Even Jesus the Son of God taught serious Commands on the Sermon on the mount. Why does man's desires void God's will? Because desire is the strongest voice that comes from the heart/mind.

I love you my Brother. I may not agree with some of what you write and that's because I see Scripture from past studies that conflict. Lets say that you and I "reason together" rather than accuse each other of not understanding God's ways. We both can learn, I'm sure.

For years, in three Baptist Churches, I was known as a "Holiness Baptist" and I met James Reynolds in Portland, Maine who was a "Holiness Pentecostal" preacher/evangelist. I spent a little over a year at his Church and Bible Institute. Our reason for our fellowship was so he could learn some important Baptist doctrine and I could learn important Pentecostal doctrine. We both came away with a fresh understanding that our traditions missed. It was valuable!

Unfortunately, my Baptist Brothers labeled me as a Bapti-Costal and ceased fellowship with me. That hurt, but God blessed.

Sir, you are indeed correct about the James 1:14 verse that all men sin because of their evil desire within, which is the root of sin. However, what you are not realizing is that there is a power granted that removes these inner desires that cause sin, in one instant, not gradually, but in one moment. Do you know what this moment is?

 

[cgaviria]

If our Lord God did not desire that all be with Him, our Lord Jesus certainly wouldn't have imparted what is referred to as the 'Great Commission':

Matthew 28: 16-20 (NASB):

16 But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated.
17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful.
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

We are all called to be laborers of the harvest, hence the great commission, yet it is God that brings forth his own harvest regardless of what we do,

I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. (1 Corinthians 3:7 [NIV])

 

[Chopper]

Sir, you are indeed correct about the James 1:14 verse that all men sin because of their evil desire within, which is the root of sin. However, what you are not realizing is that there is a power granted that removes these inner desires that cause sin, in one instant, not gradually, but in one moment. Do you know what this moment is?

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

 

[cgaviria]

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

You quoted a scripture rightly speaking of this, but do you understand what it means? At what moment is one declared to be walking in spirit and not in flesh any longer?

 

[Chopper]

Sir, you are indeed correct about the James 1:14 verse that all men sin because of their evil desire within, which is the root of sin. However, what you are not realizing is that there is a power granted that removes these inner desires that cause sin, in one instant, not gradually, but in one moment. Do you know what this moment is?

If we are going to have any kind of fellowship in this Forum, you're going to have to stop addressing me as if I don't have ample information. Why do you feel that you hold more wisdom and knowledge than those who communicate with you. Every time you say, "However, what you are not realizing is that" how do you know that I don't realize that? That comes across as arrogance to me. That is disrespectful to a man that has perhaps three times the spiritual experience than you have had.

For your own good, to me and others on this Forum, change how you perceive each person, and honor each person. To honor a person, you must treat that person not only how you would like to be treated but better. I wonder if you are capable, I hope so.