Grace?

[Nathan]

Ahh, you slipped this in whist I was composing my last post, and answered the door, talked with a neighbor, etc.

It is entirely right to say that grace has been given to mankind since the beginning all the way through now.
Grace has been the only "way" any human has ever been saved.

Been there handy I have left and responded a long time after first starting to type. One time I think it even told me that time had been too long. lol

 

[Nathan]

I would agree that we have had both grace and law from the garden...the trees representing both...and that the entire OT is one long example of the failure of man to keep God's law and God's grace in the face of man's failure.

The Hebrew word "chen" means to show favor, have pity and direct mercy to. This is what "grace" means in the Bible.

So, is it "God's Riches At Christ's Expense?"

Absolutely!!! Because no one, not one human being from Adam to little Ian Hegerich who is still in Caroline's tum, receives grace outside of Christ's work on the cross. It was not "finished" for those folks in the OT, but those whom had faith were rewarded when Christ did finish the work on the cross, just as we are now that it is done.

Not to hijack your thread Nathan, but I wonder, how has the law changed now that Christ has fulfilled it?

Certainly the covenant with Moses has been done away with. A covenant is only binding while both parties live, and Christ died, doing away with the covenant with Moses. However, Christ ushered in a new covenant, an everlasting covenant, as it says in Hebrews 8:

7For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8For finding fault with them, He says,
"BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
9NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
10"FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11"AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,'
FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME,
FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12"FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."
13When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

Now that we are under the new covenant, we are not bound to the old covenant, a covenant with laws written in stone. We have the Holy Spirit who writes His laws upon our hearts.

So yes, grace and law have been with us from the beginning and will remain with us forever, but the nature of law changed when Christ fulfilled the old, and the nature of grace changed when God sent His Spirit to be upon all of us who believe.

See, I understand that Christ fulfilled the law, but sometimes we think that means He changed it. And I think those are two separate words with different definitions. You admit, and I would too, that grace has always been the "way" in which we are saved; so that has not 'changed'.

So why would the law have 'changed'? Would it not be still doing what it is intended to do, but rather looking to it as a sign of the covenant as they did, we just look to it as the original meaning it was set forth for?

I think we do the proverbial "throwing the baby out with the bath water" thing when we contemplate the "old" covenant and the "new" covenant. When in reality the passage you provided states that the "baby" is still around and has not been thrown out.

But yes, we could get side tracked real easy on this , but in a way I think it has to be talked about to a certain degree. And that degree comes because we consider grace a lot of the times as being the 'exchange' of the law. And when we do not, like you and I believe, we then consider grace to be the same effectual working power of God throughout all time in the lives of His Children.

So if grace has not changed, then why would we determine the law has changed? But here is the kicker; when we DO consider the law as having changed, then that would have to dictate that grace has changed also. Because we know for a fact that grace and the law are intrinsically linked together. If one changes it has to change the other.

And the only way to say that they are not linked together would be to say that it either did not exist in the OT, or to say that it was "different" back then.

 

[Theofilus]

And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name. (Ex. 33:17 KJV)​

God said this, not only after giving the law, but shortly after the incident with the golden calf. And it wasn't only to Moses or a select few that God showed grace.

For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly. (Ps. 84:11 KJV)​

 

[Nathan]

And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name. (Ex. 33:17 KJV)​

God said this, not only after giving the law, but shortly after the incident with the golden calf. And it wasn't only to Moses or a select few that God showed grace.

For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly. (Ps. 84:11 KJV)​

See, I find this interesting Theo. There seems to be a condition to this grace here in Psalms. But its not as in they had to "do" something, but rather in what they "are". Does this Psalm contradict the grace spoken of in the NT?

I think that is where we could gather the information about its difference. What and how was "grace" applied in the OT verses the NT?

 

[handy]

I do think both grace and law have changed...

Grace is God's mercy, His favor to us. And, He has changed how He extends His favor to us in the simple matter that, prior to Christ's death on the cross, His Spirit would only come upon certain people, sometimes just for certain times. Certain prophets, true prophets, had the Spirit as they were prophesying, certain priests did, the kings, some of them, not all. I'm sure there were times when God's Holy Spirit would come upon certain folks and then leave...it was truly different than today, when His Spirit has be poured out upon the church and all who believe has the Spirit.

This isn't to say that only those who had God's Spirit upon them received mercy or grace from God...but generally when those who did receive mercy or grace from God experienced said grace and mercy, it was either because God's Spirit had come to them, or God sent one who had His Spirit to them.

Naturally, this isn't including God's general mercy to the world which is shown through His pouring rain upon the righteous and unrighteous alike.

The law too, has changed. If we say that the law hasn't changed, we then must be like those who say that we cannot eat pork chops or lizard gizzards. But, we know from the New Testament that we can.

Actually the law changed several times, as Reba pointed out with her "law" in quotations. The law that those from Adam through Noah knew was different than the law from Noah through Abraham and from Abraham through Moses...

I'm not referring to dispensationalism here, because I don't believe that men have achieved salvation any differently than by having faith in God through His grace. But, nonetheless, we do see an....unfolding, if you will...of God's overall plan.

For instance, looking at the law, we see that at first no animals were given as food. We see no one eating animal flesh, not even other animals. Then, after the flood, God gave the animals to be eaten. ALL animals. Genesis 9:3 states "Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you, as I gave the green plant."

Then comes the Law of Moses which contained many stringent dietary restrictions....Then along comes Paul who tells us that things like circumcision and dietary laws no longer apply.

So, what is the "baby" here? That's probably the true question at the heart of this, what exactly is the "baby"?

I think that the "baby" can best be summed up by Micah 6:8 "He has shown you, O man, what is good; and what the Lord requires of you, but to do justice, to love goodness and to walk humbly with your God?"

And we certainly cannot forget Matthew 22:36-40, "Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’This is the first and greatest commandment.And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.â€

What is justice? What is goodness (also kindness, faithfulness, the Hebrew word encompasses all these thoughts) and to walk humbly? What is loving God with all our very being and how do we "love our neighbor as ourselves?"

Well, that is what God's Spirit "writes" upon our hearts now, is it not?

 

[Elijah674]

I do think both grace and law have changed...

Grace is God's mercy, His favor to us. And, He has changed how He extends His favor to us in the simple matter that, prior to Christ's death on the cross, His Spirit would only come upon certain people, sometimes just for certain times. Certain prophets, true prophets, had the Spirit as they were prophesying, certain priests did, the kings, some of them, not all. I'm sure there were times when God's Holy Spirit would come upon certain folks and then leave...it was truly different than today, when His Spirit has be poured out upon the church and all who believe has the Spirit.

This isn't to say that only those who had God's Spirit upon them received mercy or grace from God...but generally when those who did receive mercy or grace from God experienced said grace and mercy, it was either because God's Spirit had come to them, or God sent one who had His Spirit to them.

Naturally, this isn't including God's general mercy to the world which is shown through His pouring rain upon the righteous and unrighteous alike.

The law too, has changed. If we say that the law hasn't changed, we then must be like those who say that we cannot eat pork chops or lizard gizzards. But, we know from the New Testament that we can.

Actually the law changed several times, as Reba pointed out with her "law" in quotations. The law that those from Adam through Noah knew was different than the law from Noah through Abraham and from Abraham through Moses...

I'm not referring to dispensationalism here, because I don't believe that men have achieved salvation any differently than by having faith in God through His grace. But, nonetheless, we do see an....unfolding, if you will...of God's overall plan.

For instance, looking at the law, we see that at first no animals were given as food. We see no one eating animal flesh, not even other animals. Then, after the flood, God gave the animals to be eaten. ALL animals. Genesis 9:3 states "Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I give all to you, as I gave the green plant."

Then comes the Law of Moses which contained many stringent dietary restrictions....Then along comes Paul who tells us that things like circumcision and dietary laws no longer apply.

So, what is the "baby" here? That's probably the true question at the heart of this, what exactly is the "baby"?

I think that the "baby" can best be summed up by Micah 6:8 "He has shown you, O man, what is good; and what the Lord requires of you, but to do justice, to love goodness and to walk humbly with your God?"

And we certainly cannot forget Matthew 22:36-40, "Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’This is the first and greatest commandment.And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.â€

What is justice? What is goodness (also kindness, faithfulness, the Hebrew word encompasses all these thoughts) and to walk humbly? What is loving God with all our very being and how do we "love our neighbor as ourselves?"

Well, that is what God's Spirit "writes" upon our hearts now, is it not?

Nothing posted by us will change the Eternal Word of God, huh! Rev. 14:6 + Heb. 13:20 Rev. 22:18-19

--Elijah

 

[Nathan]

Now your starting to post like me handy... Hard isn't it? When one thing is tied to another, and then yet another...its hard to pick a place to leave off.

I think you would be correct in your statement to say that both grace and law have changed. Because I personally cannot see how one would change without the other changing also.

But I find something interesting in your post. Notice what you said about the difference in the Spirit being on "one" person verses like it is now where He is in all who believe. Then look at the correlation of the law. It was given to "one" people, and even deeper than that, only "one" person fulfilled it to the degree it was established. But now consider what the "new" covenant declares. We "all" have the law on our hearts, and we all have the Spirit.

I think we need to discern what "law" we are speaking of when we declare the law has changed. Because even though grace has changed, it has only changed one form, and that is how it is applied. So the necessity that the two are linked together would dictate that the law has changed in the same fashion. And does this line up with the context of the Bible as a whole? I think so.

I think what we see is that from the beginning onward we see the "plan" of God unfolding, or unrolling like a scroll. Each turn of the handle reveals something more. So it could look like a change, but in the essence it is not a change but a deeper understanding of the meaning.

I think just like the law has been lumped together in one "thing" and not rightfully given the separation it requires between the ordinances of Moses and the testimony of God; so too grace has been lumped together with outward manifestation of it, the presence of God and the work He does in our life. Think that over for a moment.

There was the "Law" of God. It contained within it all the rules, regulations, ordinances, testimonies; precepts. There was the outward doing and the inward obeying that was present. It was, at that time, a "outward to inward" direction. This fulfilled a purpose by determining that all mankind was unable to "do this".

Then there was the "Grace" of God. It was an spiritual manifestation of God's presence. A spiritual presence of God. At that time, it was present for those who came to the conclusion that they could not "save" themselves from the flesh side. It was seen in the promise of a Messiah.

Now go forward in the 'plan'. Christ came in the flesh. What happened to the "law"? It was stripped from the flesh. What happened to "grace"? It inhabited the flesh. But wait, the law was stripped from the flesh, the "fleshly" power to do it, and then placed into the heart.

So that would dictate that grace also underwent a transformation? Well yes, it took on a 'visual'(physical) appearance. Christ was full of truth and grace. So now, from a 'fleshly' perspective, grace is in full view, whereas before it was just spiritually discerned. That is why most people view it as they do today, why it is held in such high regard. In fact, if you contemplate it, people nowadays hold grace up just like the pharisees held the law up in their time. And the opposite is true, just like most shun the truth of the testimony of God now, they shunned the truth of grace back then. Its all on how its viewed; fleshly or spiritually.

But wait, does that mean that it has no spiritual significance now? Absolutely not! It does, and we see it when the now spiritually predominant 'law' written on our hearts is "broken". Grace flows out of a manifested form to the Spiritual form. But think on that for a moment. If grace is still the same grace, just different forms...then the law is still the law, just in different forms.

The law now, written on our hearts, is spiritual in nature. But, just like grace is seen when the spiritual side starts to "slide"(sin), the law is seen when the fleshly side starts to "slide"(sin).

See there is a direct relationship between them. But we think of them being "opposed" to each other because in all reality they are on "opposite" sides. Its like having a card that is red on one side and white on the other. When you "flip" it, the colors remain, but they are viewed from a different angle. But if you just told a person "hey I have a card that has red and white on it" they might not understand the relationship of the colors to the card. It would only be by the process of going from one side to the other that they would understand what you meant.

And what did they look forward too back in the OT? What was the first thing Jesus did when He 'finished' the work and died? He went and showed them the other side of the card.

Make sense? Grace is still the same grace just in different form, but not function. The law is still the law just in different form, but not function.

The "baby"? I think its the Testimony of the Living God. The declaration of who He is. Throw the law out and you can easily throw His testimony out. Throw grace out and you can easily throw His testimony out. You quote one passage, but we also have other passages that state the same.

Ecc 12:13 The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man.

So which one is right? Both of course! It just depends on which side of the card your looking at...

 

[mcgyver]

I really do not like to start too many threads at one time without wrapping up the others. But I had this thought cross my mind this afternoon and found it a quite interesting topic of discussion.

Was there "grace" in the OT, or is it just a "new" covenant thing?

The reason I ask is because we always claim "grace not law" as if grace replaced the law. Anyone else ever had this thought?

So many threads...so little time...

Here's a thought...not saying I'm right, but something to ponder.

Now we know that there is a difference between mercy and grace...in fact Heb. 4:16 says: Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

The scripture also tells us:For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. (John 1:17)

Now then, if we accept the following (short) definitions: JUSTICE: Getting exactly what we deserve, MERCY: Not getting what we deserve, GRACE: Getting what we don't deserve; then...

Is it not entirely possible that what we see in the OT under the Mosaic covenant is an extension of Mercy as opposed to grace?

For example, in the great faith chapter of Heb. 11, these OT saints were counted righteous by their faith...but yet until Christ they were not in Heaven, but rather in the place known as "Abraham's Bosom" or "Paradise"....

Is it not possible then that what they experienced through their faith was God's mercy (not getting what they deserved, for they also had sinned IAW Rom. 3:23)...and that they experienced Grace (getting what they didn't deserve...Heaven...) in the same was as we all, by the life, death, and resurrection of Christ?

What sayest thou?

 

[Hawkins]

Again, I do think that you are confusing yourself by introducing the pre-destination concept which actually no humans can truly understand.

God has Grace all the times. Yet regarding to salvation, the term 'grace' has a stricter meaning in contrary to Law. God applies Law to govern freewills such as humans and angels. We need to pass the final judgment by Law in order to return to Heaven. However, if we can enter Heaven but without passing the judgment by Law, then we are said to be saved by His Grace. The Second Covenant is such a Grace that we only need to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved, instead of passing the judgment by Law.

 

[Nathan]

So many threads...so little time...

Here's a thought...not saying I'm right, but something to ponder.

Now we know that there is a difference between mercy and grace...in fact Heb. 4:16 says: Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

The scripture also tells us:For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. (John 1:17)

Now then, if we accept the following (short) definitions: JUSTICE: Getting exactly what we deserve, MERCY: Not getting what we deserve, GRACE: Getting what we don't deserve; then...

Is it not entirely possible that what we see in the OT under the Mosaic covenant is an extension of Mercy as opposed to grace?

For example, in the great faith chapter of Heb. 11, these OT saints were counted righteous by their faith...but yet until Christ they were not in Heaven, but rather in the place known as "Abraham's Bosom" or "Paradise"....

Is it not possible then that what they experienced through their faith was God's mercy (not getting what they deserved, for they also had sinned IAW Rom. 3:23)...and that they experienced Grace (getting what they didn't deserve...Heaven...) in the same was as we all, by the life, death, and resurrection of Christ?

What sayest thou?

Nice. Thanks for jumping on in here. I believe your right about there being a definitive difference between grace and mercy. And the "short" definitions are the ones I have also used, although we both know they go deeper.

However, I still believe grace to have been the same thing there is back then as there is now. In other words, most of us will agree that grace through faith is what people from all generations have been saved.

But, mercy does seem to play a more "pronounced" role. Not that it does not also have a role in our lives now, but it is more pronounced. We see this in extreme "detail" with the ark of testimony.

Notice something interesting about this real quick. When the Lord is speaking to Moses about the ark, He references it as the ark of testimony and it is also when the mercy seat is talked about. Once we leave the instruction of the Lord to Moses about the ark, it transforms into the ark of the covenant, ark of the Lord, and the ark of God. Interesting anyways.

I think what you are pointing out is quite possible. They experienced mercy through the law, but were still saved by grace. But I also think that we are the same way here and now. The law convicts us of sin, the same way it did them. However, we live in the 'fullness' of grace, and they were simply kept guarded for that grace through the law. They received it, but it was something they looked forward too.

I think you hit the nail when you say that they experienced it the same way as we all do.

So lets contemplate this for a minute shall we? They were kept "under" the law, a guardian, until the "fullness" of grace was manifested to all(which it was to them who had even died because Christ went there first and preached to them). Now, we automatically say that the law is "erased" because it has been "fulfilled" right? But, we understand that the law was not set for them to "fulfill" but rather to keep them 'guarded' until the one who would fulfill, or rather the one the LAW would TESTIFY as the only one who could fulfill the entirety of it.

So, the One who was capable of fulfilling the law, did so, and showed Himself to be the One of truth and grace. In effect, when truth and grace are combined they show mercy. Keep that in mind. Now, we are on the 'flip-side' of the two sided card. We are not under the guardian, but rather under grace. But what happened to the law? Well, it still has the same function that it did back then, just not the same role.

What we see is the roles of grace and the law switching place. Roles mind you, not function. Grace still saves, the law still testifies. Those two functions have not changed.

So in order to understand the role of the law in the life of the believer, we have to look at what grace did for them back then. And what was it? It kept their focus on the coming Messiah. Ahh....interesting. Are there any brains out there churning right now?

 

[Nathan]

Again, I do think that you are confusing yourself by introducing the pre-destination concept which actually no humans can truly understand.

God has Grace all the times. Yet regarding to salvation, the term 'grace' has a stricter meaning in contrary to Law. God applies Law to govern freewills such as humans and angels. We need to pass the final judgment by Law in order to return to Heaven. However, if we can enter Heaven but without passing the judgment by Law, then we are said to be saved by His Grace. The Second Covenant is such a Grace that we only need to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved, instead of passing the judgment by Law.

Well its true that this goes into pre-destination, but thats not the focus of it. My thoughts go more to the idea that some think the grace we have now is "different" than it was back then. And I believe its true that its "different" but what is the difference.

I think you indicate the difference within the context of what the Law is. A governing of the freewill, or I would say more precisely, a governing of the flesh. And now, we have had grace "manifested" in the flesh, but not only that it was manifested in the Spirit also. So when we walk in the spirit, grace is there guiding us, but the moment we step away the law takes charge against us. And the contrast was applicable to them.

The law guided them, and when they stepped away from it grace was there to bring them back.

The "commonality" of them both is that in both ways we can "push" past both the law and grace, presumptuously.

Back then when they started to stray from God's law, God's grace would 'woo' them back. If they pushed past it then they would stray grievously into sinful desire.

And here and now, when we start to stray from God's grace, God's law stands as a 'testimony' that we are straying away from Him. If we push past it we stray into grievous sinful desire.

The function of both are still there, but the roles have reversed. What are the functions?

Grace is for Salvation

Law is for Testimony

 

[Elijah674]

Predestination of the Godhead is believed by me. In Eternity They knew what Their created would do, & what would be done by Their total creation. And we & they all have free will with a BRAIN!;) (+angels & other 'worlds')

OK: What They knew was not what we know! Salvation by us comes by CONDITIONAL OBEDIENT WORKING FAITH OF OBEDIENCE! (All Grace is our free choice to NEED & USE! Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9 yet, again it is up to our free choice to do so! Rom. 8:1 has a verse 14!)

One reason that mankind was created was to prove that Lucifer who rebelled against the Royal LAW OF THE UNIVERSE did so by free choice, Isa. 42:21 (which free choice we all have) and that there was NO FAULT with the Eternal Law of God, or with [Their Perfect creation] when created. We do understand that perfect.. as with FREEDOM as in Heb. 5 means that ALL OF THESE MUST MATURE from babes too Mature Perfection!

So They (BOTH Godhead & mankind) are on a type of trial before the Universe proving this Truth which is to be FOREVER Settled shortly! And then all sin & sinners will be Blotted from the Universe! ETERNALLY. Nah. 1:9 & Obad. 1:16. And take note of Obad. there, that these.. 'have drunk upon upon my holy mountain' + 'so shall all the heathen'. (the OSAS ex/ones with the heathen)

The bottom/line Truth is seen in Isa. 5:4! There is NOTHING 'MORE' that They could do more than what They HAVE DONE to have 'us' to Choose Eternal Life! The Godhead has tried every conceivable way [[IN LOVE]] to SAVE Mankind! See Jude 1:22-23! Even read on in Isa. 5 for the Virgin Vineyard from verse 5 on for what They did do & will again do 'also' for the last result! (and us in Matt. 24:21's ending!)

THINK OF THE 120 years of Gen. 6:3 & the Rev. 17:1-5 ones? And the free will ones theirself that choose their own fate. But, you can be sure that GRACE WAS [[ETERNALLY OFFERED!]] (from Lucifer's rebellion on, even read Gen. 4:7 to Cain) Rev. 14:6


So the Universe will have this COMPLETE RECORDED TESTIMONY IN ETERNITY to find that the Godhead is JUST in the Execution of all evil. All tears will be wiped way finding that the Godhead just flat out could do NO MORE! Even with Christ/God having the Crucifixion SCARES for a reminder of what freewill freedom Lovingly allowed to happen. How would one know in the universe, for sure otherwise?? Eccl. 12:13-14

--Elijah

 

[handy]

I think you indicate the difference within the context of what the Law is. A governing of the freewill, or I would say more precisely, a governing of the flesh. And now, we have had grace "manifested" in the flesh, but not only that it was manifested in the Spirit also. So when we walk in the spirit, grace is there guiding us, but the moment we step away the law takes charge against us. And the contrast was applicable to them.

The law guided them, and when they stepped away from it grace was there to bring them back.

The "commonality" of them both is that in both ways we can "push" past both the law and grace, presumptuously.

Back then when they started to stray from God's law, God's grace would 'woo' them back. If they pushed past it then they would stray grievously into sinful desire.

And here and now, when we start to stray from God's grace, God's law stands as a 'testimony' that we are straying away from Him. If we push past it we stray into grievous sinful desire.

The function of both are still there, but the roles have reversed. What are the functions?

Grace is for Salvation

Law is for Testimony

Very good insight in this, Nathan!

When I have more time, (if that ever happens) it would be interesting to discuss the differences between the Law as it was under the covenant with Moses and the eternal covenant. I think a lot of misconception about Law/Grace comes from not recognizing that the Law of Moses was never an eternal covenant, but there is an eternal covenant, and it is under this covenant that grace/law works the way I understand you are referring to.

 

[GracenMercy]

There are three principal characteristics of Divine grace. First, it is eternal. Grace was planned before it was exercised, purposed before it was imparted: "Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began" (2 Tim. 1:9). Second, it is free, for none did ever purchase it: "Being justified freely by His grace" (Rom. 3:24). Third, it is sovereign, because God exercises it toward and bestows it upon whom He pleases: "Even so might grace reign" (Rom. 5:21). If grace "reigns" then is it on the throne, and the occupant of the throne is sovereign. Hence "the throne of grace" (Heb. 4:16).



http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Attributes/attrib_13.htm

 

[Elijah674]

So is it not right to say that grace has been given to mankind since the beginning ALL the way through till now?

And so would it not be right to say that grace has been the 'way' humans have been saved since the beginning ALL the way through till now?

You have question marks on your post questions. So 'i' will be bold;) and say yes as I see it, and yes, Grace did that, yet, it aided more than just humans!

--Elijah

 

[Elijah674]

How far back did Eternal Grace extend into time? 'ETERNAL huh! Well, there was never a time that the Eternal Grace (Rev. 14:6) was not there when needed. The Ark with the Eternal Covenant inside of it was Nothing New either! (Rev. 11:19) And the Mercy Seat over the Ark's Eternal Law Represented this Grace extending throughout ETERNITY, as was Christ/God before He became the Planed Son of God!

Did God give us any information as to when this all was needed? You be the judge!
They say....

Eccl. 1
[9] The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is [no new thing under the sun].
[10] Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.

And sure, if there ever were something new, God told us of thesefew issues of non/salvation importance such as the 'rainbow in the sky' & Nah.. 1:9 that 'sin will never arise a second time,' so as to make it easier for us!
But we need a second time 'documentation' on this from God!

Eccl. 3
[14] I know that, whatsoever God doeth, (or sayeth! Rev. 22:18-19) it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
[15] That which [hath been is now;[ and that [which is to be hath already been]; and God requireth that which is past.
(so pick you starting point & test God to see if He makes any mistake! my silly remark!)

Don't forget, we want God telling us when the Eternal Gospel of Christ Startedand the Godheads Eternal GRACE!,

And this is the Inspiration duplicated! Lets see what it is saying the same thing Twice means?

Gen. 41
[32] And for that the dream was doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing [is established by God,] and God will shortly bring it to pass.


OK: And now this parable is to give us some insight for when 'Eternal' GRACE WAS FIRST 'NEEDED'!
Matt.25

[1] Then shall the '[kingdom of heaven]' be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
[2] And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
[3] They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: ....

We see a parable of %50 being wise & %50 being Foolish. (yet all had some oil in their lamps, and all were Virgins in belief...Doctrine!) These were ALL SLEEPING Virgins 'likened to the Kingdom' of Heaven's Rebellion! One wonders how Long Christ bore with His Loving Creation of angels before their Sin against the Holy Ghost was reached? And the results of the ones who were won back before the door of probation was 'closed'?? (Matt. 25:10) Unless you think that Christ did not have any won back? And GRACE? Eternal Grace! Surely Christ's Eternal Plan could be CLAIMED BY FAITH to these ones as well! Lets see if there are a different number from the 50 percent likening to the Kingdom of heaven elsewhere??

Rev. 12
[4] And his tail drew [the third part] of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
......
[7] And there was war in heaven: 'Michael and [his angels'] fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and [his] angels,
[8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
[9] And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

(and catch the name's used throughout the Word of God fot the devil!)

OK: There was at the start %50 or 1/2 in rebellion, & here were see that there are 1/3 who filled up their cup of rebellion, & the door of their probation was maturely closed! There probably is a history repeat of the Holy Spirits Striving as the 120 year pre/flood & Rev. 17:1-5 ones as well here?

But the point is that from 1/2 at the start to the 1/3 at the close of their probation found just a very small 'Remnant' number reclaimed [by GRACE + FAITH IN Christ's future Sacrifice!]
And Heb. 11:13 finds that these ALL DIED IN THE FAITH. O.T. ones only? Eccl. 1:9-18 & Eccl. 3:15 says otherwise!
And yes, I know that God say's there is a Heb. 6:3 verse, huh!

--Elijah

 

[Who Says]

The "law" was not yet when Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord!

Abel, Seth, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joeseph all found grace.

Job found grace.

The prophets all found grace.

David found grace.

There was not one single person who ever had faith that God did not impute righteousness based upon Christ's ransom backward to them based upon their faith.

Righteousness can only be imputed on the basis of Christ's ransom to cover our sin.

Romans 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 ¶Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,


After the long list of witnesses Paul says, Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

That is all grace.

 

[Elijah674]

Abel, Seth, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joeseph all found grace.

Job found grace.

The prophets all found grace.

David found grace.

There was not one single person who ever had faith that God did not impute righteousness based upon Christ's ransom backward to them based upon their faith.

Righteousness can only be imputed on the basis of Christ's ransom to cover our sin.

Romans 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 ¶Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,


After the long list of witnesses Paul says, Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

That is all grace.

Very good Post!
So you agree that both Grace is Eternal + the Offering CHRIST/GOD! (???)

And because GRACE is so, then from God's 1st creation on, there could not be any possibility of sin without Their Eternal Heb. 13:20 Covenant Law being in existance as well as the Plan of Christ becoming Son/God of the Godhead, huh! That even proves FORUM, that ALL OF THE LORDS CREATION HAS FREE WILL! (Freedom of Choice Gen. 3:22 'to know good & evil')

But that question matter's little in the big picture of what 'we' teach or believe, because God also Documents that in Inspiration! Of 1 John 3...

[3] And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (Phil. 4:13 + that Grace WORD of 2 Cor. 12:9!;))

[4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

--Elijah

 

[warhorse]

I really do not like to start too many threads at one time without wrapping up the others. But I had this thought cross my mind this afternoon and found it a quite interesting topic of discussion.

Was there "grace" in the OT, or is it just a "new" covenant thing?

The reason I ask is because we always claim "grace not law" as if grace replaced the law. Anyone else ever had this thought?

Yes, God has displayed Grace from the very begining.
He could have left Adam in his sin. He could have just destroyed him and did a do over. We wiped out the unfaithful Jews at least a dozen times but still preserved the faithful few. God sent prophets with warnings before all his destructive episodes. God has displayed a Great deal of grace all though history.

 

[Elijah674]

Hi, while I do agree with the post & your below added remarks of T.M., it still leaves much unsaid about the O.T. Christ/God & some of the reasons for LOVING punishments by Him. (I did highlite in red a couple 'strong' words for how others might 'falsely' see our unchanging Loving Christ/God in the OT?)

Heb. 12:4-8 finds us ALL with the Lords Chastiments! (ibid 6) Then He qualifies it even with,.. IF we are 'Partakers!' (ibid 8)

SO: Jude finds when verse 22 of 'compassion' fails A God of LOVE MUST do verse 23 with that of 'fear', and this IS His 'LOVING' last results that are given to get us all saved who will be! (read Isa. 5)

And that is seen in Matt. 24:21's LAST OPPORTUNITY of Warning of Present Day 'LOVING' Truth!

--Elijah


Yes, God has displayed Grace from the very begining.
He could have left Adam in his sin. He could have just destroyed him and did a do over. We wiped out the unfaithful Jews at least a dozen times but still preserved the faithful few. God sent prophets with warnings before all his destructive episodes. God has displayed a Great deal of grace all though history.
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Sinners are supposed to sin, thats what they do, it is for the apathy of the saints, that the nations are crushed. Pastor Tony Evans

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