Good News for True Christian Believers!

[bibleberean]

Fifty Reasons

Why A Saved Person Can NEVER Be Lost

by Timothy S. Morton


1. ETERNAL LIFE IS ETERNAL! John 3:15, 10:28, Romans 6:23, 1 John 2:25, 5:11, 5:13, etc.; By definition eternal means never ending. Once a believer has eternal life it can never be taken away. If it could be it would not be eternal!

2. EVERLASTING LIFE IS EVERLASTING! Daniel 12:2; John 3:16, 3:36, 5:24, 6:40, 6:47; Romans 6:22; etc.; Likewise, everlasting life can never end. It is everlasting regardless of the believer’s behavior.

3. IT IS GOD’S WILL! John 6:39; It is God’s will that Christ lose none of those who come to Him.

4. HEAVEN IS RESERVED FOR HIM! 1 Peter 1:4; An inheritance in heaven is reserved for the believer.

5. SALVATION (INHERITANCE) IS INCORRUPTIBLE! 1 Peter 1:4; No one can corrupt something God has made incorruptible.

6. SALVATION (INHERITANCE) CANNOT BE DEFILED! 1 Peter 1:4; No one can defile something which God says cannot be defiled.

7. HE IS SEALED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT! Ephesians 1:13; No power in Heaven or earth can break God’s seal.

8. HE IS SEALED UNTO THE DAY OF REDEMPTION! Ephesians 4:30; The believer is sealed until the day God redeems his body.

9. HOLY SPIRIT WILL ABIDE FOREVER! John 14:16-17; The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is permanent.

10. HE IS PRESERVED FOREVER! Psalm 37:28; God preserves the saint forever.

11. HE IS BORN OF GOD! John 1:12-13 The believer actually becomes God’s child and cannot be “unborn.â€Â

12. HE IS A NEW CREATURE! 2 Corinthians 5:17; God has made the believer a new creature and no one can “uncreate†him.

13. HE IS CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS! Ephesians 2:10; The saint was created in his Saviour.

14. HE IS PRESERVED UNTO THE HEAVENLY KINGDOM! 2 Timothy 4:18; The believer is preserved like Paul since God is no respecter of persons.

15. HE IS KEPT BY THE POWER OF GOD! 1 Peter 1:5; Since God is keeping him, the believer cannot fall from salvation.

16. CHRIST HAS PRAYED FOR HIM! John 17:11; Jesus prayed that God would keep all who He had given Him.

17. WORKS CANNOT AFFECT HIS SALVATION! Romans 11:6; Salvation is not gained by works, so it cannot be lost by works.

18. HIS FAITH IS COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS! Romans 4:5; It is faith which brings salvation to a believer.

19. NOTHING CAN SEPARATE HIM FROM THE LOVE OF CHRIST! Romans 8:38-39; Nothing material, immaterial, past, present, or future can separate a believer from Christ’s love.

20. SALVATION IS OF THE LORD! Jonah 2:9; Salvation is all God’s work. He bought it and provided it.

21. GOD IS ABLE TO KEEP HIM! 2 Timothy 1:12; The believer’s salvation rests on God’s omnipotent ability to keep him.

22. HE IS PROMISED NOT TO COME INTO CONDEMNATION! John 5:24; This promise would be broken if even one believer fell into eternal condemnation.

23. HE IS PROMISED TO NEVER PERISH! John 10:27-28; Every saint has an unconditional promise to never perish.

24. HE WILL NEVER BE CAST OUT! John 6:37; Under no condition will any believer be cast out from Christ or Heaven.

25. ALL THINGS WORK TOGETHER FOR GOOD TO HIM! Romans 8:28; It would not be good for one to lose his salvation.

26. HE IS IN CHRIST’S HAND! John 10:28; The believer is in his Saviours hand.

27. HE IS IN THE FATHER’S HAND! John 10:29-30; The saint is in his heavenly Father’s hand.

28. HE IS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE, A SHEEP! John 10:27-28; A sheep represents a saved person and cannot change from being one.

29. GOD’S MERCY NEVER ENDS! Titus 3:5; The believer is saved by God’s mercy and it endures forever (Psalm 136).

30. GOD CANNOT LIE! Titus 1:2; Once God has saved a believer, he cannot go back on His word.

31. HIS SINS ARE GONE FOREVER! Psalm 103:12; Micah 7:19; Isaiah 38:17, 44:22; Hebrews 10:17; The saints sins are gone.

32. HE SHALL BE LIKE CHRIST! 1 John 3:2; It is a certainty that the believer will be like Christ.

33. GOD SEES HIM AS ALREADY GLORIFIED! Romans 8:30; The saint is as good as glorified in God’s sight.

34. HE IS BORN OF INCORRUPTIBLE SEED! 1 Peter 1:23; The Christian’s new birth was from incorruptible seed.

35. HE WILL APPEAR WITH CHRIST IN GLORY! Colossians 3:4; The saint is promised to appear with Christ when He returns.

36. HE IS HIDDEN IN CHRIST! Colossians 3:3; The believer is dead to the world and alive in Christ.

37. HE IS DEAD TO AND FREED FROM SIN! Romans 6:2-7; Sin can no longer affect the saint’s destiny. He is freed from it.

38. THE LORD IS NOW PRAYING FOR HIM! Hebrews 7:25; The Lord is presently interceding in the believer’s behalf.

39. GOD WILL FINISH WHAT HE STARTED! Phillipians 1:6; God began the work of salvation and will finish it.

40. HE HAS ETERNAL REDEMPTION! Hebrews 9:12; Every believer has been eternally redeemed from his sins.

41. HIS LIFE IS CHRIST’S LIFE! Colossians 3:4; The saints life is Christ’s very own life, so how could it be lost?

42. HE HAS AN EVERLASTING COVENANT WITH GOD! Hebrews 13:20; God made a covenant to give the saint
everlasting life.

43. HE IS KEPT FROM FALLING BY CHRIST! Jude 24; A Christian cannot fall from grace because Christ is keeping him.

44. SALVATION IS A FREE GIFT! Romans 6:23; A free gift is given with no conditions.

45. HE HAS IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS! Romans 4:6-7; The righteousness the saint has is Christ’s perfect righteousness.

46. HE IS A PART OF CHRIST! Ephesians 5:30; Every believer is a part of Christ’s body. “Bone of His bone....â€Â

47. CHRIST IS THE AUTHOR AND FINISHER OF HIS SALVATION! Hebrews 12:2; Christ began and will finish his salvation.

48. HE HAS BEEN PREDESTINATED TO BE CONFORMED TO CHRIST’S IMAGE! Romans 8:29; After salvation the believer is predestinated.

49. CHRIST’S BLOOD HAS MADE PEACE FOR HIM! Colossians 1:20; The saint has peace with God through the blood.

50. THE BIBLE WAS WRITTEN SO HE COULD BELIEVE AND KNOW! 1 John 5:13; The saint can know he HAS ETERNAL SALVATION!

 

[Vic C.]

bump

This might actually get more responses if moved to the Apologetics Forum. There are some there who don't believe in perseverance of the saints.

Lets see what happens. 8-)

 

[bibleberean]

bump

This might actually get more responses if moved to the Apologetics Forum. There are some there who don't believe in perseverance of the saints.

Lets see what happens. 8-)

Do you want me to copy this and start a new topic in the Apologetics Forum or would you like to move this there? Either way, I am all for it. :D

 

[Vic C.]

Done... with "shadow" copy intact.

 

[unred typo]

1. ETERNAL LIFE IS ETERNAL! John 3:15, 10:28, Romans 6:23, 1 John 2:25, 5:11, 5:13, etc.; By definition eternal means never ending. Once a believer has eternal life it can never be taken away. If it could be it would not be eternal!

As long as you are in Christ, you have life. If you remove yourself from following Christ, you no longer have life. If you continue in Christ from now until the judgment, you can say you have eternal life, I suppose. But then you would be boasting of tomorrow, which you don’t know if you are going to continue or not. God is pulling for you so as long as you don’t completely reject the Spirit’s leading in your life, you will be saved.

I’d love to stay and cast some light on this misleading/misused set of verses, but alas! I must leave for now. Looks like the same list I took up with AVBunyan though. He left so I guess it’s up to you, Vic and Mondar and beloved57 and bibleberean? I’ll be Bach. It should be classic. :wink:

and yes, of course, I'll be nice :-D Looks like peanuts though... :smt106

 

[bibleberean]

John 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I am very confident in my salvation. :D

Philippians 1:4 Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy,

Philippians 1:5 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

 

[Drew]

1. ETERNAL LIFE IS ETERNAL! John 3:15, 10:28, Romans 6:23, 1 John 2:25, 5:11, 5:13, etc.; By definition eternal means never ending. Once a believer has eternal life it can never be taken away. If it could be it would not be eternal!

Agreed.

Now let's see what Paul has to say about the point in time at which we are actually given eternal life in Romans 2:

But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

Eternal life is granted at a future day of judgement and it cannot be lost thereafter.

 

[Veritas]

John 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I am confident in my salvation as well. Nothing apart from myself will stand in the way of my salvation....

But if someone is not willing or becomes unwilling, and that is of his or her own accord. God will respect that and will let you turn away.

 

[bibleberean]

A person cannot be unborn. If a person is truly born again he or she will not leave their faith. If they do never had it to begin with.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

[unred typo]

On second look, these are very fluffy. More like rice cakes than peanuts. Get them in your mouth and they disintegrate. Look at how effortlessly Drew destroyed the first 2 with one verse and a well spoken thought, “Eternal life is granted at a future day of judgment and it cannot be lost thereafter.â€Â
The rest of the list looks about as substantial. Not very satisfying or challenging. Caps and an exclamation point do not mean the verses prove what the author has proclaimed. If you read the verses with an open mind and think about what they really say, they won‘t prove the statement connected to them. I’m rather tired of trying to point out the obvious though. When it comes right down to it, if you want to believe those verses mean that, there’s not much Drew or I or Veritas can say to convince you otherwise. My Dad used to say, “A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.â€Â

It’s Christmas season and I don’t have the time to spend playing word games. Maybe after the holidays or on a slow snowy day. You all have fun though. :-D

 

[unred typo]

quote by bibleberean :
A person cannot be unborn. If a person is truly born again he or she will not leave of their faith. They never had it to begin with.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

The question is, when is a person born again? Once a person is born alive, are you going to say they can never lose their life? That’s not the way my Bible reads. Look at Hebrews 6:

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7For the earth which drinks in the rain that comes oft upon it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receives blessing from God:
8But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
10For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labor of love, which you have showed toward his name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11And we desire that every one of you do show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12That you be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Pretty sobering text.

 

[bibleberean]

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.


I know I presently have eternal life. even though my body is dead because of sin. Above verse Romans 8:10

I know I have eternal life presently. The total fulfillment is yet to come when this mortal puts on immortality. (In the future) 1 Corinthians 15.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Once you are born again "nothing and no one can separate you from the love of Christ including yourself.

It is possible to believe that you are saved when you are not. You could hear the word and believe without becoming born again.

Eternal life is eternal and a true believer has it now. There is a future event but I am a son of God now and will be like Christ when He appears.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Note: "Now we are the sons of God"

The Hebrews who went back to Judaism after tasting the power of the Spirit and hearing the gospel and having a form of enlightenment but not been converted could not be saved because they would have rejected Christ and went back to the sacrifices and shamed the cross and the Lord's "finished" work there on.

Here is a excerpt that may help clear things up for you.

Note this is not a blanket endorsement for everything written here but it may help you understand.

http://www.sounddoctrine.com/hardscript.htm

Heb 6:4-6

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This one will take a bit of study. First up. When was Hebrews written, to whom was it written and what was it's purpose?

How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; Hebrews 2:3

The writer of Hebrews got his information from those who were contemporary with Jesus Christ. (confirmed unto us by them that heard him;) That will place it's message as valid during the time of Christ, and will make the message that which Christ and John the Baptist preached. The book was written to the "Hebrews". That makes the recipients of this "mail" Jewish (Hebrew). It's purpose was to help these Hebrews see the fulfillment of the Old Testament tabernacle, priesthood, and sacrificial system of worship in Jesus Christ."

Hebrews 10:26,27

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. .

If you sin willfully? When did you ever sin when it was not "willfully?" Then most likely there will be no one saved. All will be consigned to hell. But - did Jesus die in vain? Or, is there another answer to this conundrum? If we are going to find the correct answer, It will be one that takes the context of the entire book of Hebrews into account. As we learned before, Hebrews was an early book. It was written to (here we go again} HEBREWS. Hebrews was written to bring Jews, raised under the law of Moses, to an understanding of the superiority of Jesus Christ to that system. Read Hebrews. See how many times the word "better" shows up (in a King James Bible). No, instead I'll just tell you. Thirteen times. In those 13 times we discover That Jesus is better than the Angels (the Jews didn't know this). He offered a better hope, a better testament, a better covenant, better promises, better sacrifices, a better country, a better and enduring substance, and better things than Abel.

When he tells them that if they sin willfully, first he is not talking to you. He is writing to Hebrew people who know life under the law, and now have been shown why Jesus Came. If they WILLFULLY REJECT HIM (sin willfully) There is not going to be another sacrifice somewhere down the road. He (Jesus) was the final sacrifice for their sins. The willful sin was and is unbelief. That is also the "besetting sin" in Hebrews 12:1. Don't worry about sinning willfully. As long as you are in this flesh you will mess up. But the blood of Jesus Christ God's son Cleanses us from ALL sin. Now if you are not saved, the verse holds true for you also. If you willfully reject Christ, there is no more sacrifice. It's Him, or nothing. He said "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man cometh unto the father but by me".


Galatians 5:4

"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

How can it be that we are eternally secure in Christ, and yet here it implies that we can fall from grace? Satan has used this scripture (Yes, he knows how) to keep many of God's precious Children in bondage to a fear of "falling away", or losing salvation. Let's examine.
One reason we are "fanatics" on the KJV is because we learn after a while that words are important. Picture a box. It is a large box. You are standing ON the box, someone else is IN the box, and since our imaginary box is suspended in the air, someone else is climbing UP to the box and is close to being IN the box. However before he gets IN the box, the ladder slips and he falls FROM the box. Just an illustration. The ones who are "fallen FROM grace" never got IN grace to start with. They were much like today's Seventh Day Adventists, who, while professing faith in Christ, insist that it is necessary to keep some of the Law to remain saved. That is Just the error Paul is teaching against here. He is simply saying that If you don't receive salvation as a free gift, you have believed in vain, You got right up to grace, but being unable or unwilling to receive Christ as a free gift of grace, you have fallen FROM that grace. You were never saved to start with. You couldn't let go of the law. You were never IN, because if you were IN you couldn't fall OUT, but if you were OUT and heading IN, you could fall FROM."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey I hope this helps.

God bless you in your studies,

Robert

 

[francisdesales]

When he tells them that if they sin willfully, first he is not talking to you. He is writing to Hebrew people who know life under the law, and now have been shown why Jesus Came. If they WILLFULLY REJECT HIM (sin willfully) There is not going to be another sacrifice somewhere down the road. He (Jesus) was the final sacrifice for their sins. The willful sin was and is unbelief.

That is not correct, Robert. The context clearly tells us that the author of Hebrews is addressing Christians, not Jews living under the Law.

And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? Heb 10:24-29

I have underlined all the words that show that the author, a Christian, was writing to other Christians...

First, he uses the plural pronouns, we, us. He considers himself a part of the recipient of the letter. Secondly, the Christians were not meeting with Jews, assembling together to worship. Thirdly, the "day approaching" is a Christian term of Christ's parousia. Fourthly, the author makes a comparision of lesser to greater, signifying that the Christians would suffer even more punishment for "trodding on the Son of God" AFTER being sanctified. The Jews do not fit into the category of being sanctified - baptized in the Spirit.

Regards

 

[unred typo]

Long post alert! Grab a coffee: :morning: :-D

quote by bibleberean:

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.


I know I presently have eternal life. even though my body is dead because of sin. Above verse Romans 8:10

I know I have eternal life presently. The total fulfillment is yet to come when this mortal puts on immortality. (In the future) 1 Corinthians 15.

Romans 8:10 has a condition to life, stated right in the verse. This is what I mean about having to state the obvious here. It says, ‘because of righteousness.’ We must have righteousness in order to have life. We cannot be evil and murderous have life. We cannot be selfish and greedy and have life. We cannot be lustful and adulterous and have life. We cannot have the righteousness of Christ if we have not repented of and forsaken the sins that so easily beset us, as Paul said. This is the problem with your list of verses. They are conditional on having righteousness.

Now, you can believe like beloved57 does, that God gives you righteousness without expecting you to repent and follow Christ but you aren’t going to get any further than he has with that nonsense. When the Holy Spirit convicts you of the wrongness of that fallacy, you will have to cover your ears and do “LaLaLa.†Well, it is the season, so go ahead, if that's how you want to get your jollies.

quote by bibleberean:
1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Once you are born again "nothing and no one can separate you from the love of Christ including yourself.

It is possible to believe that you are saved when you are not. You could hear the word and believe without becoming born again.

Here’s the thing. You must believe what Jesus taught or you don’t really believe in him. What you have is a Jesus Claus, not a Jesus Christ. It’s not that you must believe that Jesus exists and that he is going to fill your stockings with love and life and lalala. You must repent and then be saved from your sins by living as he taught us. He said the words he spoke were spirit and life to those who not only heard and believed them, but did them.

Yes, I agree you can hear the word and believe without becoming born again. First of all, you could hear the wrong gospel. The gospel is if you repent and follow Christ, you will be saved. He has died to make this a reality for you. His blood is sufficient to cover your sins, if you confess and repent of them. If you turn over a new leaf, God will give you new life. If you hear that God chose you and you’re all set, no matter what you do, it’s not what Jesus taught.

Secondly, God decides when you will be ready to be born again. If you have truly repented of all your sins, and have total faith in Christ to lead you, he probably will start the process immediately. Do you have faith that he can lead you to walk everyday in the light of love and forgiveness for all your fellowmen? Are you ready to take up your cross and die to self and sin? Are you ready to say, “I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me†or are you reserving some things that you want to do that God would not approve of?

You’re not going to be born again if you are not ready to ‘come out’ in righteousness. You can’t be half-born, one foot left in the womb, and you can‘t be half born-again. You‘re not ready. You have to be ready to leave it all behind to follow Christ.

quote by bibleberean:
Eternal life is eternal and a true believer has it now. There is a future event but I am a son of God now and will be like Christ when He appears.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Note: "Now we are the sons of God"

Note: John is talking to believers who have left all to follow Christ. These are men and women who are ready to die for their faith. These are believers who died to their flesh and pick up their cross daily and follow Christ.

quote by bibleberean:
The Hebrews who went back to Judaism after tasting the power of the Spirit and hearing the gospel and having a form of enlightenment but not been converted could not be saved because they would have rejected Christ and went back to the sacrifices and shamed the cross and the Lord's "finished" work there on.

Here is a excerpt that may help clear things up for you.

Note this is not a blanket endorsement for everything written here but it may help you understand.

http://www.sounddoctrine.com/hardscript.htm

I’m not going to take the time needed to argue with another web site view. Put it in your own words and let’s talk about it. If you don’t have the time to type it, neither do I. I went to your site. He lost me on the first word. It started out, “Confused?†I’m not. I know you believe I am, but I’m trying to correct that image you have of me. I appreciate your concern. I really do, but I‘m not the one you should be concerned about.

As for the Hebrews who went back to Judaism, I agree. They did crucify the Lord afresh. This was bad, because it showed that they didn’t really believe that the blood of Christ was sufficient to cover their sins even if they repented of them. They didn’t believe that by following the teachings of Christ, the blood was going to do the work needed to reverse the curse of death. They thought his one death was not enough to pay for all their sin. That doesn't change the application I made.

quote by bibleberean:
Heb 6:4-6

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I quoted that section to show you that it was possible for those who were born again to lose their eternal life, which was claimed to be impossible to happen. They crucified the Lord afresh and put him to open shame by going back to Judaism. Do you honestly believe that is the only way we can put him to open shame? This verse is sobering in that it clearly shows that these men were born again and lost ‘eternal’ life because they lost their belief that Christ was sufficient for their salvation. As Peter said when the Lord asked him if he would leave too, “To whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.â€Â

quote by bibleberean:
This one will take a bit of study. First up. When was Hebrews written, to whom was it written and what was it's purpose?

How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; Hebrews 2:3

The writer of Hebrews got his information from those who were contemporary with Jesus Christ. (confirmed unto us by them that heard him;) That will place it's message as valid during the time of Christ, and will make the message that which Christ and John the Baptist preached. The book was written to the "Hebrews". That makes the recipients of this "mail" Jewish (Hebrew). It's purpose was to help these Hebrews see the fulfillment of the Old Testament tabernacle, priesthood, and sacrificial system of worship in Jesus Christ."

Sure, it was written to reestablish the sufficiency of the blood of Christ to those who were in danger of losing faith in it’s power. I agree. The reason I brought it up was to show that eternal life can be cut off. Hebrews was written to prevent that in these people. The statement was made, ‘eternal life is eternal’ and ‘everlasting life is everlasting’ as if it could never be cut off from the people who do not live up to their part of the new covenant in Christ.

quote by bibleberean:

Hebrews 10:26,27

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. .

If you sin willfully? When did you ever sin when it was not "willfully?" Then most likely there will be no one saved. All will be consigned to hell. But - did Jesus die in vain? Or, is there another answer to this conundrum?

That’s the whole point. If you are sinning willfully, you have not repented of that sin. You are holding back some of your sins that you refuse to give up. What is it? Your ego and pride? Your little flirtatious affair with the office tramp? Your gluttony, drunkenness, drug addiction, sexual perversion? Your disdain and apathy for the poor? Your hatred for the blacks, whites, Hispanics, Muslims, Irish, Scots? Your hatred for your _____-in-law? You have been set free. Live like it. If you fall in the mud of sin, you have an advocate and a helper who can lift you up again and clean you off. You may fall again, but that is not the same as lying down in it, is it.

quote by bibleberean:
If we are going to find the correct answer, It will be one that takes the context of the entire book of Hebrews into account. As we learned before, Hebrews was an early book. It was written to (here we go again} HEBREWS. Hebrews was written to bring Jews, raised under the law of Moses, to an understanding of the superiority of Jesus Christ to that system. Read Hebrews. See how many times the word "better" shows up (in a King James Bible). No, instead I'll just tell you. Thirteen times. In those 13 times we discover That Jesus is better than the Angels (the Jews didn't know this). He offered a better hope, a better testament, a better covenant, better promises, better sacrifices, a better country, a better and enduring substance, and better things than Abel.

IOW, if we are going to get this book to NOT apply to us in any way, we are going to need more than a shovel. We are going to have to bulldoze the whole mess onto the Jews.

quote by bibleberean:
When he tells them that if they sin willfully, first he is not talking to you. He is writing to Hebrew people who know life under the law, and now have been shown why Jesus Came. If they WILLFULLY REJECT HIM (sin willfully) There is not going to be another sacrifice somewhere down the road. He (Jesus) was the final sacrifice for their sins. The willful sin was and is unbelief. That is also the "besetting sin" in Hebrews 12:1. Don't worry about sinning willfully. As long as you are in this flesh you will mess up. But the blood of Jesus Christ God's son Cleanses us from ALL sin. Now if you are not saved, the verse holds true for you also. If you willfully reject Christ, there is no more sacrifice. It's Him, or nothing. He said "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man cometh unto the father but by me".

There are sins that are not unto death, but if you are sinning willfully, you have not even given up that sin, whatever it is. If you have sins that you didn’t repent of, they are not covered by the blood. If you confess your sin, he is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all sin.

Ephesians 5:5-6
5For this you know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

quote by bibleberean:
Galatians 5:4

"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

How can it be that we are eternally secure in Christ, and yet here it implies that we can fall from grace? Satan has used this scripture (Yes, he knows how) to keep many of God's precious Children in bondage to a fear of "falling away", or losing salvation. Let's examine.
One reason we are "fanatics" on the KJV is because we learn after a while that words are important. Picture a box. It is a large box. You are standing ON the box, someone else is IN the box, and since our imaginary box is suspended in the air, someone else is climbing UP to the box and is close to being IN the box. However before he gets IN the box, the ladder slips and he falls FROM the box. Just an illustration. The ones who are "fallen FROM grace" never got IN grace to start with. They were much like today's Seventh Day Adventists, who, while professing faith in Christ, insist that it is necessary to keep some of the Law to remain saved. That is Just the error Paul is teaching against here. He is simply saying that If you don't receive salvation as a free gift, you have believed in vain, You got right up to grace, but being unable or unwilling to receive Christ as a free gift of grace, you have fallen FROM that grace. You were never saved to start with. You couldn't let go of the law. You were never IN, because if you were IN you couldn't fall OUT, but if you were OUT and heading IN, you could fall FROM."

As good as your analogy was, and we love those, it doesn’t depict what you claimed in your last bit. You said that the sin that the Hebrews had was going back to the sacrificial system and not counting the blood of Christ holy enough to cover their sin. The law here is the law that the Jews lived by.

When Paul said ‘the Law’ to them, it meant usually the entire system of sacrificial animals and rules for offerings to cover certain sins, animals that were clean, rites and ceremonies and washings that had to be done in accordance with those very strict rules. There is both a moral and a ceremonial law and there is another law, which is a better law…the law of love, which is the commands of Christ that he taught us to live *live* by. Falling from grace is falling away from the law of Christ back down to the lesser law of ceremonies and commands that were just a shadow of the things to come in Christ, where we have the laws written on our hearts (not just on a scroll) and we have the Holy Spirit to lead us to do right (not just a Pharisee, a lawyer or a scribe) and the blood of Christ to cleanse us from all sin (not just the blood of an animal that had to be continually offered over and over again). The end of the old law is to follow the law of Christ:
1 Timothy 1
5Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

quote by bibleberean:
Hey I hope this helps.

It was a fine attempt and well written but it doesn’t change what the Bible says:


Revelation 22:12-16
12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14Blessed are thy that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.

I’m so glad it doesn’t say and “whosoever maketh a long post, longer…†:o :-D

 

[bibleberean]

I didn't say that the Hebrews were Jews living under the law but that they lived during the time when Jews were to leave the law to follow Christ.

If they returned to follow the law "There is no more sacrifice for sin" down the road.

Believers are now sons of God.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Believers are presently saved.

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

True believers were children of wrath but are now saved...

Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


We are not saved by our own righteousness


Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

We are have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us.

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

I am saved and eternally secure in Christ.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

I am sealed until the day of Redemption.

Ephesians 1:13-14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

I know in whom I have believed and who will keep me saved and secure until that day :D


2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

 

[unred typo]

OK, I see you were not too busy to type up your beliefs. I can’t ignore your good efforts. I’ll make time to address your post.

quote by bibleberean:
I didn't say that the Hebrews were Jews living under the law but that they lived during the time when Jews were to leave the law to follow Christ.

If they returned to follow the law "There is no more sacrifice for sin" down the road.

I understood what you meant. I didn’t say that the Hebrews were not believers or that they were living under the law. Where did you get that idea?

quote by bibleberean:
Believers are now sons of God.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

John is speaking to born again believers here. Those who have forsaken all their sins and been regenerated. They have not yet been given eternal life but they have life that will never end if they continue to follow Christ as they have committed themselves to do. We can be born again when we have repented of all our sins and forsaken all our evil ways in faith and sincerity and resolved to follow all that Christ commanded and the Spirit leads us to do.

quote by bibleberean:
Believers are presently saved.

1 Corinthians 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
True believers were children of wrath but are now saved...

Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The idea here is that we are saved from sin if we continue to follow the way of eternal life, ( notice 1 Cor 15:2; IF YOU KEEP IN MEMORY what I preached to you) which is righteousness made perfect by the blood of Christ.

If you are in a canoe headed toward Niagara Falls, unable to paddle out of the current, and someone throws you a rope, you are SAVED as long as you continue to pull yourself along the rope to the shore. If you let go of the rope, and try paddling again, are you still saved by the rope? The word ‘saved’ denotes a continued action here. If you stop doing what saved you, you fall from that standing. Now, we still disagree on what saved us, but we’ll talk about that next.

quote by bibleberean:
We are not saved by our own righteousness

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

We are not saved by our righteousness if we have to be washed every time we sin in order to have the righteousness required. We could only claim to be saved by our own righteousness if we never sinned and lived a perfect life like Christ did. We are saved by the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit This means that as we live as righteously as we can possibly live, when we stumble and fall in the mud of sin, we are not lost if we repent and the Spirit washes us to perfection again.

It’s like when you were a kid, and Dad promised you a whoopin if you got your Sunday clothes dirty, and when you fell in the mud, your mother took your clothes and washed and dried them before your dad found out. You were not saved from a whoopin’ by your own cleanliness, but by your mom’s mercy. That doesn’t mean that you are not saved from a whoopin by cleanliness and that you do not have to keep clean. Your efforts may fall short, but if you don’t put your effort into it, you can’t expect your mother to take your plight seriously. If you are not trying, why should she? You would be disrespecting her mercy and grace.

quote by bibleberean:
We are have the righteousness of Christ imputed to us.

Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

His righteous word keeps us from sin when we obey it. If we fall from righteousness, we must repent. When we repent, we are washed of our sin. This cleanliness is not because we were never dirty but because the blood was available to make us clean. The blood is available because Christ was perfect in righteousness and his righteous blood covers our sin, and makes us clean. His righteousness was a perfect righteousness that never needed cleaning, and his blood makes our righteousness perfect before God when we have faith in Christ to repent and continue to follow him in that same faith, believing his words are the words of eternal life.

quote by bibleberean:
I am saved and eternally secure in Christ.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

No man can force you to sin. No man can force you to reject Christ and stop believing in his words. Only you can do that. If you continue to have faith and believe in what Christ said, and do it, you are eternally secure. That does not say you can not choose to leave the protection and security of his hand, or that you cannot voluntarily reject him.

quote by bibleberean:
I am sealed until the day of Redemption.

Ephesians 1:13-14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

You have the wrong idea about sealed here. When a letter was sealed, it was not sealed so that the seal could not be broken. When Jesus tomb was sealed, it was sealed to officially show that it had not been tampered with and as a way to show if it was in the future.

quote by bibleberean:
I know in whom I have believed and who will keep me saved and secure until that day

2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

I know in whom I have believed and am persuaded that he is able to keep all that I have committed unto him until that day as Paul said.

That’s why we must hold fast to the words that Jesus spoke about forgiveness, faith and love which is how we remain in Christ Jesus. His words are what we need to keep by the Holy Spirit which dwells in us when we walk in his ways. If we keep his words, they will keep us.

 

[bibleberean]

Unred typo,

I really don't think you addressed the points saying anything new or giving a clear refutation of what is written.

I appreciate your effort but I am not going spend much of my energy trying to refute what I have already refuted. (for the time being anyway) And I am sure you feel the same way.

I am giving a bible study tonight and have to get ready. I do appreciate our conversation.

God bless and keep studying,

Robert

 

[mondar]

Bibleberean,
I wish to respond to your post you made on Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:38 am (bottom of page 1).

When you write about Hebrews 6, you quote Hebrews 2:3...
"How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; Hebrews 2:3"
It seems to me you have correctly identified the context of the first part of the book of Hebrews. You are correct that hebrews 6:4-6 is not about salvation, but rather it is about the neglect of salvation. Hebrew 6:9 points out the same identical thing you referred to, the neglect of salvation. Salvation has its fruits. The fruit does not make the salvation, but the salvation makes the fruit. Heb 6:9 says,
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak:
The fact that the people in 6:4-6 were not saved can be seen that there was no fruit. The "things that accompany salvation" were not present in the lives of the Hebrews.

Verses 7-8 speak of their works.
7 For the land which hath drunk the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them for whose sake it is also tilled, receiveth blessing from God: 8 but if it beareth thorns and thistles, it is rejected and nigh unto a curse; whose end is to be burned.

The thorns and thistles were not things that "accompany salvation." These thorns and thistles are parallel with the word "dead works" in Hebrews 6:1. It is not that the Jews had no works. They had the works of a system of law that was the highest moral expression known to man. The law was the apex of revealed morality. The law lead to dead works only because mans nature is dead in sin and trusspasses (Eph 2:1). The reason their works were dead is because the hebrews had merely:
"tasted of the heavenly gift" and "tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come"
They had not swollowed the heavenly gift, but merely tasted it. They were partakers of the holy Spirit only when they observed and received benefit from Gods work in the lives of other saved hebrews (remnant).

All this relates to the later theme of "Crusifying the son of God afresh" in Heb 10.
10 By which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest indeed standeth day by day ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, the which can never take away sins: 12 but he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 henceforth expecting till his enemies be made the footstool of his feet. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
There is only a once and for all sacrifice of the son of God. As the great high priest, he presented his own blood on the heavenly altar only one time. There never was a resacrifice of Christ. There never was the addition of our own works to the blood of Jesus Christ. That sacrifice was once and for all. It was final, it was absolute, it was complete.
Notice in 10:11, the resacrifice of the priesthood can never take away sin. This was the Hebrew mistake. As they reverted works and the sacrificial system, they had lost Christ. Today, many want to allow for a concept of the atonement that makes it dependant upon our own works and not the sacrifice of Christ. Our own works come and go, we have the weakness of the flesh, and cannot be consistant. Therefore when our works are inserted into the equasion, a concept of resacrifice is always the result. One can then fall away, come back, and fall away again. The concept of the resacrifice of Christ is always an abomination. This concept is also found in Heb 6:6 in the phrase "seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
Without a once and for all concept of the sacrifice of Christ for all sin, there is only putting Christ to open shame. Bibleberean, in your post you have not done this, and are to be applauded.

 

[Drew]

This was the Hebrew mistake. As they reverted works and the sacrificial system, they had lost Christ. Today, many want to allow for a concept of the atonement that makes it dependant upon our own works and not the sacrifice of Christ. Our own works come and go, we have the weakness of the flesh, and cannot be consistant. Therefore when our works are inserted into the equasion, a concept of resacrifice is always the result.

And yet on the matter of the granting of eternal life, Paul clearly asserts that it is something that will happen on a future day of judgement, a day when works will indeed be the determining factor.

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

The argument that this criteria is met by no one and that in later chapters of Romans, Paul gives us the "correct" answer as to how eternal life is granted, makes Paul out to be a desperately confused and incoherent writer.

What kind of a writer would say the following and intend the reader to understand that the number of people condemned according to the stated "works" criteria is non-zero but that the number of people given eternal life in accordance with the stated "works" criteria is zero.

5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Are these "our works". No they are not. They are the work of the Spirit. So, despite frequent misrepresentations of my position here, I am not, as the careful reader will note, suggesting that we can, in any reasonable sense whatsoever, "earn" our ultimate justification.

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit

12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligationâ€â€but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live

If Paul really believed that eternal life was assured at the "moment of conversion" why woud he issuse such a warning - a warning directed to those already in the church and clearly suggesting that the matter of being awarded eternal life has not (***forgot the "not" in my first version) been irrevocably settled.

 

[mondar]

Drew, there is no atonement in Romans 2. The context is simply not about salvation in Christ.

The context of Chapter 2 is eminently clear. IT is about the works of the Mosaic Law. The context is easily identifiable as Jewish in nature.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:17 But if thou bearest the name of a Jew, and restest upon the law, and gloriest in God,

Without the atoning death of Christ in the context, you have only your own evil works. Thats why Chpater 2-3 conclude in 3:19.

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God:

Yes, works is in the context of Chapter 2. But only Chapter 3 makes it clear that there are none righteous. There is not even one that seeks God.

Pauls Gospel is the gospel of faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Three is no other Gospel. a Gospel of works ony brings debt. ( Romans 4:4).

Now if you look in Romans 4 you will see a gospel. Chapter 4 is absent of a Jewish context. I know unred foolishly asserted that Chapter 4 is about the Law. The absurdity of that can easily be demonstrated by looking at the very first illustration of faith in the life of Abraham. Was Abraham before or after the law? He was before the law. So then the works found in Romans 4:2 refer not to the works of the law, but just simply works. Thats why Paul asserts that works only brings debt in verse 4. Paul quotes Abraham in Romans 4:3. Abraham was not even circumcised in Genesis 15:6. Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone. There is no other gospel.