GRACE????

[watchman F]

There has been much debate as to the functionality of GRACE. All believers love, appreciate, and are grateful for the GRACE of GOD. I believe all agree that we are SAVED BY GRACE (Eph 2:8). Beyond that there seems to be a vast divide in the understanding and explanation of grace. While there are multiple tributaries th...ere appear to be two primary streams of thought.

One thought pattern presents grace as though it was a BIG eraser, instantly erasing any sin committed by a believer. Their position is that once a person prays the sinner’s prayer that ALL SIN past, present, and future is washed away by the blood of Jesus because of the GRACE OF GOD. To them, while it is admirable to live a life that is pleasing to God it is not necessary because the GRACE OF GOD instantly removes any sin committed. Once saved they can never fall from grace thus there is never again an eternal consequence for sin, it’s like having a “get out of Hell free passâ€.

The other thought pattern is that the GRACE OF GOD empowers you to triumph over the tempter’s snare. They define grace as “God’s ability working in you and through you to do what you could never do apart from Himâ€. They believe that the same God who can wash away your past sins can empower you to resist future temptations to sin. They believe that God’s call to holiness was a commandment not a suggestion and realize that apart from the GRACE OF GOD this is impossible for man.

Every man/woman must ask themselves, is the GRACE OF GOD given to make God more like man (blind to our sin or negligent of His Word) or to make man more like God (supernaturally empowered to accomplish His purposes)? Before you offer a casual response born from your traditions; let me remind you that your ETERNAL DESTINY hangs in the balances. You see a “get out of jail free pass†only works in Monopoly; the County Sheriff isn’t impressed. What happens if while standing before God you hand Him your “get out of Hell free pass†and He says, “depart from me ye worker of iniquity, I never knew you.� Matt 7:21-23? You may say, I am not a worker of iniquity; I prayed the sinner’s prayer years ago and He sees nothing beyond that. Are you willing to bet your eternity on that? Verse 22 makes it clear that the people He was talking to had prophesied, cast out devils, and done many wonderful works in His name (one would assume that at one time or another they too had prayed the sinner’s prayer). They thought they should be welcomed into Heaven, (no doubt their doctrine thought them they would) they even argued the point with Jesus; but JESUS judges according to HIS WORD not our interpretation (or in some cases, manipulation) of it.

Let me encourage you to read the Bible in earnest pursuit of truth rather than in attempts to support your preconceived doctrine or ideology. THE GRACE OF GOD TRULY IS AMAZING!

 

[Pard]

Though I suspect this is just another way to preach your sinless perfection doctrine, I'll entertain this.

---

What is grace? It is the thing that washes our sin away from us. All sin; past, present and future. And if we are truly washed in the grace of God, which is given through His Son, we are given His wonderful spirit to fill us and guide us in all matters and affairs.

So, though you have the right idea, I think you are using grace to broadly.

 

[watchman F]

What is grace? It is the thing that washes our sin away from us. All sin; past, present and future.

Note according to scripture
Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God

When we repent of our sin our past sins our forgiven not our present of future

And if we are truly washed in the grace of God, which is given through His Son, we are given His wonderful spirit to fill us and guide us in all matters and affairs.

I am agreement with you here

So, though you have the right idea, I think you are using grace to broadly.

I think you are the one with the broad stroke here

 

[Pard]

No, you misunderstood my meaning of "past, present, and future". I meant that grace will be the thing that washes us of past sin. It is through grace that we are forgiven for the present sin, once we repent. It is also through grace that any future sin will be washed away, when that sin comes to pass. Sorry, that was my fault, I worded it awkwardly.

Not sure how I have the broad stroke, though. If anything perhaps my stroke is to narrow...

 

[watchman F]

No, you misunderstood my meaning of "past, present, and future". I meant that grace will be the thing that washes us of past sin. It is through grace that we are forgiven for the present sin, once we repent. It is also through grace that any future sin will be washed away, when that sin comes to pass. Sorry, that was my fault, I worded it awkwardly.

Well we are in agreement then

Not sure how I have the broad stroke, though. If anything perhaps my stroke is to narrow...

The broad stroke was the all sins forgiven past present and future at the moment of conversion. Which you have cleared up./ however my understanding of grace is anything but broad. I believe as you it is by grace that we are saved, and it is by grace that we remain saved seeing as we in ourselves could not remain obedient to God.

 

[tjw]

There has been much debate as to the functionality of GRACE. All believers love, appreciate, and are grateful for the GRACE of GOD. I believe all agree that we are SAVED BY GRACE (Eph 2:8). Beyond that there seems to be a vast divide in the understanding and explanation of grace. While there are multiple tributaries th...ere appear to be two primary streams of thought.

One thought pattern presents grace as though it was a BIG eraser, instantly erasing any sin committed by a believer. Their position is that once a person prays the sinner’s prayer that ALL SIN past, present, and future is washed away by the blood of Jesus because of the GRACE OF GOD. To them, while it is admirable to live a life that is pleasing to God it is not necessary because the GRACE OF GOD instantly removes any sin committed. Once saved they can never fall from grace thus there is never again an eternal consequence for sin, it’s like having a “get out of Hell free passâ€.

The other thought pattern is that the GRACE OF GOD empowers you to triumph over the tempter’s snare. They define grace as “God’s ability working in you and through you to do what you could never do apart from Himâ€. They believe that the same God who can wash away your past sins can empower you to resist future temptations to sin. They believe that God’s call to holiness was a commandment not a suggestion and realize that apart from the GRACE OF GOD this is impossible for man.

Every man/woman must ask themselves, is the GRACE OF GOD given to make God more like man (blind to our sin or negligent of His Word) or to make man more like God (supernaturally empowered to accomplish His purposes)? Before you offer a casual response born from your traditions; let me remind you that your ETERNAL DESTINY hangs in the balances. You see a “get out of jail free pass†only works in Monopoly; the County Sheriff isn’t impressed. What happens if while standing before God you hand Him your “get out of Hell free pass†and He says, “depart from me ye worker of iniquity, I never knew you.� Matt 7:21-23? You may say, I am not a worker of iniquity; I prayed the sinner’s prayer years ago and He sees nothing beyond that. Are you willing to bet your eternity on that? Verse 22 makes it clear that the people He was talking to had prophesied, cast out devils, and done many wonderful works in His name (one would assume that at one time or another they too had prayed the sinner’s prayer). They thought they should be welcomed into Heaven, (no doubt their doctrine thought them they would) they even argued the point with Jesus; but JESUS judges according to HIS WORD not our interpretation (or in some cases, manipulation) of it.

Let me encourage you to read the Bible in earnest pursuit of truth rather than in attempts to support your preconceived doctrine or ideology. THE GRACE OF GOD TRULY IS AMAZING!

I am glad you made this thread. I am very interested in hearing everyone's responses.

Can I make a suggestion...

Can we use examples that involve real life situations? And then also back up everything with Scripture...

 

[watchman F]

I think that is a good idea what is your real life experience tjw?

 

[Joe67]

Grace is the house of God. Faith is the birthright that authorizes you to enter this house. In this house we eat at our Lord's table, then we get up when he gets up and we follow him as he goes out to work.

Rom 5:1-5
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. KJV

Joe

 

[tjw]

I think that is a good idea what is your real life experience tjw?

For example:

Person "A"- Believes that Jesus is Saviour and that Jesus dying for our sins is a fact. Also believes that they don't need to do anything different in their life in order to go to Heaven because they believe that "believing that Jesus is Saviour and that Jesus died for our sins" is all that people have to do to be saved. So, person "A" continues to knowingly live a sinful life.

Is person "A" saved ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE? Please provide Scripture in your answer.

Person "B"- Believes that Jesus is Saviour and that Jesus dying for our sins is a fact. Believes that he/she (person "B") MUST do certain works as well as believe in Jesus in order to go to Heaven. This person sins occasionally, but does not try to sin and does not want to sin. This person commits a sin just before their death without asking for forgiveness for that specific sin.

Is person "B" saved ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE? Please provide Scripture in your answer.

Person "C"- Believes that Jesus is Saviour and that Jesus dying for our sins is a fact. Believes that we are not saved by our works, but that works will be done by a person that truly believes in Jesus and trusts in Jesus. Person "C" sins occasionally, but does not try to sin and does not want to sin. Person "C" commits a sin just before their death without asking for forgiveness for that specific sin.

Is person "C" saved ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE? Please provide Scripture in your answer.

These questions are for anyone who wants to answer them...

 

[tjw]

I think that is a good idea what is your real life experience tjw?

For example:

Person "A"- Believes that Jesus is Saviour and that Jesus dying for our sins is a fact. Also believes that they don't need to do anything different in their life in order to go to Heaven because they believe that "believing that Jesus is Saviour and that Jesus died for our sins" is all that people have to do to be saved. So, person "A" continues to knowingly live a sinful life.

Is person "A" saved ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE? Please provide Scripture in your answer.

Person "B"- Believes that Jesus is Saviour and that Jesus dying for our sins is a fact. Believes that he/she (person "B") MUST do certain works as well as believe in Jesus in order to go to Heaven. This person sins occasionally, but does not try to sin and does not want to sin. This person commits a sin just before their death without asking for forgiveness for that specific sin.

Is person "B" saved ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE? Please provide Scripture in your answer.

Person "C"- Believes that Jesus is Saviour and that Jesus dying for our sins is a fact. Believes that we are not saved by our works, but that works will be done by a person that truly believes in Jesus and trusts in Jesus. Person "C" sins occasionally, but does not try to sin and does not want to sin. Person "C" commits a sin just before their death without asking for forgiveness for that specific sin.

Is person "C" saved ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE? Please provide Scripture in your answer.

These questions are for anyone who wants to answer them...

I would like to add that we should not judge people.

With these examples, I am trying to get a better understanding of salvation.

 

[watchman F]

I think that is a good idea what is your real life experience tjw?

For example:

Person "A"- Believes that Jesus is Saviour and that Jesus dying for our sins is a fact. Also believes that they don't need to do anything different in their life in order to go to Heaven because they believe that "believing that Jesus is Saviour and that Jesus died for our sins" is all that people have to do to be saved. So, person "A" continues to knowingly live a sinful life.

Is person "A" saved ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE? Please provide Scripture in your answer.

No person A is not saved.
Hebrews 10
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Person "B"- Believes that Jesus is Saviour and that Jesus dying for our sins is a fact. Believes that he/she (person "B") MUST do certain works as well as believe in Jesus in order to go to Heaven. This person sins occasionally, but does not try to sin and does not want to sin. This person commits a sin just before their death without asking for forgiveness for that specific sin.

Is person "B" saved ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE? Please provide Scripture in your answer.

Well I am not sure what ''certain works'' you mean, you might want to be more specific. However our own righteousness is as filthy rags. any good we do should be done by the Spirit of Christ that lives within us. So I am not sure if this person is really saved or just religious. However if they were saved God would not send them to Hell because they may or may not have ''sinned'' right before their death.

Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Person "C"- Believes that Jesus is Saviour and that Jesus dying for our sins is a fact. Believes that we are not saved by our works, but that works will be done by a person that truly believes in Jesus and trusts in Jesus. Person "C" sins occasionally, but does not try to sin and does not want to sin. Person "C" commits a sin just before their death without asking for forgiveness for that specific sin.

Is person "C" saved ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE? Please provide Scripture in your answer.

These questions are for anyone who wants to answer them...

Same answer as before I do not know if person C has ever had a true conversion or not but if he had one sin just before death will not condemn them.



The true answer is D some one who not only believes Jesus is Savior, not only asked Him to be Lord of their life, but they have a true conversion, being born again in the Spirit falling deeply in love with Jesus, and lives their life to please their Lord putting nothing above Him. When they do slip up they repent immediately putting those thing that are past behind them (good or bad) and continues to move forward toward the high calling of Christ Jesus

Philippians 3
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

 

[XTruth]

I'd like to start a good reference point of passages here. Human reasonings and scenerios often get in the way of correct biblical doctrines. I find that looking at what Scripture claims of a subject is the best first step in order to conform your mind to the Word... forming an opinion first will often cloud the truth; we end up trying to make clear statements of Scripture conform to our initial thoughts.

The following is from the Dake Annotated Reference Bible: If you disagree, then please attack the research, not the man... We literally have 38,000 denominations in Christianity. Some love Dake, some don't. Here is what Scripture claims of grace:

The Truth about Grace

Why would His labor be in vain if there was no possibility of Satan tempting Christians, causing them to fall and be lost? Surely Paul understood the grace of God and its limitations to those who refuse to obey the gospel, for he used the word 110 of the 156 times the Greek: charis (NT:5485) (grace) is found in the New Testament.

It is true that grace cannot be withheld from man because of demerit, lessened by demerit, or be mixed with the law of works; but this does not prove that there are no conditions men must meet in order to get the benefits of grace. Not one scripture teaches unconditional grace, or that God gives grace to men who disobey the gospel. If so, then God is under obligation to save all, even sinners who disobey if He saves even one (Romans 2:11). God is under obligation to saints only when they walk in the light and remain true to the gospel (1 John 1:7). He is not under obligation to sinners until they come to full obedience of the gospel. Grace teaches men to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and to live soberly, righteously, and godly here and now (Titus 2:11-12). If people do not obey its teaching grace can go no further. Anyone may:

1. Receive grace in vain (2 Cor. 6:1).

2. Frustrate it in his life (Galatians 2:21).

3. Fall from it (Galatians 1:6-8; Galatians 5:4).

4. Fail of the grace of God (Hebrews 12:15).

5. Turn it into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4).

6. Sin in spite of it (Romans 6:1).

7. Continue or discontinue in it (Acts 13:43).

8. Minister it to others (1 Peter 4:10).

9. Grow or not grow in it (2 Peter 3:18).

10. Receive or reject it (John 3:16; Rev. 22:17; Hebrews 12:15; James 4:6).

Thirty Things that Grace Can Do:

1. Grace can save the world (Genesis 6:8; Ephes. 2:8-9).

2. Grace can give one all good things (Psalm 84:11).

3. Grace can bring men to repentance (Zech. 12:10).

4. Grace can impart great blessings (Acts 4:33).

5. Grace can bring salvation (Titus 2:11-12; Ephes. 2).

6. Grace can impart faith (Acts 18:27).

7. Grace can justify (Romans 3:24-25; Titus 3:7).

8. Grace can overcome sin (Romans 5:20).

9. Grace can reign in life if permitted (Romans 5:21).

10. Grace can make one God's elect (Romans 11:5-6).

11. Grace can give boldness (Romans 15:15).

12. Grace can make partaker of Christ (1 Cor. 10:30).

13. Grace can give power (1 Cor. 15:10).

14. Grace can inspire liberality (2 Cor. 8:1-2,6-9; 2 Cor. 9:8).

15. Grace can give endurance (2 Cor. 12:9).

16. Grace can call people to the ministry (Galatians 1:15).

17. Grace can impart riches (Ephes. 2:7).

18. Grace can inspire singing (Col. 3:16).

19. Grace can give seasoning to speech (Col. 4:6).

20. Grace can give strength (2 Tim. 2:1).

21. Grace can teach (Titus 2:11-12).

22. Grace can give aid in suffering (Hebrews 2:9).

23. Grace can help in time of need (Hebrews 4:16).

24. Grace can give stability (Hebrews 13:9).

25. Grace can give life (1 Peter 3:7).

26. Grace can help render true service (Hebrews 12:28).

27. Grace can become abundant (1 Tim. 1:14).

28. Grace can bring hope (2 Thes. 2:16).

29. Grace can give the ability to preach (Ephes. 3:8).

30. Grace can change lives (1 Cor. 15:10).

Thirty Things that Grace Cannot Do:

1. Set aside forever all condemnation for future sins (John 5:14; John 8:34; Romans 6:1-23; Romans 8:12-13; Galatians 5:21; 2 Cor. 5:10)

2. Set aside failure of saved men to meet the many conditions of salvation (1 John 1:7; Romans 6:1-23; Romans 8:1-13; James 5:19-20; Galatians 5:19-21; Col. 1:23; Col. 2:6-7)

3. Cancel free moral agency (Col. 1:23; 1 John 1:7; Romans 6:16-23; Rev. 22:17)

4. Keep men saved when they sin (Romans 8:12-13; 1 Cor. 6:9-11; Galatians 5:19-21; Galatians 6:7-8; James 5:19-20; Hebrews 6:4-6; Hebrews 10:26-29; 2 Peter 2:20-21)

5. Cancel the death penalty when saved men break the law (Romans 6:16-23; Romans 8:12-13; Hebrews 10:26-29; James 5:19-20; Ezekiel 18:4,20-24; Ezekiel 33:12-13,18)

6. Make God a liar who said every man that sins must die (Ezekiel 18:4; Romans 6:16-23; Romans 8:12-13; Galatians 5:19-21; Galatians 6:7-8; 1 Cor. 6:9-11; Rev. 21:8)

7. Cancel the law of confession of sins before they are forgiven (1 John 1:7,9; Rev. 2:5,16; Rev. 3:19; Luke 13:1-5; Acts 2:38)

8. Forgive future sins, for transgression and confession are necessary before forgiveness (1 John 1:9; Rev. 2:5,16,22; Rev. 3:19; Luke 13:1-5; Acts 2:38; Mark 6:12; Romans 2:4-6; 2 Cor. 7:10)

9. Cancel responsibility of saved men concerning sin (Romans 14:10; 2 Cor. 5:10; Galatians 5:19-21; Galatians 6:7-8; Romans 14:12)

10. Be responsible should saved men backslide (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9; Rev. 2:5; Rev. 3:2; James 5:19-20; Galatians 5:19-21)

11. Free saved men from condemnation for future sins unless confessed (1 John 1:7,9; Rev. 2:5,22; Rev. 3:2; James 5:19-20)

12. Permit God to forgive unconfessed sin (2 Chron. 7:14; 2 Cor. 7:9-10; 1 John 1:9; 2 Tim. 2:25; Rev. 2:5; Rev. 3:2)

13. Bind men so that they cannot sin if they choose to do so (Romans 6:16-23; Romans 8:1-13; 1 John 1:7; Hebrews 6:4-9; Hebrews 10:26-29)

14. Guarantee any man eternal life if he refuses to obey (James 5:19-20; 2 Cor. 3:16-17> Ezekiel 33:12-20)

15. Force obedience (Rev. 22:17; John 3:16-20; Romans 6:16-23; Romans 8:1-13; Galatians 1:6-8; Galatians 5:4; Galatians 6:7-8; 1 John 1:7)

16. Make any man a child of God in the sense Jesus was (John 1:14,18; John 3:16)

17. Force God to continue blessing any man who sins (Ezekiel 18:4; Romans 6:16-23; Romans 8:1-13; Galatians 5:19-21; James 5:19-20)

18. Make the sins of the saved different from the sins of the unsaved (Romans 6:16-23; Romans 8:12-13; 2 Cor. 6:9-11; Galatians 5:19-21; Col. 1:5-10; 2 Peter 2:20-22)

19. Condemn sinners and excuse saints who commit the same sins (Romans 6:16-23; Romans 8:12-13; Romans 14:10-12; Galatians 5:19-21; Galatians 6:7-8; Ezekiel 18:4,24-28; Ezekiel 33:12-16; Rev. 2:5,16,22; Rev. 3:2)

20. Operate in the life of a free moral agent without his consent (John 3:16-20; John 7:17; John 8:34; 2 Peter 3:9; Rev. 22:17)

21. Impart eternal life to men who serve sin and Satan (Matthew 6:24; Romans 6:16-23; Romans 8:1-13; Galatians 5:19-21; Galatians 6:7-8; 1 John 3:8)

22. Keep man from moral falls if they wilfully sin (Romans 6:16-23; Romans 8:1-13; Hebrews 6:4-9; Hebrews 10:26-29; Ezekiel 33:12-20)

23. Force God to go contrary to His own program of grace (Romans 1:16; 1 John 1:7; Hebrews 3:6,12-14; Hebrews 10:26-29)

24. Cancel the law of sowing and reaping (Galatians 6:7-8; Romans 6:16-23; Romans 8:12-13; Ezekiel 18:4,24-28; Ezekiel 33:12-16; Rev. 2:5-22)

25. Guarantee unconditional favor to anyone (2 Cor. 6:1; Galatians 1:6-8; Galatians 2:21; Galatians 5:4; Hebrews 12:15; James 5:19-20)

26. Guarantee unforfeitable life without conditions being met (Romans 6:16-23; Romans 8:12-13; Galatians 5:19-21; Galatians 6:7-8; James 5:19-20; Hebrews 10:26-29; note, John 6:27)

27. Guarantee sinlessness to men unless conditions are met (1 Cor. 3:16-17; Romans 6:16-23; Romans 8:12-13; Galatians 5:16-26; Galatians 6:7-8; Hebrews 6:1-9; Hebrews 10:26-29; Hebrews 12:14-15)

28. Encourage anarchy in God's government (Genesis 2:17; Romans 6:16-23; Romans 8:12-13; 1 Cor. 6:9-11; Galatians 5:19-21; Galatians 6:7-8)

29. Force God to be lenient with rebels (Ezekiel 18:4; Romans 6:23; Romans 8:12-13; Galatians 6:7-8)

30. Give any man a pardon that guarantees him salvation and eternal life regardless of how he lives in sin and rebellion (Exodus 32:32-33; Ezekiel 18:4; Ezekiel 33:10-20; Romans 6:16-23; Romans 8:12-13; Galatians 5:19-21; Galatians 6:7-8)

—Dake's Topics

 

[watchman F]

Good post

 

[Dennyh]

Not sure if this fits in to the discussion but here is what I use to help explain grace to the youth I work with:

God's Standard for us to have a relationship with Him is like a high-jump bar set really high(He said for us to be holy for He is holy).

We cannot jump over the bar by our own power(all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory)

God cannot lower the bar to make it easier for us (God never changes)

Therefore he gives us a platform(grace) in front of the bar to make it possible for us to jump over it.



For by grace are you saved by faith, not of yourself it is the gift of God. Not of works lest any man boast.
Eph. 2:8-9

 

[watchman F]

For by grace are you saved by faith, not of yourself it is the gift of God. Not of works lest any man boast.
Eph. 2:8-9

You do realize the works that can't save us are good works done in our own flesh void of a relationship with Christ. However as James puts it faith without works is dead

 

[Dennyh]

For by grace are you saved by faith, not of yourself it is the gift of God. Not of works lest any man boast.
Eph. 2:8-9

You do realize the works that can't save us are good works done in our own flesh void of a relationship with Christ. However as James puts it faith without works is dead

Right. Belief without action is worthless. I was referring to the fact that good works "good behavior" does not save us.