God's foreknowledge/ omniscience

[thehayesman]

Can someone post for me what they believe is the concept of God's foreknowledge or omniscience? I really have trouble with understanding this.

(just in case) Are these the same or different to you?
:smt117 [this was just too funny]

 

[hybrid]

hi thehayesman,

Can someone post for me what they believe is the concept of God's foreknowledge or omniscience? I really have trouble with understanding this.

(just in case) Are these the same or different to you?
:smt117 [this was just too funny]

omniscience is the brother of omnipresence and the cousin of omnipotence.

it means that the future is so important, god does not want to leave it to chance.

the final outcome will be his will according to plan. whether we like it or not.


godspeed


.

 

[Georges]

Foreknowledge........

My post here is a kind of what if post.......

In Issac Asimov's "Foundation" series, the books introduce a science that is able to predict the future....human governments, etc...

Premise of the Series:

The premise of the series is that mathematician Hari Seldon has spent his life developing a branch of mathematics known as psychohistory, a concept devised by Asimov and his editor John W. Campbell. It uses the law of mass action to predict the future on a large scale, such as of planets or empires. Using these techniques, Seldon foresees the fall of the Galactic Empire, which encompasses the entire Milky Way.

What is interesting in the series...is that the main character forms a group of people who by creating a sequence of situations' and predicting peoples reactions to those stimuli, they are able to predict the future by the actions they had initiatiated....sort of like a grand chess game....

Is it possible that God manipulates man to his purpose thereby fulfilling predicted history......I mean, it is obvious in the OT that God uses armies to serve his purpose etc.

My brain hurts on that one.....

 

[thehayesman]

Please help

the final outcome will be his will according to plan. whether we like it or not.

I like this response, that's how it fits into God's greatness.

Is it possible that God manipulates man to his purpose thereby fulfilling predicted history......I mean, it is obvious in the OT that God uses armies to serve his purpose etc.

I would agree that God actively works and uses his hand in history to bring everything he planned to fullfillment. This is how He is dealing with evil.

However, I would like to know about this idea that God knows the future. I know most people say "yes" to it, including all my profs, but I just don't know. I was wondering where people stand AND how you define it because it is such a complex idea.

 

[hybrid]

guys,

is it as complex as throwing a handful of marbles to the floor and by sheer laws of physics, by calculating each marbles projectiles path as they bump and bounce, will be able to predict the exact position where all the marbles will rest when they were finally overcame by inertia? if asinov and hari seldon can do it by psychohistory, can god not?

my head hurts too, is this thread gonna drag on?

but as to manipulate people with freewill and all by simulation to bringforth the desired outcome, i'm not sure if psychohistory can be of use. divine providence might be call upon to do the job.

you can approach the problem by two ways...the orthodox way by believing that god is outside time and therefore can see the past, present and future in one glance. or by open theism, which confess that god does not know the future because there is not yet future. there is nothing to know. but in the present, god knows everything there is to know and therefore can make decision and actions to get the desired future.

 

[JM]

My brain hurts on that one.....

John Calvin warned about digging too deeply into God's divine plan! lol

 

[Geo]

Time really is a dimension, and God can see it just as we can watch
a two dimensional map with geographical beginnings and endings.

Why can some people know the future without being told so by God?
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/LatentPowerofSoul.pdf

It's one of THE best books ever written on the subject, it single
handedly stopped my interest in the DETAILS of Illuminists like Asimov
or any of his satanist associates. It's enough to understand
WHO teaches all these people.

 

[Georges]

Time really is a dimension, and God can see it just as we can watch
a two dimensional map with geographical beginnings and endings.

Why can some people know the future without being told so by God?
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/LatentPowerofSoul.pdf

It's one of THE best books ever written on the subject, it single
handedly stopped my interest in the DETAILS of Illuminists like Asimov
or any of his satanist associates. It's enough to understand
WHO teaches all these people.

I wasn't infering anything other than saying that God is powerful enough to predict the future by causing it to happen as he pleases....I don't read Asimov other than the first book in the series years ago...The topic triggered the memory I had of it.

 

[hybrid]

Time really is a dimension, and God can see it just as we can watch a two dimensional map with geographical beginnings and endings.

hi geo,

i believe god if he has to be almighty can stand outside the human history and see it from beginning to end. but for reason of sanity, i never dared to understand the ramification of this belief. i leave that to the deep thinking eggheads of the church.

btw. your link was nice, a fair warning to all christians.

wasn't infering anything other than saying that God is powerful enough to predict the future by causing it to happen as he pleases....I don't read Asimov other than the first book in the series years ago...The topic triggered the memory I had of it.

so i tend to believe like georges that god simply causes to happen what kind of future he wanted it to be. this inspite that the devil tried to prevent god's plan and man's freewill constantly astray and at odds with gods will.
.

 

[Geo]

Ok ok, still the idea of "God manipulates man to his purpose" is not quite it.
To draw by affectionate love is manipulation? Am I manipulating my kids in
the same way by teaching them the essentials of all and eveything, in love?
I would count politics, economics and inventing and directing of world religions
as direct manipulation. What all hints at the master chess player Lucifer that
calculates a minimum of XX steps ahead, where most people hardly can see
the next move on the board.

I think one point in the referenced book is that the natural man is under satan's
influence because the soul is a domain he conquered right at the beginning.
So the majority of natural humanity is predictable and always accessible for
deceptive manipulation. Chess is basically "Satan's joke" to explain and teach
us how manipulation works. If you know anything about chess, and you discover
Satan's main strategy, you most definately know where the game is heading.

Now let's remove our eyes from the chess board and understand that players
are created beings and the creator knows the heart and intentions of both,
therefore their nature and strategy. He sends Jesus and then the Holy Spirit
to directly participate within the ones that separate unto him. So he guides
the ones that belong to him, and knows the "end-moves" of the opponent
already, because of the outside time view, and because natural things drift
in their natural directions, once they start moving. Free will in natural,
unregenerated beings is very predictable once we know their nature.
(I also "remember for a moment" the time I was playing chess, and had days
I was good at analyzing behavior what made my opponent desparate to grasp
the reason why he lost each and every game that day).

Free will in Christians is different, and if exercised the world is astonished,
because they couldn't see it coming, they can read the soul but not the spirit.

God the father gently directs the ones he draws, their destiny are in His firm hand,
the others are a plain book for everyone and Satan and his companies deal with
their soul as a commodity, what accurately describes possession as result of
manipulation. But do read the book, it's great, and with God's grace you might
be able to see the world with different eyes.

 

[hybrid]

geo,

indeed, manipulate is a strong word. but the bible did cite some examples of god exrcisin his divine prerogative as in the case of isaiah, whom he chose to be his prophet even from the womb of his mother, or david whom god chose to be king or paul as apostle to the gentiles. in all these cases, this was a unilateral act of god. and the three has no choice as to what they wanted to be. becasue god had determined already who they should be even before they were born. but these are more of an exception of course, as a general rule god made people to choose between life and death, blessings or curses, obedience or disobedience, accepting, following, abiding in christ or rejecting him.

in not so many words, god therefore is in control, and trusting him is sufficient to feel a sense of well being fully confident that your eternal future is secured in hiim.

 

[Geo]

hybrid, of course, He is the creator. What implies actively creating
"unilateral acts of god". Take yourself as an example,
did you choose to get born? Neither did I. But our walk is one of making
choices about everything. Everyday we have to make 100's of decisions.

I found the longer we walk with Jesus, the less we care about the
form a thing or matter seems to have, or pretends to have. Everything
can instantly traced back to its origin and the source that drives it.

That's the reason why I was so multi-faceted and cultured as a unbeliever
and could accurately see the difference between all shades of grey,
and now enjoy the 'black and white' view as a believer. I realized there are
truly only two sources of all things. We allways have to make a choice: It's
either God's way or Satan's way. Everything else is just a (pretty good) illusion,
or how some call it: culture and tradition. But for the ones that know better,
it's always the tree of knowledge or the tree of life.

 

[thehayesman]

Ok ok, still the idea of "God manipulates man to his purpose" is not quite it.
To draw by affectionate love is manipulation? Am I manipulating my kids in
the same way by teaching them the essentials of all and eveything, in love?


Now let's remove our eyes from the chess board and understand that players
are created beings and the creator knows the heart and intentions of both,
therefore their nature and strategy. He sends Jesus and then the Holy Spirit
to directly participate within the ones that separate unto him. So he guides
the ones that belong to him, and knows the "end-moves" of the opponent
already, because of the outside time view, and because natural things drift
in their natural directions, once they start moving. Free will in natural,
unregenerated beings is very predictable once we know their nature.

I like what you said here. I don't really know much about the arguments for different views of how God sees time. I think, though, that the future hasn't really played out yet, but like in a chess game, the "end game" is here. God knows how the enemy works and has already pronounced how he will be defeated. I don't think God sees each detail of everything before it happens, though. He just has an all-seeing view of the innate nature of life and humanity. With this knowledge, He has set in motion what the "telos" of creation will be. A "new heaven and earth" in Christ Jesus. Does that make any sense??

 

[Geo]

Well hayesman, it's indeed complex, if we think about all the prophets
in the old and new testament talking about events that will come to pass.

How does God know them? He isn't in the same time we are (a thousand
years like a day) and most likely outside of time completely (eternal).
I'm sure He has seen already what is still future for us.

It will be a delight to sit around Jesus and wait to hear how He explains it to us.
A "new heaven and earth" in Christ Jesus is of course a sure promise,
as His plan cannot be overruled or undone.

 

[GundamZero]

To understand the the fore knowledge of God, it might be a good idea to examine the way the Revelation was written. John kept saying " I saw" as if he were watching it happen. It's true. Since God is in Eternity, the concept of time Does not apply to Him, sonce he can exist outside of it. His FORE knowledge is really PRESENT omniscience, as C.S. Lewis once conjuectured, present is the point at which time a eternity meet. It is an interesting idea, because when Christ entered he limited is omipotance, omnipresence, and omniscience. When you think of it from an eternal vantage, it makes sense that God revealed himself to Moses as "I AM", because to say he was or will be just doesn't make any sense.

 

[Geo]

Yes the "I AM" statement already answers the question completely,
spoken in eternity, not under the influence of time.