Grace or Law?

[mattiyahu]

I'm not fight your beliefs.
I just want to share to you what I have learned.
I'm not trying to convert you to another religion.
I'm not adding another religion on the 30,000.
Research what I have shared to you, so you can see it for yourselves.

Torah is a hebrew word, it was translated as Nomos in Greek, to English being LAW.

Moreover, Torah is Instructions, Hobbies, Teachings, and Hit the Mark.

Torah is to hit the mark, its root word is Yarah, use in archery, meaning to hit the mark, the opposite is true, when we don't do the Torah, we are missing the mark.

Its not making us under the Law, its making us free from sins and its curses, like in

Joh 8:32 you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

The truth is the Torah, Yeshua (Jesus) Obeyed the Torah, how can He be the Messiah if He didn't do what was G-d's will, how can Yeshua, be the spotless lamb? We are set apart from sin because of the Torah, moreover no one except G-d perfects the Torah.

What is the Torah? Where can it be found?

Actually, we have been reading it, moreover we don't always understand it. Torah is equals Bible.

B-Basic

I-Instructions

B-Before

L-Leaving

E-Earth

Every instructions in the Bible is G-d's words.

Yeah, we are under the era of Grace yada yada yada...

Moreover, is that what the Holy Writings says?

Heb 10:28 Anyone who disobeys the Torah of Moses is put to death without any mercy when judged guilty from the evidence of two or more witnesses.

Heb 10:29 What, then, of those who despise the Son of God? who treat as a cheap thing the blood of God's covenant which purified them from sin? who insult the Spirit of grace? Just think how much worse is the punishment they will deserve!

We better rethink the concept of Grace.

Yeshua (Jesus) said:

Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to do away with the Torah of Moses and the teachings of the prophets. I have not come to do away with them, moreover to make their teachings come true.

Mat 5:18 Remember that as long as heaven and earth last, not the least point nor the smallest detail of the Torah will be done away with---not until the end of all things.

Mat 5:19 So then, whoever disobeys even the least important of the commandments and teaches others to do the same, will be least in the Kingdom of heaven. On the other hand, whoever obeys the Torah and teaches others to do the same, will be great in the Kingdom of heaven.

The Torah is the foundation in G-d's Kingdom.

Keeping the Torah is not to be save, Keeping the Torah because you are already saved.

The Torah tells us the right things to do.

If we remove the Torah, we actually have killed ourselves.

The Torah is our personality, we cannot live w/o it.

I'm very certain about that.

The Torah is not only for the Jews.

Exo 12:17 Keep this festival, because it was on this day that I brought your tribes out of Egypt. For all time to come you must celebrate this day as a festival.

Exo 12:18 From the evening of the fourteenth day of the first month to the evening of the twenty-first day, you must not eat any bread made with yeast.

Exo 12:19 For seven days no yeast must be found in your houses, for if anyone, native-born or FOREIGN, eats bread made with yeast, he shall no longer be considered one of my people."

G-d mentions the Foreign peoples being part of G-d's appointented times.

The Feast of G-d.

Exo 12:36 And the LORD gave the people favour in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they let them have what they asked. And they despoiled the Egyptians.

Exo 12:37 And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, beside children.

Exo 12:38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.

see? a mixed multitude went w/ the Isralites, so everybody can be grafted in w/ Israel, we should treasure that the G-d we know, worship, obey and praise.

Is the G-d of Israel.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Messiah Yeshua hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Yeshua, has paid for the our sins. He didn't freed us from the Torah.

Treasure this:

Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to do away with the Torah of Moses and the teachings of the prophets. I have not come to do away with them, moreover to make their teachings come true.

Mat 5:18 Remember that as long as heaven and earth last, not the least point nor the smallest detail of the Torah will be done away with---not until the end of all things.

And why would David, write so many beautiful poetry and songs for the LAW?
If it is a ugly thing. Read the whole Psalm 119.

 

[glorydaz]

It isn't an ugly thing. It also saved no one, it only revealed sin to man, and was the "ministration of death.

Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

Jesus fulfilled the law while here, and brought in a New and better Covenant, established upon better promises.

Hebrews 8:6 - But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Hebrews 12:24 - And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

What is said to perish is the Old Covenant...it waxes old and is changed.

Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.

[quote:2wclux42]Hebrews 1:11 - They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

Hebrews 8:13 - In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

[/quote:2wclux42]

The law was the school master to bring us to Christ.

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

We see the two covenants. The one from Sinai, "which gendereth to bondage" was Hagar, the bondwoman. We are not of the bondwoman, but the free...children of the Promise.

But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

 

[Ahuli]

I'm not fight your beliefs.
I just want to share to you what I have learned.
I'm not trying to convert you to another religion.
I'm not adding another religion on the 30,000.
.

If you have not personally counted the religions on this planet, then you should be careful to make such a claim. On the other hand, if you DID count them, are you sure you did not miscount?

As for grace and law? Have you studied the bible to understand what grace does and what the law does? If you have studied, did you study on a denominational basis or biblical basis. If the latter, how did you come to your conclusions? Thank you.

 

[Packrat]

We see the two covenants.

I think it was veteran in the Definitive Answer on Legalism & Judaizing who inadvertently made me realize that God's Law is not synonymous with any covenant. Rather both covenants dealt with God's Law. So if God's Law is a separate entity from the covenants he makes with his People then we can't say that just because one covenant waxes old and disappears it means that God's Law does likewise. If God's New Covenant with his People writes his Law upon our hearts and puts it in our minds then it would only reinforce it for those of God's People who aren't offended by it.

 

[poohbah]

"[/size]Hebrews 12:24 - And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Abel is mentioned here because it is important to understand that concerning the covenants, he brought the right sacrifice.


Law has not power to save because it is not of covenant, but of practice.

Those who kept the law were in a sense perfected by it..
Hebrews 7:19 "For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God."

Hebrews 9:9 "Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;"

John 2:5 "But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him."

John 7:19 "Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?"

Romans 8:2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

Romans 3:27 "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith."

 

[Packrat]

Those who kept the law were in a sense perfected by it.. Hebrews 7:19 "For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God."

According to that verse it doesn't appear that God's Law makes anyone perfect in any sense. However, by another verse you list it appears that love is perfected in those who obey God's Law. And that would make sense since the commands to love our neighbor as ourselves and God with our whole are found in his Law.

 

[truthlover]

Paul wrote that "'we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully" (1 Tim 1:8, NKJV) Also, agreeing with the law, that it is good, is the basis of grace, writing, "...I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who (sin) but sin that dwells in me." (Ro 7:16-17).

So what does the law say about using it?

Deut 30:2ff: "...You return to the Lord your God and obey His voice, according to all that I command you today, you and your children, with all your heart and all your soul."

The law, per se, is not to be obeyed. Never was. We live by every word that proceeds (present tense) from the mouth of God. No rhema, no hearing. No hearing, no faith. No faith, all sin. All sin, all death.

But, when we return to the Lord our God, what do we ask about? What shall we talk about?

The law.

"...obeying His voice, according to all that..." is in the law.

This tutor brings us to Christ. If we return to God, to talk with Him about His law, and change our lives according to what we hear from His mouth, with the faith that comes in this, this brings us to Jesus, to walk in faith that comes from hearing Him.

Despise prophecy (hearing and confessing what God says to you), and you are back at the tree of knowledge of good and evil. On judgement day, you will be crying, "Lord, Lord" in futility, justly accused of "lawlessness." Because you did not keep the law lawfully.

 

[poohbah]

P, I tried to find the verse to support my statement that people who live the law are in a sense perfected by it. I will try to find it. Ty :nod

 

[truthlover]

Poohbah, Are you looking for Ps 19:7,

"The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul."?

 

[poohbah]

Those who kept the law were in a sense perfected by it.. Hebrews 7:19 "For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God."

According to that verse it doesn't appear that God's Law makes anyone perfect in any sense. However, by another verse you list it appears that love is perfected in those who obey God's Law. And that would make sense since the commands to love our neighbor as ourselves and God with our whole are found in his Law.

In those verese (my above post) it is clearly pointed out that we can keep his word, but the Law is about obeying by works which we do; which is not possible. His commands, you say are found in his Law; but that would mean we have to obey by good works, which don't exist aside from grace. His commands are his good graces toward the believer. They are not obeyed, but the rather.. Matthew 5:19 says we do his commands...

 

[poohbah]

truthlover, I went to dictionary dot com and looked up converge

it sounds as if there is a differance to the reasoning that "his law makes us perfect"

:biglaugh

 

[truthlover]

Poohbah,

In trying to keep the Lord's command to "be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." (Matt 5:48), I've remembered Eph 4:12-13 (NKJV) where the ingredients needed are being ministered to by apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers: equipped. The main work of the apostles is teaching us to keep "all things whatsoever" Jesus commanded His original 12 disciples, so that's what I study. Perfect? Getting there. What has happened has increased my hope.

Not thinking that He came to abolish the law and the prophets, incidently, is the fifth commandment Jesus gave His 12. Strongly encouraged keeping and teaching even the least of these laws.

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

The Torah and the Law are a wonderful and good thing- However ONLY if used lawfully.

mattiyah I truly understand what you are saying and I pray that you will read this carefully and compair it to the whole word of God and pray about it and let truth settle into your heart. I understand firstly that the disobedience in general, overall of christianity can lead people back to the law because many define grace as lasciviousness when in truth grace is the unmerited favor given to us to obey God. But here you have then gone too far away from truth, trying to balance out what was faulty in religion.

Using the law lawfully:
1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully;
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

The law is used FOR THE WICKED. It is NOT MADE for the righteous man. Because all have fallen short of the glory of God, all have been confined under the law as long as sin exists. This is why until heaven and earth pass away not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law. While wicked men exist- there is need for the law to capture them and curse them. HOWEVER, the point that is being missed is that In Christ Jesus we DIE in baptism and we become a NEW CREATION- born from heaven, of heavenly seed, incorruptable. We move from death to life, and from wickedness to righteousness by faith. WHen this happens we DIE TO THE LAW Because the law is binding on our old man our carnal nature. WHen we put to death the old man of our flesh then we are free from the law that bound that flesh and we can be married and joined to another= LIFE, JESUS.
Rom 7:1 ¶ Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to [her] husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of [her] husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while [her] husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.

What you are doing is reading the law and torah and doing so in the oldness of the letter instead of in the Spirit and life.- The law is filled with wisdom FOR US IN CHRIST, however that is given to us now in the SPIRIT not in the letter. What that means is that what was meant for them in the flesh is given to us as spiritual meanings to understand and walk in.

1Cr 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

We are caled to BE and WALK IN the SPIRIT OF THE LAW, not the letter.

Rom 8:1 ¶ [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

You see we are called to a higher calling than they were.And some of what they were given was because of the hardness of their own hearts. God looked for them to walk in faith, but the flesh is bound to its carnal sinful nature and that is all it desires is what is fed by its 5 natural sences. We have past from that carnal flesh to become sons of God who are led by the Spirit of God and are no longer in the flesh.

See you are trying to obey God in the letter, touch not taste not, do this this day etc... But those things are of the letter, they do not truly sanctifiy and renovatre the soul. They do not partake of heavenly promise that casue yo to partake of the divine nature. You are suppose to read what was written and understand it in the Spirit and walk after it in the revelation given to us in the new covenant of what Gods purposes were for it.You cannot simply keep some days and resist certian food etc... You must daily walk in what those things meant.

 

[truthlover]

Good summary, GodspromisesRyes,

The law itself insists that obedience is to the voice of the Lord, as we meditate on the law, day and night. And, as you note, this in response to our dealing with our own wickedness. The Lord commanded to His followers that they "keep all things whatsoever He commanded" His original 12 disciples. These 144 or so commandnments are found throughout the New Testament, and few if any are learning to keep them all. To keep them, there are aspects of the law that prepare the way of the Lord. The same law that tutored us to come to receiving eternal life by grace through faith also tutors us to come to holiness through diligently learning to keep the commandments of Jesus to His original 12.

For example, when I asked the Lord for wisdom about how to repent, and how to teach others to keep the Lord's command to repent, He said to keep the law, "Choose life," by saying "I choose Life!" and meditating on what the Lord means by "life," and "choosing." With this behind me, there were many aspects of repentence that I was prepared for, that I could now bear to hear. Without this preparation, I simply was unable to receive what the Lord wanted to say to me.

So, I learned not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The law now plays no part in my calling and election, but a major part in my pursuit of holiness. Especially the weighty parts of the law: be fruitful, love your neighbor, fear God, choose life, buy the truth.

 

[Scotth1960]

I'm not fight your beliefs.
I just want to share to you what I have learned.
I'm not trying to convert you to another religion.
I'm not adding another religion on the 30,000.
Research what I have shared to you, so you can see it for yourselves.

Torah is a hebrew word, it was translated as Nomos in Greek, to English being LAW.

Moreover, Torah is Instructions, Hobbies, Teachings, and Hit the Mark.

Torah is to hit the mark, its root word is Yarah, use in archery, meaning to hit the mark, the opposite is true, when we don't do the Torah, we are missing the mark.

Its not making us under the Law, its making us free from sins and its curses, like in

Joh 8:32 you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

The truth is the Torah, Yeshua (Jesus) Obeyed the Torah, how can He be the Messiah if He didn't do what was G-d's will, how can Yeshua, be the spotless lamb? We are set apart from sin because of the Torah, moreover no one except G-d perfects the Torah.

What is the Torah? Where can it be found?

Actually, we have been reading it, moreover we don't always understand it. Torah is equals Bible.

B-Basic

I-Instructions

B-Before

L-Leaving

E-Earth

Every instructions in the Bible is G-d's words.

Yeah, we are under the era of Grace yada yada yada...

Moreover, is that what the Holy Writings says?

Heb 10:28 Anyone who disobeys the Torah of Moses is put to death without any mercy when judged guilty from the evidence of two or more witnesses.

Heb 10:29 What, then, of those who despise the Son of God? who treat as a cheap thing the blood of God's covenant which purified them from sin? who insult the Spirit of grace? Just think how much worse is the punishment they will deserve!

We better rethink the concept of Grace.

Yeshua (Jesus) said:

Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to do away with the Torah of Moses and the teachings of the prophets. I have not come to do away with them, moreover to make their teachings come true.

Mat 5:18 Remember that as long as heaven and earth last, not the least point nor the smallest detail of the Torah will be done away with---not until the end of all things.

Mat 5:19 So then, whoever disobeys even the least important of the commandments and teaches others to do the same, will be least in the Kingdom of heaven. On the other hand, whoever obeys the Torah and teaches others to do the same, will be great in the Kingdom of heaven.

The Torah is the foundation in G-d's Kingdom.

Keeping the Torah is not to be save, Keeping the Torah because you are already saved.

The Torah tells us the right things to do.

If we remove the Torah, we actually have killed ourselves.

The Torah is our personality, we cannot live w/o it.

I'm very certain about that.

The Torah is not only for the Jews.

Exo 12:17 Keep this festival, because it was on this day that I brought your tribes out of Egypt. For all time to come you must celebrate this day as a festival.

Exo 12:18 From the evening of the fourteenth day of the first month to the evening of the twenty-first day, you must not eat any bread made with yeast.

Exo 12:19 For seven days no yeast must be found in your houses, for if anyone, native-born or FOREIGN, eats bread made with yeast, he shall no longer be considered one of my people."

G-d mentions the Foreign peoples being part of G-d's appointented times.

The Feast of G-d.

Exo 12:36 And the LORD gave the people favour in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they let them have what they asked. And they despoiled the Egyptians.

Exo 12:37 And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, beside children.

Exo 12:38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle.

see? a mixed multitude went w/ the Isralites, so everybody can be grafted in w/ Israel, we should treasure that the G-d we know, worship, obey and praise.

Is the G-d of Israel.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Messiah Yeshua hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Yeshua, has paid for the our sins. He didn't freed us from the Torah.

Treasure this:

Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to do away with the Torah of Moses and the teachings of the prophets. I have not come to do away with them, moreover to make their teachings come true.

Mat 5:18 Remember that as long as heaven and earth last, not the least point nor the smallest detail of the Torah will be done away with---not until the end of all things.

And why would David, write so many beautiful poetry and songs for the LAW?
If it is a ugly thing. Read the whole Psalm 119.

Friends, God's grace alone saves us in Christ (Eph. 2:8-9), but in keeping with grace received from Christ On High, we must live by faith in good works that God energizes through us (Eph. 2:10), which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. In Erie Scott H.
:nod

 

[savedgeezer]

i respectfully submit that both are required. Faith and obedience were required from the time of Abraham. Abraham believed God and it was accounted as righteousness. Abraham obeyed because he believed. God gave Moses the law in order that His people would be sanctified and set-apart. Be ye holy as I am holy. The reason that covenant failed was that it was dependant on man alone, as the Holy Spirit was not yet given. You are saved by Grace thru faith, yet you are sanctified, made holy, by the keeping of God's law, empowered by the Holy Spirit. The righteous man keeps God's law, thereby escaping the condemnation of it, which is the law we have been set free from. The covenant Jesus brought to the Hebrew was a covenant of faith and obiedience, and that the sacrificial laws had been fulfilled in Him, and that He was the way , the truth, and the life, that no man comes to the Father except thru Him.
Stay Blessed