God's plan is so perfect, so complex, shortsighted Arminians and Calvinists just can't fathom it.

[Fastfredy0]

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

This statement does not address whether or not you are "putting the cart before the horse". In other words it does not address which comes first logically: "saving faith" or "regeneration". The verse you quote does not give a time sequence. You assume the one must first believe salvificly and then be sealed. One could be given faith and sealed concurrently.

• John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh conveys no benefit [it is of no account]. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life [providing eternal life]… 65 And He was saying, “This is the reason why I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him [that is, unless he is enabled to do so] by the Father.”
• Acts 3:16 And on the basis of faith in His name, it is the name of Jesus which has strengthened this man whom you see and know; and the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect health and complete wholeness in your presence.
• Romans 12:3b as God has apportioned to each a degree of faith ... God assigns faith portions
• 1 Corinthians 12:3b And no one can [really] say, Jesus is [my] Lord, except by and under the power and influence of the Holy Spirit.
• yada, yada

If FAITH be self-caused then you are saved by your WORKS which contradicts scripture.

John 1:12-13 says faith is caused by God and then to stress the point is goes on to say FAITH does NOT come by the will of man.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Yes, no problem. I went from unbelief to belief.
The sheep are not born believing. They might even go most of their lives in unbelief. Paul is a good example:

Gal 1:14 And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me

Paul who was separated by God from his mother's womb, was in unbelief and even persecuted the Church. But when it pleased God to reveal His Son to him (sometime in adulthood) he was born again. Then Paul says he didn't even bother to go visit Peter in Jerusalem for 3 years.

God chooses those He wants to save beforehand. Then in time the Holy Spirit works in each one of them at God's timing to bring them to faith.

2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

John 10:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

Every commentator I have read agree that Jesus is talking about us - people way in the future not even born.
He calls them sheep, not goats who will turn into sheep when they believe. He says they will hear. They can't help but hear because "My sheep hear My voice."

Nothing above invalidates free will. The Arminian/Calvin construct causes the confusion.

God does predestine the Elect, but they excercised their free will choice to love God "when they awoke" in God's Omniscience. That happened before the foundation of the world, and these who loved God knowing precisely who He is, were then predestined to be saved when the "fallen versions" of them came into existence:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom. 8:28-29 NKJ)

There is another category of people, the "undetermined". These were "neutral" when they "awoke". They didn't respond to God's love, they were indifferent but neither were they wicked. God doesn't predestine these, they have full opportunity to choose God in this fallen realm as God gracefully empowers them to use their free will and choose. Their existence is indicated by names being written in, or blotted out of the book of life after the Fall.

Another category of people, are the Wicked Children of the Devil. When they "awoke" in God's Omniscience, they rebelled against God, despised Holiness and light preferring selfish pursuits. God calls these to repentance but they are unable to respond because they are children of the Devil. God didn't reprobate them, they do that to themselves. Its who they are.

These three categories of people arise because God's gift of Free Will is genuine. Because it is genuine and not "slanted" to go either way, some choose right and some choose wrong.

Our fallen version in Adam is NOT what election is based upon, its based upon who we were in God's Omniscience before He created. As that "uncreated version" never comes into existence, those selected to be saved in this life are saved "according to God's good purpose and will" and not because of anything they do in this life. God didn't override their free will, He made their free will choice in His omniscience actual in this fallen realm.


As for the "neutral" they are brought to the light of Christ either in this life, or the afterlife and they choose which way they will go.

The wicked will never choose righteousness and are lost forever, but that is their own fault. Its who they are. They are children of the Devil.

That is why the texts Calvinists cite against free will choice, and those Arminians cite against predestination both fail to prove their point. Their construct is "shortsighted", they see only half of the Elephant.

When Christ put repentance before belief and regeneration, He was not wrong:

"Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, 'The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel. Mark 1:14-15

When Peter puts repentance before receiving the Holy Spirit and being regenerated, he is not wrong:

"Peter replied, 'Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.' Acts 2:38

 

[Whatever]

I don't know where the bible defines "freedom" as the ability to not sin.

What else would it be? We are slaves of sin.
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others

1 John 5:18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

The "does not sin" is in the tense of "does not keep on practicing sin,"

1 John 3:10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

We are freed from the lusts of the flesh and mind. Here while we are still in these flesh bodies we still give in to these animal instincts. Self control is a fruit of the Spirit but it has to be exercised like your biceps.

 

[Whatever]

There is another category of people, the "undetermined". These were "neutral"

This sounds like a man made theology.

Our fallen version in Adam is NOT what election is based upon,

That is exactly what it is based upon. Out of the mass of fallen -sinful men, God chooses those He wants to save.

 

[Alfred Persson]

This sounds like a man made theology.

That is exactly what it is based upon. Out of the mass of fallen -sinful men, God chooses those He wants to save.

Its scriptural. How else do you explain the books open on Judgment Day, where names can be written into or blotted out of the Book of life.

That people are saved on Judgment Day is explicitly stated by the prophet Daniel (Dan. 12:2) Jesus Christ (John 5:28-29) and His apostle Peter (Acts 24:15).

If God predestined everyone saved then the names couldn't change from the foundation of the world.

"He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. (Rev. 3:5 NKJ)

Logically, as the Elect's names cannot be blotted out, these names that can be blotted do not belong to the Elect. Therefore, another class of people, who aren't elect, are also among the saved.

Paul says the "elect" obtained salvation, but the rest (=non elect) were blinded but later saved. Therefore, The Elect+The saved Blinded+The saved Gentiles=The Fullness, OR "All Israel":

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 Just as it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day."
9 And David says: "Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, and bow down their back always."
11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.
12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness! (Rom. 11:7-12 NKJ)

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. (Rom. 11:26-32 NKJ)

The Elect+The saved Blinded+The Gentiles= The Fullness, "All Israel...saved".

Everyone believed the above in the days of Christ. It is absurd Exegetes ignore this Jewish 1st century context:

[I.15 A] Said R. Kruspedai said R. Yohanan, “Three books are opened [by God] on the New Year: one for the thoroughly wicked, one for the thoroughly righteous, and one for middling [people].
“The thoroughly righteous immediately are inscribed and sealed for [continued] life.
[C] “The thoroughly wicked immediately are inscribed and sealed for death.
[D] “Middling [people] are left hanging from New Year until the Day of Atonement.
[E] “If they [are found to have] merit, they are inscribed for life.
[F] “If they [are found] not [to have] merit, they are inscribed for death.”
[G] Said R. Abin, “What is the Scriptural [foundation for this]? [Ps. 69:28 states]: ‘Let them be blotted out of the book of the living. Let them not be inscribed among the righteous.’ ‘Let them be blotted out of the book’-this refers to the book of the thoroughly wicked. ‘[… of the] living’-this refers to the book of the righteous. ‘Let them not be inscribed among the righteous’-this refers to the book of middling [people].”-Neusner, J. (2011). The Babylonian Talmud: A Translation and Commentary (Vol. 6b, p. 83). Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers.

Rabbi Abin relies on unstated implications: "Let them be blotted out" implies the Thoroughly Wicked. Names that are added to "the Righteous" implies "The Middling (undetermined) people who are saved. Names in the Book of life since the foundation of the world the "Thoroughly Righteous

Christ called some Rabbinic teaching “treasure” (Mt. 13:52), its not all crap:

Then He said to them, “Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old.” (Matt. 13:52 NKJ)

 

[Dave...]

Hey Dave... I don't think so:

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

M

All you did was repeat the same thing again. What got you to that point that you desired to respond positively to the Gospel message, if this is your condition (described in the passage below) apart from God moving first?

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Dave

 

[miamited]

HI Dave...

I'm not sure what you're getting at. You said that I was putting the cart before the horse. Now maybe I didn't understand your reference, but I thought that you were referring to when one receives the Holy Spirit, which is what we were discussing. According to the Scripture posted Paul wrote that when we believe we receive the Holy Spirit.

However, I believe that one can be drawn by the Spirit even when he is not actually living in said person. Which is what the Scriptures tell us. That God draws us to Him and He does that through the urging of the Holy Spirit, is how I understand it.

 

[Dave...]

It is a true statement. It's up to Jesus as to what He decides to say.

The crux of the matter is "what is the cause of the sheep believing and the goats to not believe". The result of the cause is that the sheep believe and the goats do not believe.

Sorry, I read your reply too fast and answered as if you were disagreeing with me. At least not here. My bad.

Dave

 

[Dave...]

HI Dave...

I'm not sure what you're getting at. You said that I was putting the cart before the horse. Now maybe I didn't understand your reference, but I thought that you were referring to when one receives the Holy Spirit, which is what we were discussing. According to the Scripture posted Paul wrote that when we believe we receive the Holy Spirit.

However, I believe that one can be drawn by the Spirit even when he is not actually living in said person. Which is what the Scriptures tell us. That God draws us to Him and He does that through the urging of the Holy Spirit, is how I understand it.

I believe that fast Freddy responded very well to your post with scripture at the top of this page.

But can the person described in 1 Corinthians 2:14 respond positively to that drawing of the Holy Spirit?

Dave

 

[Alfred Persson]

I believe that fast Freddy responded very well to your post with scripture at the top of this page.

But can the person described in 1 Corinthians 2:14 respond positively to that drawing of the Holy Spirit?

Dave

Pardon my butting in:

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. (Jn. 6:44 NKJ)

If one cannot be drawn to Christ unless they have been regenerated by Christ, the text makes no sense. Then it says

No one can come to Me unless the Fathr who sent Me already had him come to me...

How can somone apart from Christ be regenerated by Him?

 

[Dave...]

Pardon my butting in:

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. (Jn. 6:44 NKJ)

If one cannot be drawn to Christ unless they have been regenerated by Christ, the text makes no sense. Then it says

No one can come to Me unless the Fathr who sent Me already had him come to me...

How can somone apart from Christ be regenerated by Him?

No problem, Alfred

That's what these discussions are for.

One could ask, how can Jesus be both the Author and Finisher of our faith (Heb 12:2)?

If He is the Author, then this is Him taking a (1 Corinthians 2:14) person and doing a spiritual work in that person before that person comes to faith that is beyond what that person is capable of doing otherwise. Would you agree?

Dave

 

[Whatever]

Logically, as the Elect's names cannot be blotted out, these names that can be blotted do not belong to the Elect. Therefore, another class of people, who aren't elect, are also among the saved.

Not necessarily. They are counted among professing Christians.
Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

That book could simply be a book with the names of every person who professed faith and was written down in a Church membership roll.

Probably lots of pastors, elders, deacons and others will hear "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!" (Matthew 7:23)

Paul says the "elect" obtained salvation, but the rest (=non elect) were blinded but later saved.

Let's see what it says:
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Israel as a nation as a whole has not obtained salvation, but the individual elect Jews did obtain it. That blinding was for a period of time until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in then Israel will be saved. (Rom 11:25-26)
Apparently Israel today is still in unbelief, so those blinded
Jews in Paul's day were not later saved - they are all dead.

The Elect+The saved Blinded+The Gentiles= The Fullness, "All Israel...saved".

There are no "saved blinded." The blinding is still going on today. Only elect Jews are accepting Jesus.
Elect Jews saved + elect Gentiles = All Israel saved.

 

[Alfred Persson]

No problem, Alfred

That's what these discussions are for.

One could ask, how can Jesus be both the Author and Finisher of our faith (Heb 12:2)?

If He is the Author, then this is Him taking a (1 Corinthians 2:14) person and doing a spiritual work in that person before that person comes to faith that is beyond what that person is capable of doing otherwise. Would you agree?

Dave

In answer, I question the logic of your premise. Just as I asked you how could someone "come" who had already "come"
No one can come to Me unless the Fathr who sent Me already had him come to me...


How can the text read:

Looking unto Jesus the AUTHOR and AUTHOR of our faith.

You argue initiating our faith (as an author) is the same as perfecting our faith (as a finisher), but these are two separate things, not the same.

Christ can initiate the faith simply by making us notice something needs to be done, finishing it however implies after we have begun a work He steps in and completes it. Perhaps as a Father would aid his child getting over a hurdle.

So this does not prevent our initiative, it only implies our inititative isn't enough to complete the task, to finish it.

 

[Whatever]

But can the person described in 1 Corinthians 2:14 respond positively to that drawing of the Holy Spirit?

Arminians believe they can. They call it Prevenient grace.

Prevenient grace refers to the grace of God in a person's life that precedes conversion (or salvation).

In Arminianism and Wesleyanism, it is a grace that offsets the noetic effects of the Fall, restores man's free will, and thus enables every person to choose to come to Christ or not. There are two forms of this view:

Universal prevenient grace — This grace is extended to every person.

Individualistic prevenient grace — This grace is only extended to those who come under the intelligent hearing of the gospel, and not to every person.

Of course they believe that this grace can be rejected.

The Reformed call it Irresistible Grace (or efficacious grace). It does what it was intended to do; save the person, not make him saveable. Of course it is only given to the elect.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Not necessarily. They are counted among professing Christians.
Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

That book could simply be a book with the names of every person who professed faith and was written down in a Church membership roll.

Probably lots of pastors, elders, deacons and others will hear "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!" (Matthew 7:23)

Let's see what it says:
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Israel as a nation as a whole has not obtained salvation, but the individual elect Jews did obtain it. That blinding was for a period of time until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in then Israel will be saved. (Rom 11:25-26)
Apparently Israel today is still in unbelief, so those blinded
Jews in Paul's day were not later saved - they are all dead.

There are no "saved blinded." The blinding is still going on today. Only elect Jews are accepting Jesus.
Elect Jews saved + elect Gentiles = All Israel saved.

That's something else. This isn't a count, its a list of saved people. Names are in it from the foundation of the world, the names of the Elect. Therefore, adding names later indicates the existence of people who weren't "selected at the foundation of the world, but later hence their names are written in.

The reverse also indicates this: AS some names are blotted out, but Elect names cannot be blotted out, these names belong to people who weren't "of the Elect".

Mt 7:21 doesn't address this question at all. That's talking about something else.

Paul did not say "Israel as a whole", you are changing the verse to fit your interpretation:

What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. (Rom. 11:7 NKJ)

Its elementary Israel is not "the elect", but neither are they reprobate. They obtain what the Elect obtained, later.

And your last statement misunderstands the blinding, its only temporary until they are saved, Once saved "they see".

 

[Whatever]

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. (Jn. 6:44 NKJ)

If one cannot be drawn to Christ unless they have been regenerated by Christ, the text makes no sense.

That "drawing" is not a wooing. The word "draw" can mean to drag by force. It is used in:
John 21:6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.

Strongs says: to drag (literally or figuratively): - draw.

 

[Whatever]

Names are in it from the foundation of the world

I don't think so.
Rev 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world . . .

Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The only verse with blot out is:
Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

I guess you can assume that those who overcome will not have their names blotted out means that there are born again Christians who don't overcome and therefore have their names blotted out.
But John seems to write against that:
1 John 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Those born again overcome. Those professors not born again do not.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Re: I said: I don't know where the bible defines "freedom" as the ability to not sin.

What else would it be? We are slaves of sin.
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others

1 John 5:18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

The "does not sin" is in the tense of "does not keep on practicing sin,"

1 John 3:10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

We are freed from the lusts of the flesh and mind. Here while we are still in these flesh bodies we still give in to these animal instincts. Self control is a fruit of the Spirit but it has to be exercised like your biceps.

I'm not sure the point you are trying to make. I defined "freedom from sin" as the ability in this life to stop sinning. Are you saying that is not true?

 

[Alfred Persson]

I don't think so.
Rev 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world . . .

Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The only verse with blot out is:
Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

I guess you can assume that those who overcome will not have their names blotted out means that there are born again Christians who don't overcome and therefore have their names blotted out.
But John seems to write against that:
1 John 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Those born again overcome. Those professors not born again do not.

Who said everyone's name is in the book of life? Not me. Beast worshippers names were never in it precisely as the two scriptures you cite, say.

Only those predestined for salvation from the foundation of the world, are in it "from the foundation of the world".

Their names can't be blotted out or they weren't predestined, were they?

Therefore, that some names can be written in, or blotted out from the book of life proves people "other than the Elect" are being saved, or lost.

Once a person is born again, he can't unborn. Once they are given eternal life, they have eternal life, not temporary life. Once saved always saved is clear Bible teaching. Don't confuse me with anyone who denies "the eternal security of the believer."

 

[Alfred Persson]

That "drawing" is not a wooing. The word "draw" can mean to drag by force. It is used in:
John 21:6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.

Strongs says: to drag (literally or figuratively): - draw.

Why aren't you telling that to Dave? Re post #51, I know its not the same thing.