God Shouldn't?

[Shana]

Does God have the right to force His will on us or not? What do you believe and why? Please remember to follow the guidelines for the discussions if you decide to post. Thanks and God bless.

 

[bbas 64]

Good Day,

"The Sovereignty of God is the stumbling block on which thousands fall and perish; and if we go contending with God about His sovereignty it will be our eternal ruin. It is absolutely necessary that we should submit to God as an absolute sovereign, and the sovereign of our souls; as one who may have mercy on whom He will have mercy and harden whom He will"


Jonathan Edwards

He is sovereign in all things we are not, His sovereignty is his right as the creator. He is the potter, if he freely choses to enforce his will he is just in doing so.

The day you die and leave this earth is based on his will for you as his creation, you have no power to change that decree.

Bill

 

[JM]

"Their foot shall slide in due time" Deut. 32:35

 

[Shana]

Thank you for sharing Bill. You may want to check with the moderators about using quotes from other sources, but I agree that God has sovereign rights over His own creatures and to force His will on His creatures. God bless.

 

[JM]

Thank you for sharing Bill. You may want to check with the mods about using quotes from other sources, but I agree that God has all rights over His own creatures and to force His will on His creatures. God bless.

Are we not allowed to quote anymore? :o

 

[Shana]

There are rules for certain discussions and as this thread may turn into one on UR or ET, although this is not my intention, then the rules may apply here. Thanks and God bless.

 

[JM]

There are rules for certain discussions and as this thread may turn into one on UR or ET, although this is not my intention, then the rules may apply here. Thanks and God bless.

I see....

Rom 9:21-22 Hath not the potter power ouer the clay, of the same lumpe, to make one vessell vnto honour, and another vnto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, & to make his power knowen, indured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make knowen the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which hee had afore prepared vnto glorie? KJV 1611 (just for fun)

 

[Shana]

:-D I like it, Jason.

Has anyone every heard of the clay arguing with its Potter or demanding what the Potter is doing, as Paul asks. Even if the Potter grants the clay some liberty, isn't the clay ultimately in the hands of the Potter? Is this wrong? Does God have the right to infringe on our "free wills"?

God's blessings.

 

[Judy]

Thank you for sharing Bill. You may want to check with the mods about using quotes from other sources, but I agree that God has all rights over His own creatures and to force His will on His creatures. God bless.

Are we not allowed to quote anymore? :o

No, Jason you can quote others. Its just the topic on UR that you can't quote others. In that topic we wanted them to prove there case using just the bible.

There are rules for certain discussions and as this thread may turn into one on UR or ET, although this is not my intention, then the rules may apply here.

You have a knack for turning every topic into UR or ET. :roll:

 

[Shana]

Really, Judy? Can you show me where I have turned every topic into one on UR or ET? Most of the topics that I have posted on in Apologetics are already about UR and I started one topic on ET. If I am in error, please show me. Not to make a big deal out of anything. Thanks and God bless.

 

[Shana]

Thanks everyone for posting and for voting.


I posted the question because so many times, I have heard people suggest that God can do anything except interfere with man's free will. They seem to believe that God has no right to interfere with our free will. There are things, conditions, factors which are always influencing our wills so I do not see our will is being free at all. All through the scriptures, God sought to influence the wills of His people and of others. Any parent who cares for his or her child would do this, for the child's benefit. The parent has the right and the obligation to do this, as the child is his or her responsibility to raise. I believe that God has greater and more perfect love and concern than an earthly parent. And more than this, He is our Creator.. God bless.

 

[Heidi]

God certainly can interfere with free will any time he wants to, Shana! But he has chosen not to. Why do you think that is, Shana? I could force my children to stay home every night because I want to control them. I certainly have the power to do so. But I freely give that up because I want them to learn through the consequences of their behavior in order to understand why their behavior can be beneficial or hurtful. God knows we don't learn by listening to him! He has repeatedly told us through the OT how the world works and why the Ten Commandents are the best way to live. But, most ignore him. So He allows us to find out for ourselves what happens if we go against his laws. Unfortunately, that's the only way we human beings learn. That is love! What isn't love is forcing us to do what he wants without allowing us to desire him on our own. Would you rather have your husband love you because he's supposed to or because he loves you from his heart? He cannot love you from his heart if he is not free to reject you, Shana. If he doesn't have that freedom, then he loves you because he has no other options.

 

[Shana]

Thank you for responding, Heidi. Why do you believe that God chooses not to interfere with our "free will? ? Did God interfere with Pharaoh's free will when He hardened his heart as described in Exodus 4? When God said that that Esau would serve Jacob, was there anything that Esau or Jacob could have done to change this outcome? Was God's will being forced on these individuals?


When God set up the 10 commandments and allowed us to experience the consequences for disobeying them, did He know what would happen? Does He know what kind of effect this will have on us? Does He see beginning to end?

Would anyone desire God on his or her own? Does God have anything to do with the drawing of an individual to Himself so that they will desire Him?

Do you believe that God already knew, since He sees beginning to end, that one will not love from the heart if there is no freedom to reject?

When all are subjected to God, do you believe that there will be the freedom to reject God in heaven?

Thanks and God bless.

 

[cj]

.... and I started one topic on ET.

Which is the same as starting a topic on UR.

In love,
cj

 

[Heidi]

Thank you for responding, Heidi. Why do you believe that God chooses not to interfere with our "free will? ? Did God interfere with Pharaoh's free will when He hardened his heart as described in Exodus 4? When God said that that Esau would serve Jacob, was there anything that Esau or Jacob could have done to change this outcome? Was God's will being forced on these individuals?


When God set up the 10 commandments and allowed us to experience the consequences for disobeying them, did He know what would happen? Does He know what kind of effect this will have on us? Does He see beginning to end?

Would anyone desire God on his or her own? Does God have anything to do with the drawing of an individual to Himself so that they will desire Him?

Do you believe that God already knew, since He sees beginning to end, that one will not love from the heart if there is no freedom to reject?

When all are subjected to God, do you believe that there will be the freedom to reject God in heaven?

Thanks and God bless.

But you miss the piont, in fact you miss many points, Shana that Pharoah did not know God was hardening his heart because he didn't believe in God in the first place! He was proud of resisting God! And since God knows the heart of each man, he acts accordingly.

And again you miss the point that since atheists do not believe God or Satan is controlling them, they are without excuse! They have no desire for God and are proud of it.

AA demonstrates this principle quite well. The first step is to admit we are powerless over our addictions (sins). Even the statement "the devil made me do it" falls into this category. The 2nd step is what makes us accountable. What are we going to do about it? Now that we have admitted the truth, we are accountable for what we do about it.

That's why Jesus said; "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty for their sins. Now, however, they are without escuse." Phroah heard the truth from Moses and most people have heard the truth of Christ's words. But since none of us knows if we are called by God or not, our decision to accpet or reject God is completely our responsibility.

So the most important point of all is that those who want heaven will receieve it, but those who do not, will not. Trying to get atheists to want God is as difficult as trying to get you to believe Christ's words. Yet, do you love Christ enough to truly study his words about everything to make sure you have interpreted his words correctly? Or is it more pleasurable for you to ignore his words and believe your own opinions instead?You are making a deliberate choice when you do this, Shana. You know where to find Christ's words and how important it is for all Christians to scrutinize, and study them without changing them. He said he is our only teacher, so we can find the truth in his words. Everything we need to know about God's will is in his words. So you now have the choice to know and beleiev Christ or to deliberately ignore him and believe your own opinions. So which choice are you going to make?

 

[Shana]

Please, Heidi, lets not get into personal comments or personal attacks. If you disagree, just state that you disagree. We are told in Exodus that it was God's intention to harden the heart of Pharaoh for a purpose. Pharaoh exalted himself, but God also hardened his heart for His purposes. The mighty works of God were manifested as a result. I believe that if God sees beginning to end, then He already knew what kind of man Pharaoh was. He knows all hearts and there is a scripture which says that He fashions all hearts.

"Then Moses took his wife and his sons and set them on a donkey, and he returned to the land of Egypt. And Moses took the rod of God in his hand. And the Lord said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. but I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go." Exodus 4


"So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "Even for this same purpose, I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be declared in all the earth." Romans 9

God creates individuals for a purpose according to His purpose.There are many examples in the scriptures which tell of God's sovereignty in the affairs of men.


""I have declared the former things from the beginning; They went forth from My mouth, and I caused them to hear it. Suddenly I did them, and they came to pass. And because I knew that you were obstinate, and your neck was an iron sinew, and your brow bronze, even from the beginning I have declared it to you, before it came to pass, I proclaimed it to you, let you should say, my idol has done them, and my carved image and my molded image have commanded them." (Isaiah 48:3)

"Remember the former things of old, for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times, things not yet done" (Isaiah 48:10)


God planned before the twins were born, the role of each and so His will was to be done according to His purpose for them. Romans 9 gives a good description of this.


You don't have to agree, but please cease with the attacks. Now, you take care and God bless.

 

[bbas 64]

God certainly can interfere with free will any time he wants to, Shana! But he has chosen not to.

Good Day, Heidi

Where do you get the idea " he chose not to" book and passage please? What happened to Johna's free will choice not to go to Niniva [sp]. Why did God not hounor that choice of Johna?

Why do you think that is, Shana? I could force my children to stay home every night because I want to control them. I certainly have the power to do so. But I freely give that up because I want them to learn through the consequences of their behavior in order to understand why their behavior can be beneficial or hurtful.

You could not force your child to stay home every night, there are things that your child could do that are beyond your control or knowledge. Like sneanking out the window unless you have the abilties of God all knowing and complete sovergity. You have presented a fallacy in contenting that you could.

God knows we don't learn by listening to him! He has repeatedly told us through the OT how the world works and why the Ten Commandents are the best way to live. But, most ignore him. So He allows us to find out for ourselves what happens if we go against his laws. Unfortunately, that's the only way we human beings learn. That is love! What isn't love is forcing us to do what he wants without allowing us to desire him on our own. Would you rather have your husband love you because he's supposed to or because he loves you from his heart? He cannot love you from his heart if he is not free to reject you, Shana. If he doesn't have that freedom, then he loves you because he has no other options.

Wow, what a view of love in the most subjective way possible.

there are none that seek God..
those who are of of God understand his word..
we are enemies of God...
we have a heart of stone ....
the ones given by the Father are taught by the Father...
he firsted loved us...
Man lack the abilty to come...
Men are wicked...


God seeks us, those who are not of God do not understand, he put in us a new heart of flesh, the father draws them to the Son.

God is Love in the objective sence of the word your defining it in your subjuctive manner does in justice to the word IMHO!!

By the will of the Father not the will of man.

This idea that man can chose to hate the sin he loves and love a God he hates of his own chosing is just silly.

For his glory alone!!

Bill

 

[cj]

This idea that man can chose to hate the sin he loves and love a God he hates of his own chosing is just silly.

And in this one sentence this poster invalidates the man called Jesus.


Ooohhh boy.


In love,
cj

 

[cj]

God creates individuals for a purpose according to His purpose.There are many examples in the scriptures which tell of God's sovereignty in the affairs of men.

Oohhh boy.... so I guess God creates fallen men huh.


Does Shana ever consider the silliness of her broad statements.


In love,
cj

 

[bbas 64]

This idea that man can chose to hate the sin he loves and love a God he hates of his own chosing is just silly.

And in this one sentence this poster invalidates the man called Jesus.


Ooohhh boy.


In love,
cj

Good day, CJ

Nice assertion, care to show some vaild logical process by which you have drawn this baseless conclusion?

Peace to u,

Bill