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Headcoverings

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1 Corinthians 11

1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?
14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

Should women where coverings in church, or everyday? I highligted one verse in this passage that has always interested me. Does anyone have an idea what it could mean? And, if headcoverings are cultural what difference does it make to the angels...and does it still make a difference?

The Lord bless all of you
 
Should women where coverings in church, or everyday? I highligted one verse in this passage that has always interested me. Does anyone have an idea what it could mean? And, if headcoverings are cultural what difference does it make to the angels...and does it still make a difference?
Click to expand...

I've actually heard an interpretation of that in the context of keeping within the bounds of what is natural. Just like Paul said it is disgraceful for a man to have long hair, it is believed by some that what he is talking about here for women is the opposite idea: that they should have a beautiful head of hair (headcovering) and not shave their heads (as Pagan women did sometimes in honor of their gods - or when they mourned for someone). So it could simply be a euphemism for hair. That interpretation makes far more sense, rather than interpreting it as a legalistic covering as with a shawl.

God Bless,

~Josh
 
Josh, I have heard that too...about it referring to the hair. The thing is, when you do a word study, it truly is saying hair, and veil, and the passage seems to make a distinction (see verse 6). Do you believe that women should have long hair, or that this Scripture would indicate a command for that?

When you say, "keeping in bounds with what is natural" are you speaking to the Genesis verses about the Sons of God seeing the daughters of men...that these were angels committing unnatural acts, and that this may be some sort of covering for women for that reason? I am not sure what you mean, but I have heard the theory I just mentioned before, and was wondering if that's to what you were referring.

The other thing I have heard, is so that women stay protected...under their heads (husband and God) so that the angels do not have to protect them when they step out from that order. That women are more apt to be deceived...as Eve was...when they take the headship role. So, the veil is to remind them to stay within the order that God as placed them as the weaker vessels.

I am still wondering, though, if many believe it is cultural...why would God mention the angels, and wouldn't the reason (whatever it is) still apply? I just wonder if we are disobeying something in the Word because we have trusted tradition and commentary.

Thanks for your response, and the Lord bless you.
 
The passage that is referred to is in reference to OBEDIENCE. And YES lovely, from ALL indication it is STATING that women SHOULD wear SOME SORT of COVERING when IN The Church, (gathering in the name of Christ). For ONE reason and ONE reason ONLY. That becomes OBVIOUS when one reads the verses concerining the issue.

MEC
 
When you say, "keeping in bounds with what is natural" are you speaking to the Genesis verses about the Sons of God seeing the daughters of men...that these were angels committing unnatural acts, and that this may be some sort of covering for women for that reason? I am not sure what you mean, but I have heard the theory I just mentioned before, and was wondering if that's to what you were referring.
Click to expand...

No I meant it more broadly. Naturally women have long hair and men have short hair. Both are to respect that natural order which God ordained. Atleast I think it is saying that women should have some form of hair on their head. I won't be legalistic to say it can only be long, but the idea I believe IMO is that they are not to shave their head.

The reason this is done for the angels, I think, is to display to them personal integrity by honoring God in what you do, thus it is a testimony to the angels. The angels also marvel at other things such as our salvation, it is an amazing thing to them. We have heavenly spectators who look on us with awe at what Christ has done and is doing in us and how God is amassing a holy people for Himself who can conduct themselves according to His will.

In my opinion,

~Josh
 
We wome should wear head coverings according to the bible. But we must also dress within the cultural norms of the society in which we live. To not do so would be to rebel against our current Christian society. So in Paul's day, women covered their heads and were not given many rights. But since the man is the head of the woman, then we must also honor what he wants us to do also. So the head covering is just a symbol that man is the head of woman. As long as we women respect that order, then I believe that this ritual is a cultural one. :) The catholics should believe that also since the popes and bishops all wear head coverings in church even though the bible says that men should not cover their heads in church. ;-)
 
We wome should wear head coverings according to the bible. But we must also dress within the cultural norms of the society in which we live. To not do so would be to rebel against our current Christian society. So in Paul's day, women covered their heads and were not given many rights. But since the man is the head of the woman, then we must also honor what he wants us to do also. So the head covering is just a symbol that man is the head of woman. As long as we women respect that order, then I believe that this ritual is a cultural one. The catholics should believe that also since the popes and bishops all wear head coverings in church even though the bible says that men should not cover their heads in church.
Click to expand...

It is possible that Paul had a cultural understanding in mind - I won't make an absolute statement until I really study the passage in depth. But it seems that either interpretation has their own good points. I think it all comes down to one thing though: sincerity of motives (being modest) and humble submission.

~Josh
 
Heidi said:
But we must also dress within the cultural norms of the society in which we live. To not do so would be to rebel against our current Christian society.
Click to expand...

What does this mean: "we must dress within the cultural norms of the society in which we live"?

In some Eurpoean nations it is a cultural norm for women to go topless. Are you suggesting that women SHOULD go topless to 'dress within the cultural norm'?

And since when do we live in a "Christian society"?
 
lovely said:
1 Corinthians 11

1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?
14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

Should women where coverings in church, or everyday? I highligted one verse in this passage that has always interested me. Does anyone have an idea what it could mean? And, if headcoverings are cultural what difference does it make to the angels...and does it still make a difference?

The Lord bless all of you
Click to expand...
Women do not have to wear head coverings in church because it is not required for them gaining entrance into Heaven that they wear head coverings. 8-)
 
RobertMazar said:
Women do not have to wear head coverings in church because it is not required for them gaining entrance into Heaven that they wear head coverings. 8-)
Click to expand...

Are you suggesting that if it is not a requirement in "gaining entrance into Heaven" that Christians do not have to do it?

For example, it is not a requirement of gaining entrance into Heaven to go to church - so does that mean Christians do not have to go?

It is not a requirement of gaining entrance into Heaven to do a lot of things that as Christians we should do, are you saying we do not have to do them?
 
aLoneVoice said:
Are you suggesting that if it is not a requirement in "gaining entrance into Heaven" that Christians do not have to do it?

For example, it is not a requirement of gaining entrance into Heaven to go to church - so does that mean Christians do not have to go?

It is not a requirement of gaining entrance into Heaven to do a lot of things that as Christians we should do, are you saying we do not have to do them?
Click to expand...
(1)Yes
(2)No
(3)Yes
8-)
 
RobertMazar said:
(1)Yes
(2)No
(3)Yes
8-)
Click to expand...

So the Commandments of God and the Example set before us by Jesus Christ are not imporant because they do not "gain us enterance into Heaven"?

Faith - without works, is dead!
 
aLoneVoice said:
So the Commandments of God and the Example set before us by Jesus Christ are not imporant because they do not "gain us enterance into Heaven"?

Faith - without works, is dead!
Click to expand...
As important as the Ten Commandments are(They should be followed) they are totally superfluous to gaining entrance into Heaven because even if someone followed the Ten Commandments perfectly they would still not gain entrance into Heaven because following the Ten Commandments is not the requirement for gaining entrance into Heaven. And even following the example of Christ will not gain one entrance into Heaven. The only requirement there is for gaining entrance into Heaven is that one receives Christ as ones Savior. 8-)
 
RobertMazar said:
As important as the Ten Commandments are(They should be followed) they are totally superfluous to gaining entrance into Heaven because even if someone followed the Ten Commandments perfectly they would still not gain entrance into Heaven because following the Ten Commandments is not the requirement for gaining entrance into Heaven. And even following the example of Christ will not gain one entrance into Heaven. The only requirement there is for gaining entrance into Heaven is that one receives Christ as ones Savior. 8-)
Click to expand...

You are missing the point Robert - what you are advocating is that as long as someone receives Christ as ones Savior, then it doesn't matter how they live out their life.

This is not the Gospel message. When one receives Christ as their Savior, they are made a new creation in Christ - as therefore, their live should show that change as well. As I said, Faith without works is dead. Because of being a new creation in Christ - we are to live out of faith with the works that God has placed before us.

Therefore, we need to follow the example of Christ, follow the teachings of Christ as a result of having 'received Christ Jesus."

If one receives Christ, they should no longer live in sin. If they continue to live a sinful life, it would be reason to question if they ever 'received' Christ in the first place.

This is not to say that we will not continue to sin, but one should not 'practice sin' after having received Jesus Christ.
 
Culture has CERTAINLY changed since the time Paul wrote letters to the Churches. People HAVE changed; but has God changed? Are those words written by Paul ANY LESS true today than two thousand years ago?

I contend that to use such an excuse as 'changing culture' is to submit that when the end comes, it would be OK to accept the 'mark' for that IS what the populace, (culture), WILL demand. And I am of the opinion that the words concerning the punishment of those that DO accept the 'mark' have NOT CHANGED ONE TIT.

People have certainly changed but the Word of God has not, nor WILL IT change. What was offered as righteous FIVE THOUSAND years ago is STILL righteous TODAY. Just because people get lazy or they decide to follow THEIR OWN will does NOT alter that of God.

MEC
 
Imagican said:
Culture has CERTAINLY changed since the time Paul wrote letters to the Churches. People HAVE changed; but has God changed? Are those words written by Paul ANY LESS true today than two thousand years ago?

I contend that to use such an excuse as 'changing culture' is to submit that when the end comes, it would be OK to accept the 'mark' for that IS what the populace, (culture), WILL demand. And I am of the opinion that the words concerning the punishment of those that DO accept the 'mark' have NOT CHANGED ONE TIT.

People have certainly changed but the Word of God has not, nor WILL IT change. What was offered as righteous FIVE THOUSAND years ago is STILL righteous TODAY. Just because people get lazy or they decide to follow THEIR OWN will does NOT alter that of God.

MEC
Click to expand...

Good post Mec - we are to be transformed by the renewing of our minds, and not conform to this world! Romans 12:2
 
I have held off on this thread a bit, because I was already in the hot seat in another thread. :-D

Anyway, I do believe that women should wear headcoverings as the verses command. Honestly, I can't think of any reason not to wear one now. It was as early as last year that I thought this was cultural, and not needed truly, but I wanted to honor my husband so I began wearing one. Since that time, my heart has changed on the matter. One simple act of obedience has touched our family in such a unique way. Several months ago I confessed to my husband that I believed the headcovering was a command, and now I see that it is needed. I don't know why I explained it away before. Of course, it is only by experience that I have come to recognize this, because I do tend to be so hardheaded at times. I wish I would have just obeyed that Scripture all these years, but I trusted commentary more...and that led to disobedience in my life.

No, I don't believe that this gains me entrance into Heaven, and I do not believe in being legalistic about anything, but I also do not equate obedience with legalism or self-righteousness. For me, the verses are a clear command, and I feel at liberty to obey them. I praise God for His merciful loosing of the chains of this culture and world-view that led to my persistent disobedience...a christian world-view, even. The more I come under God, and my husband, the more I realize that His purpose is truly being fulfilled in me when I am careful to pray for Holy fear in these areas, and seek His guidance above all else. I am hoping that God will gift me with the fruit of self-control so that I can shed as much of self as possible by His grace, and revelation, in my life. It's so exciting to walk with God.

The Lord bless all of you.
 
MEC wrote:
Culture has CERTAINLY changed since the time Paul wrote letters to the Churches. People HAVE changed; but has God changed? Are those words written by Paul ANY LESS true today than two thousand years ago?

I contend that to use such an excuse as 'changing culture' is to submit that when the end comes, it would be OK to accept the 'mark' for that IS what the populace, (culture), WILL demand. And I am of the opinion that the words concerning the punishment of those that DO accept the 'mark' have NOT CHANGED ONE TIT.

People have certainly changed but the Word of God has not, nor WILL IT change. What was offered as righteous FIVE THOUSAND years ago is STILL righteous TODAY. Just because people get lazy or they decide to follow THEIR OWN will does NOT alter that of God.
Click to expand...


ALonevoice wrote:
Good post Mec - we are to be transformed by the renewing of our minds, and not conform to this world! Romans 12:2
Click to expand...

Amen to both posts.
 
So the Commandments of God and the Example set before us by Jesus Christ are not imporant because they do not "gain us enterance into Heaven"?
Click to expand...

Robert's examples are a bit more fundamental than that. If one accepts Christ on their death bed they will not be judged according to whether they went to church or not, or whether they carried out the great commission for they would never have had the chance to do so once they were saved (like the thief on the cross). That doesn't change the importance of some things, however I do not believe that as for this issue that a legalistic observance of wearing a shawl is in view, unless of course it was cultural since the Jews and Arabs did that - either way, I do not see it necessary today if it is to be taken as meaning a shawl. But as I wrote on the first page both lines of interpretation have their own good points but the bottom line I think is modesty and integrity.

~Josh
 
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