Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Bible Study Hail Mary full of grace?

Jeff Mills

Member
Luke 1:26-30 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, (27) To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. (28) And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. (29) And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. (30) And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.


Any modern newspaper editor would look at his opening salvo and say, "What a wonderful opening paragraph for this story!" Luke gives the who, what, where, and when right away, and gets to the why in short order. A complex scene is set out in order in just a few words.

Former Catholics will recognize verse 28 from the recitation of the rosary, "Hail, Mary, full of grace," taken from Jerome's Latin Vulgate, but the Greek does not read anything like that. Nor is there any authority to pray this to her. What the angel, probably Gabriel, really says to her is, "Rejoice, Mary, because you have found favor with God." She is so highly favored that the Lord blesses her, among all women on earth at the time, to be chosen for the honor of bearing and raising His Son.

Luke is actually suggesting, not that Mary should be adored for her favor with God, but that God should receive glory and adoration for bestowing such a blessing on her. He is the source of her favor; He gives it by grace to her, not because she was somehow qualified for it. She must have been a pretty good person, but she was not converted at the time. She was an ordinary Jewess of the line of David, though perhaps specially prepared for this blessing. Nevertheless, God displays His graciousness, not Mary's.

Most commentaries guess that she was about fourteen years old at the time, as that was the age when women commonly married then. Perhaps she was a little older. Tradition says that Joseph himself was an older man and might have desired a slightly older wife than was normal.

Verse 29 states that she was perplexed, agitated, or disturbed by what the angel said to her. She probably had no idea what to think, but to her credit, she did not become flighty or melt into a quivering mass. The Scriptures bring out that Mary was a serious thinker. In Luke 2:51, the evangelist tells us that she "kept all these things [concerning Jesus] in her heart," suggesting that she was patient, thoughtful, and wise. She did not jump to conclusions but let matters play out.
 
Jeff
Great stuff. Perhaps you can tell our readers why Mary Needed a saviour if she was sinless... :wink:
 
So then Christ sinned? Was he not man? That verse sounds to me like a generalization. Kind of like saying: All have arms and legs. Well...yes all do have arms and legs. But...there are those who don't.

Oh..and the Greek says: Kecharitomene. This word is a perfect passive participle of charitoo (to fill or endow with grace). Since it is in perfect tense, it implies a grace that has been with her and will continue in the future.
 
St. Ambrose said:
Oh..and the Greek says: Kecharitomene. This word is a perfect passive participle of charitoo (to fill or endow with grace). Since it is in perfect tense, it implies a grace that has been with her and will continue in the future.

Hi
Can you please provide the book, chapter and verse so that we may research this....Thanks
 
jgredline said:
Hi
Can you please provide the book, chapter and verse so that we may research this....Thanks

Wouldn't it be the same book, chapter, and verse that they have been talking about this whole time?
 
WMD said:
Wouldn't it be the same book, chapter, and verse that they have been talking about this whole time?

You would think? but I want to be sure...In fact I would appreciate it, if the scripture was posted in Greek....Yes I read Greek...I want to know what manuscripts St. Ambrose is basing his info off, because my Greek NT 1550 TR says something different...
 
St. Ambrose said:
I'm jealous..... :)

Luke 1:28: και εισελθων ο αγγελος προς αυτην ειπεν χαιρε κεχαριτωμενη ο κυριος μετα σου ευλογημενη συ εν γυναιξιν

Here is a link explaining it's usage:

http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/~fisher/ ... 03012807#h

Well, I humbly disagree with you....The actual text reads
Luke 1:28

και εισελθων ο αγγελος προς αυτην ειπεν χαιρε κεχαριτωμενη ο κυριος μετα σου ευλογημενη συ εν γυναιξιν 1550TR


and coming the angel to her said be excedenly glad favored with blessings
the Lord with you blessed are you among women


Now this is the way ''It sounds to me''...The symantics are very similar to spanish....

Now the Greek word that Luke used here κεχαριτωμενη
Looking at my Greek dictionaries I don't see how this word and verse can lend support to those who say mary was sinless.
 
Now the Greek word that Luke used here κεχαριτωμενη
Looking at my Greek dictionaries I don't see how this word and verse can lend support to those who say mary was sinless.

Could you tell me from your persepective what this word states? I mean, I know you gave me your translation, but could you break down the word.

Here is how I understand it.

Kecharitomene is the perfect participle of charitoo (to fill or endow with grace). Since it is in the perfect tense this would indicate that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. Thus grace is not a product of the visit, but rather, a characteristic of Mary.


Thanks for taking the time to look into this.
 
St. Ambrose said:
So then Christ sinned? Was he not man? That verse sounds to me like a generalization. Kind of like saying: All have arms and legs. Well...yes all do have arms and legs. But...there are those who don't.

Oh..and the Greek says: Kecharitomene. This word is a perfect passive participle of charitoo (to fill or endow with grace). Since it is in perfect tense, it implies a grace that has been with her and will continue in the future.

Can you answer my question, instead of answering it with a question please. Why did Mary take her sin offering to the temple?

Jesus was God and man on earth so of course he was sinless. He was tempted like any other man but did not sin.
 
St. Ambrose said:
Could you tell me from your persepective what this word states? I mean, I know you gave me your translation, but could you break down the word.

Here is how I understand it.

Kecharitomene is the perfect participle of charitoo (to fill or endow with grace). Since it is in the perfect tense this would indicate that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present. Thus grace is not a product of the visit, but rather, a characteristic of Mary.


Thanks for taking the time to look into this.

Ok, lets take a closer look at the grammar behind this verse....

και εισελθων ο αγγελος προς αυτην ειπεν χαιρε κεχαριτωμενη ο κυριος μετα σου ευλογημενη συ εν γυναιξιν 1550TR


και εισελθων ο αγγελος προς αυτην ειπεν (χαιρε here we have the Verb ''chairo''...It is used in the present tense..which is now past tense)... (κεχαριτωμενη here we have another verb charitoo that preceeds the definate article ὁ)....and thus the statement moves forward.... ο κυριος μετα σου ευλογημενη συ εν γυναιξιν 1550TR

Now this is a short and incomplete summary as I am late for the movies, but as soon as I am baack I will continue.

OK, I am back went to watch 300 awsome movie, I wish they would have left the sex scenes out of it. It was pretty accurate to historical accounts...

Anyway AS i pondered this verse through out the afternoon and reading the text in Greek as it is written, I can see what you are saying, all ''BUT'' this part...
''but with continuing effects in the present. Thus grace is not a product of the visit, but rather, a characteristic of Mary''.
I just don't see it in the text and the grammar does not support it either....No dought Mary was blessed among women for she gave birth to our messiah the Lord Jesus Christ, but I do not see how this verse lends support that mary was sinless.....

two more points if I may...
..the angel did not say that she was ''full of grace, but that she was favored among women...
...the angel never worshiped mary nor did the angel pray to her.....

So I just don't see what ever that other writer sees...Its simply not there...
 
Can you answer my question, instead of answering it with a question please. Why did Mary take her sin offering to the temple?

Jesus was God and man on earth so of course he was sinless. He was tempted like any other man but did not sin.

I cannot put it better than this:

To the contrary, however, it is asserted that the Virgin Mary again admitted that She was a sinner when She presented herself in the Temple for purification in accordance with the Law of Moses: "she shall take two turtledoves or two pigeons, one for a burnt offering and the other for a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement on her behalf, and she shall be clean'" (Lev. 12, 8). The Virgin Mary observed this Law not because She believed Herself to be defiled by giving birth to Christ, but to give an example of humility and obedience by fulfilling all outward observances. For the Virgin Mary was not subject to this particular law by virtue of what God Himself had laid down in prefacing it: "If a woman having received seed shall bear a man child, she shall be unclean seven days..." (v. 2 [Douai]). The conception and birth of Christ was not due to the reception of male seed but rather to the power of the Holy Spirit. In no way can it be claimed that in conceiving, bearing and delivering Christ the Virgin Mary was made "unclean." In fact, the opposite would have occurred, that is, She would have received an augmentation of grace.
 
the angel did not say that she was ''full of grace, but that she was favored among women...

Where is the word 'woman' in the text?
Is not the word used here 'charitoo' (to fill/endow with grace)?

...the angel never worshiped mary

Then Gabriel and I have something in common :)

nor did the angel pray to her.....

What would be the purpose?

Though, I would challenge you to really meditate on this verse. All throughout sacred Scripture angels are held to high-esteem and greeted with honor. Even John, in a rash and mistaken action, began to worhip an angel! But yet... for the first, last, and only time...an Angel greeted a mortal human being with a salutation of honor! Hail! Why? Because she was no ordinary woman.

May I ask you some questions?

How could the Holy Spirit 'overshadow' or 'come upon' a sinful woman? How could Jesus Christ, the God of the universe, dwell in a sinful woman? I mean, take a look at His requirements for a tabernacle! He required the best for His dwelling place. Would He have tolerated dirt, dust, grime, or any natural filth on His tabernacle? I would think not. How then could be okay with the ultimate filth? Sin.
 
Back
Top