Hearing and Seeing

[K2CHRIST]

Is 6:9 He said, "Go, and tell this people: Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand' "Render the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, and their eyes dim, Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and return and be healed."

That verse is referred to in all four gospels and Acts and Romans also. ( Matt 13:14, Mark 4:12, Luke 8:10, John 12:40, Acts 28:26, Rom 11:8)

Jeremiah writes almost the same things Jer 5:21 Now hear this , O foolish and senseless people, who have eyes but do not see; who have ears but do not hear.

In Matthew we see that this "Render the hearts of this people insensitive" was done by Jesus by speaking to the people in parables.

Matt 13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

Now here is what I want to get at. Are we supposed to be turning people to Jesus Christ or speaking to them in parables to render their hearts insensitive because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand?

Turning people to the Lord or rendering their hearts insensitive: That is the question I purpose and want to discuss on this thread?

 

[K2CHRIST]

Now the Lord has given me parables, He must have given me at least 70 parables, and sayings also. Like the disciples; He gives me the meaning afterwards. I sometimes wonder if I should be giving them to other more and even without the meanings, in order to render the hearts of the people insensitive, but I usually use them with the meanings in hope they people will turn back to the Lord and be healed. And I'd really like to discuss what it is like when I hear and see with my spiritual eyes, but I have to admit that it can be strange and I don't think people really understand because most do not see or hear much with their spiritual ears and eyes.

 

[iLOVE]

Most Believers can not perceive nor understand because of a "hardened heart." The reason why is because the supernatural is not to be an option, but a requirement. We must see things differently and not listen to your human logic. No where in the bible did logic produce a miracle.

Human wisdom believes reason produce facts( facts can change). Godly wisdom believes faith produce truth (truth never change). Truth is the highest level of reality. The word of God has enough power to replace the facts. The Law of Faith equals Truth.

 

[K2CHRIST]

Here is a parable the Lord gave me. What meaning do you see in it?


Once upon a time there was a town called Two because it had two people in the town. Now two miles away there was another town, called Too because it too had two people in the town. Now the two judges in the land came to Two and went to Too too because they wanted to judge whether Two or Too should be required to change their name. The judges decided to hold court at two in Too in two days.


So, in two days the two judges with the two of Two travel the two miles to Too. So at two in Too the two judges and the two of Too and the two of Two too held the hearing,


Of course it didn’t take but two minutes to decide that since neither of the two towns had the same name there was nothing that could be done. So at two after two both the two of Too and the two of Two hugged the two judges because the two of Too and the two of Two loved the names of Two and Too too.

 

[K2CHRIST]

Most Believers can not perceive nor understand because of a "hardened heart." The reason why is because the supernatural is not to be an option, but a requirement. We must see things differently and not listen to your human logic. No where in the bible did logic produce a miracle.

I kind of like the above quote. I would change it a little.

First: It is the "Believers" that can not perceive nor understand and who have a "hardened heart", or is it just people in general. God told Isaiah, "tell this people". I question whether "this people" mean "Most Believers", but certainly some people.

Second, there has to be a discernment of spirits, so some supernatural is bad and some is good so the requirement can not just be for the supernatural but specifically God. God is spirit and God has to be a requirement, with that I can agree.

Third, God's names include Wisdom and Understanding and He has power. God is very logically and far more than we are. So it is correct to not look to human wisdom, but to God's wisdom. But perhaps you meant that no where in the bible did human logic produce a miracle. I agree with that.


Yet the above still leaves the question of why did God tell Isaiah to speak to the people so that they would not turn back to God?


Prov 7:4 Say to wisdom, "You are my sister", and call understanding your intimate friend.

Prov 8:1 Does not wisdom call, and understanding lift up her voice?

I believe Wisdom is a name for the Holy Spirit who is sent to us and speaks to us. I believe understanding is a name for Jesus Christ who we are call to have a personal relationship with.

Prov 3:19 The Lord by wisdom founded the earth, by understanding He established the heavens

Prov 8: 14 Cousel is mine and sound wisdom; I am understanding, power is mine

 

[iLOVE]

I kind of like the above quote. I would change it a little.

First: It is the "Believers" that can not perceive nor understand and who have a "hardened heart", or is it just people in general. God told Isaiah, "tell this people". I question whether "this people" mean "Most Believers", but certainly some people.

Second, there has to be a discernment of spirits, so some supernatural is bad and some is good so the requirement can not just be for the supernatural but specifically God. God is spirit and God has to be a requirement, with that I can agree.

Third, God's names include Wisdom and Understanding and He has power. God is very logically and far more than we are. So it is correct to not look to human wisdom, but to God's wisdom. But perhaps you meant that no where in the bible did human logic produce a miracle. I agree with that.


Yet the above still leaves the question of why did God tell Isaiah to speak to the people so that they would not turn back to God?


Prov 7:4 Say to wisdom, "You are my sister", and call understanding your intimate friend.

Prov 8:1 Does not wisdom call, and understanding lift up her voice?

I believe Wisdom is a name for the Holy Spirit who is sent to us and speaks to us. I believe understanding is a name for Jesus Christ who we are call to have a personal relationship with.

Prov 3:19 The Lord by wisdom founded the earth, by understanding He established the heavens

Prov 8: 14 Cousel is mine and sound wisdom; I am understanding, power is mine

All of the Apostles had a "hardened heart" while following Jesus. Jesus warned them several times about their "hardened hearts". When God raised Jesus from the dead, Jesus returned to the Apostles and warned them again about their hearts. Please check the scriptures and see why He warned the Apostles. All it takes is just a little leaven (worldliness).

 

[childeye]

Now here is what I want to get at. Are we supposed to be turning people to Jesus Christ or speaking to them in parables to render their hearts insensitive because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand?

We're supposed to be preaching the Gospel. The Holy Spirit is the One Who does the drawing. I don't set out using parables, but sometimes God may move us to do so. We're supposed to speak as clearly and forthrightly as possible.

If God gave you the inspiration of the two towns, then I would venture to say that it is about not getting lost in semantics. Semantics cause misunderstanding and the devil can use semantics to hide Truth, hide lies, and cause division.

Consequently it seems to me that this thread is actually about making the blind seeing, and making the seeing blind. John 9:39. For the most part we can all understand why it would be desirable to make a blind man seeing. Your question should be, why does God want to make the seeing blind?

 

[K2CHRIST]

Consequently this thread is actually about making the blind seeing, and the seeing blind. Your question should be, why does God want to make the seeing blind?

Yes indeed I believe you are right! The thread "is actually about making the blind seeing and the seeing blind". I believe that is the exact reason that The Lord told Isaiah write down what the Lord told Him, also!!

I believe that when people read what Isaiah wrote, about being told to speak to the people so that they would not turn to the Lord, it should in fact cause us to actually start seeking what God would say unless we just don't care about God. It is kind of like saying to a child that because they are not behaving they are not going to get any candy. That just might cause the child to behave in order to get the candy.

And this thread was written in the same way. The purpose of the thread was to get people to see the importance of listening with their spiritual ears and seeking with their spiritual eyes.

And, like you suggested, the parable was about confusion cause by devil through semantics.

Today we usually call the Bible the Word of God, and for a legitimate reason. It is a record that God had written and we need to study it and learn from it. But the Bible calls Jesus Christ the Word of God because we can hear what He personally has to say to us via the Spirit of God. There is no law against calling both the Scriptures and Jesus by the same name "The Word of God", and we all like the fact that both the Scriptures and Jesus Christ are called the Word of God, thought it causes some confusion.

There are some Christians with a personal relationship with the Lord. It's just the two them. So they live by getting up in the morning and listening to what the Lord has to say. And of course the Lord often like to go over the Scriptures with us.

Yet there are others that have ears to hear but don't hear and eyes to see but don't see. They lean on their understanding of the Bible, but they don't actually know the Lord.

Both live in a town called "The Word of God", but it is not the same town!

So again you are right by mentioning:

Semantics cause misunderstanding and the devil can use semantics to hide Truth, hide lies, and cause division.

I have heard many Christians today say the Word of God saves, but they were holding up a Bible as the Word of God instead of holding up the Christ Jesus (God's salvation) as the Word of God. They were in fact saying knowing the Bible saves as opposed to knowing the Lord by hearing with our spiritual ears and seeing with our spiritual eyes.

In response to what you thought should be asked: "Why does God want to make the seeing blind?" I don't believe He does. He is trying to get all to see and hear with their spiritual eyes and ears, because He doesn't want any to parish in the fires of hell. He will use reverse psychology, or trying to get us to figure out the meaning of a parable (hoping we will seek Him), or by talking "as clearly and forthrightly as possible", if that will work. It just doesn't always work that well.

I guess I went a little long, but I loved your reply "childeye".

 

[Malachi]

Turning people to the Lord or rendering their hearts insensitive: That is the question I purpose and want to discuss on this thread?

The Scriptures you have been referring to refer to the nation of Israel and its response to Christ. Every Jew was called to repentance by John the Baptizer before Christ began His ministry.

Those who repented were capable of believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. But those who hardened their hearts where given a few more opportunities to repent, and then finally God hardened their hearts and blinded their minds. They were beyond salvation.

Our responsibility is to preach the fulness of God's grace and the fulness of the Gospel to "every creature". How they respond is not our concern. That is God's concern. As long as we sow the seed of God's Word (not humanistic ideas) we have done our job.

 

[Jim Parker]

Are we supposed to be turning people to Jesus Christ or speaking to them in parables to render their hearts insensitive because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand?

As I understand it, we don't turn people's hearts; the Holy Spirit does.
What we are supposed to do is, "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven." Mat 5:16 (RSV)
What we are supposed to do is ,"love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind." and "love your neighbor as yourself." (Mat 22:37, 39 RSV)

If someone doesn't want to see our "light" or receive our love then God will "render their hearts insensitive because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand." It will be their choice to be hardened because they will harden themselves first.

iakov the fool

 

[iLOVE]

As I understand it, we don't turn people's hearts; the Holy Spirit does.

Amen.

 

[childeye]

Today we usually call the Bible the Word of God, and for a legitimate reason. It is a record that God had written and we need to study it and learn from it. But the Bible calls Jesus Christ the Word of God because we can hear what He personally has to say to us via the Spirit of God. There is no law against calling both the Scriptures and Jesus by the same name "The Word of God", and we all like the fact that both the Scriptures and Jesus Christ are called the Word of God, thought it causes some confusion.

Terms are very important. The enemy uses various nuances of words so that people don't actually hear what is meant. I call the scriptures, the scriptures. I describe them as a testimony to the Word. The Word however, is Spirit.

Yet there are others that have ears to hear but don't hear and eyes to see but don't see. They lean on their understanding of the Bible, but they don't actually know the Lord.

It is written that the letter kills, while the Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6. I notice the many divisions under the label of Christianity. They are all divided by scriptural differences of interpretation. I also notice that Satan quotes scripture. But not to fear, the Spirit of Christ is in one accord with one head orchestrating the body.

In response to what you thought should be asked: "Why does God want to make the seeing blind?" I don't believe He does. He is trying to get all to see and hear with their spiritual eyes and ears, because He doesn't want any to parish in the fires of hell.

I believe this is why He makes the seeing blind through the Gospel. 1 Corinthians 1:27, 28, 29. And this has much to do with your other thread regarding finding grace in the eyes of God.

He will use reverse psychology, or trying to get us to figure out the meaning of a parable (hoping we will seek Him), or by talking "as clearly and forthrightly as possible", if that will work. It just doesn't always work that well.

We're actually fighting a spiritual enemy. The Holy Spirit can show us what to say, and how to say it, that cannot be disputed. Reverse psychology does have an effect since it uses semantics in reverse connotation which causes people to ponder the logic of what they believe.

What I mean by speaking clearly and forthrightly is all about expressing self evident Truth. One needs to understand what is the single Truth that the lies of the Kingdom of darkness exist to subvert.

 

[K2CHRIST]

As I understand it, we don't turn people's hearts; the Holy Spirit does.
What we are supposed to do is, "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven." Mat 5:16 (RSV)

Humm -- The above is an interesting thought; though it might not be how I see it or interpret the above verse. I believe God has given us a message (we call the gospel) and it is a message about getting people to turn to Jesus Christ by faith. So while I do think we have to have the Holy Spirit otherwise they are not going to turn the Christ, I still believe we provide a message and testimony if you will, and it is the same message the Holy Spirit ( who glorifies Christ) also has. So where it is written "Let your light so shine" I understand that to mean the Holy Spirit working through us. And where it reads "that they may see your good works" I understand that my good work is to draw people to Jesus Christ by faith.

Jn 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent

Also concerning:

What we are supposed to do is ,"love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind." and "love your neighbor as yourself." (Mat 22:37, 39 RSV)

That verse was concerning the greatest commandment in the Law. ( Mar 22:36 Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law?") We do need to keep the greatest commandment in the Law, but we also need to understand that to do that we must keep the foremost commandment, which is not in the Law but is the commandment that makes it possible to keep the Law. And that commandment is "Hear O, Israel!"

Mark 12: 28-30 One of the scribes... asked Him, "What commandment is the foremost of all?" Jesus answered, "The foremost is, HEAR, O ISRAEL"...

(We are commanded to "Hear". And if we take the time to hear from the Lord by faith we will love the Lord and our neighbor)

....And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.

You see the Law is fulfilled through Jesus Christ. So before fulfilling the greatest commandment in the Law we must first come to know Jesus Christ by listen to what He has to say to us. And when you do listen to Him you just have to love Him. And the more you listen to Him the more you love Him. And if you listen to Him a lot, pretty soon you are going to love with all you have. And loving and knowing Him produces a love for others.

Too often we make it about our good works instead of just knowing Him. We fail to realize the knowing Him by faith is our good works. If you come to know Him, there is going to become a desire that others should come to know Him also. He is just that fantastic.

 

[K2CHRIST]

What I mean by speaking clearly and forthrightly is all about expressing self evident Truth. One needs to understand what is the single Truth that the lies of the Kingdom of darkness exist to subvert

Jesus is the Truth. We know that because it is written that He is the Truth.

So if I am going to speaking clearly and forthrightly I am say Jesus Christ, instead of using the word "Truth" for His name. And while I agree that Jesus Christ should be self evident, because He said He stands at the door and knocks and if anyone hears His voice and opens the door He will come into them. (Rev 3:20) So He should be self evident because He is knocking on everyone door with His voice. But people are saying they don't hear Him. So I tell them to listen with their spiritual ears. And yes, if I am speaking clearly and forthrightly I will also tell them that there are demons trying to keep you from believing that you can just hear from Him. So I absolutely believe you are correct in what you wrote above, but honestly it didn't seem that clear or forthright. It seem like it was a parable or saying. But perhaps that will get people thinking about what you were trying to say instead of just reading it and passing it over. Isn't that why the Lord had Isaiah write down what he did?

 

[Sinthesis]

Young's Literal Translation gives us another way to understand this concept. Basically those who arrogantly perceive the world through the wrong spirit are not going to understand their error until they are brought low. It would have been wrong for Jesus to allow people to accept Him as Messiah if they did so for the wrong reasons.

Isa 6:8 - And I hear the voice of the Lord, saying: 'Whom do I send? and who doth go for Us?' And I say, 'Here am I, send me.'
Isa 6:9 - And He saith, 'Go, and thou hast said to this people, Hear ye -- to hear, and ye do not understand, And see ye -- to see, and ye do not know.
Isa 6:10 - Declare fat the heart of this people, And its ears declare heavy, And its eyes declare dazzled, Lest it see with its eyes, And with its ears hear, and its heart consider, And it hath turned back, and hath health.'
Isa 6:11 - And I say, 'Till when, O Lord?' And He saith, 'Surely till cities have been wasted without inhabitant, And houses without man, And the ground be wasted -- a desolation,​

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Here is a parable the Lord gave me. What meaning do you see in it?


Once upon a time there was a town called Two because it had two people in the town. Now two miles away there was another town, called Too because it too had two people in the town. Now the two judges in the land came to Two and went to Too too because they wanted to judge whether Two or Too should be required to change their name. The judges decided to hold court at two in Too in two days.


So, in two days the two judges with the two of Two travel the two miles to Too. So at two in Too the two judges and the two of Too and the two of Two too held the hearing,


Of course it didn’t take but two minutes to decide that since neither of the two towns had the same name there was nothing that could be done. So at two after two both the two of Too and the two of Two hugged the two judges because the two of Too and the two of Two loved the names of Two and Too too.

I think I'm kind of flabbergasted for a meaning behind the parable. To me it sounds like a story kind of written like a Dr. Seuse story, and if there is a desiganited meaning, it's not something I can grasp at this point in time. But on the other hand, if it's something from the Holy Spirit, I guess it might turn out like speaking in tongues. Not understood by everyone but very much a spiritual gift and something of very good value.

I want to encourage you K2CHRIST, but in this case, don't know how, or even to understand it so I could tell if it was a spiritual thing, or a nice story to enjoy. If it helps I did enjoy the story, and was glad that the judges and the two towns resolved the conflict of their names or changing their names, even if it sounds silly to have needed to resolve that issue to begin with.

Trust the Holy Spirit. However even then, if there is no harm that you can see out of it, and aren't sure it's a spiritual parable or a nice story (I only say this because I'm not sure), then it's still a nice story and I don't see any harm in it to share with anyone.

 

[Habak]

This is a fascinating thread. I will read it again, probably several times.


I don’t believe anyone, with eyes and ears, can fail to see spiritually inspired people who are seeing differently.


I would add some immediate context, which brackets mentioned verses, that I don’t think have been mentioned:


Mat 13:10-12 (ASV) Then the disciples came and said to him, "Why do you speak to them in parables?" And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.


Mat 13:16, 17 (ASV) But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

 

[childeye]

Jesus is the Truth. We know that because it is written that He is the Truth.

So if I am going to speaking clearly and forthrightly I am say Jesus Christ, instead of using the word "Truth" for His name. And while I agree that Jesus Christ should be self evident, because He said He stands at the door and knocks and if anyone hears His voice and opens the door He will come into them. (Rev 3:20) So He should be self evident because He is knocking on everyone door with His voice. But people are saying they don't hear Him. So I tell them to listen with their spiritual ears. And yes, if I am speaking clearly and forthrightly I will also tell them that there are demons trying to keep you from believing that you can just hear from Him. So I absolutely believe you are correct in what you wrote above, but honestly it didn't seem that clear or forthright. It seem like it was a parable or saying. But perhaps that will get people thinking about what you were trying to say instead of just reading it and passing it over. Isn't that why the Lord had Isaiah write down what he did?

Sometimes I begin the Gospel by asking do you believe in True Love? This is as clear and forthright as I know how to make it. I will then point by point, argue the ramifications of believing that nothing is pure, with the inevitable submitting, that True Love is on display on the cross of Christ. But of course the Gospel is meant to be responded to according to God's purpose, that no flesh should glory.

 

[Jim Parker]

we also need to understand that to do that we must keep the foremost commandment, which is not in the Law but is the commandment that makes it possible to keep the Law. And that commandment is "Hear O, Israel!"

That's good! Me likie!

Too often we make it about our good works instead of just knowing Him.

Right.
Those are two different things. We must know Him to be united to Him, to be His body and His bride.
Our good works are the evidence that we know Him and have chosen to obey Him. Our works will be the evidence by which we are judged when Jesus comes again. (Matthew 25: 31-46, John 5:28-29, Romans 6:2-10 )

iakov the fool

 

[K2CHRIST]

Sometimes I begin the Gospel by asking do you believe in True Love? This is as clear and forthright as I know how to make it. I will then point by point, argue the ramifications of believing that nothing is pure, with the inevitable submitting, that True Love is on display on the cross of Christ. But of course the Gospel is meant to be responded to according to God's purpose, that no flesh should glory.

I love reading your posts, childeye. I don't always see eye to eye with you, but your thoughts are interesting. I like people that preach the gospel. I tend to go about it a bit different though. I usually just start by stating the God is real and that they can get to know Him. I might point out that Jesus Christ went to the cross so that we have forgiveness of sins, but my main point is always about getting to know Him for themselves. I like to use Rev 3:20 where He says He stands at the door and knocks and if anyone hears His voice an opens the door He will come in and eat with them.

That is the way it is with me, so that is how I tend to preach. I get up in the morning and usually have something to say to Him before getting out of bed. Normally I say something like, "Is it time to get up", but I could say almost anything. It just depends on what's on my mind. And I hear a response, which could be almost anything depending on what's on His mind. It's a real relationship. I talk to Him. He listens and responds to me. Today He wanted me to go to a couple of yard sales, but He didn't want me to go until my wife got up because He wanted her to come with me. He also specifically asked me to go by a certain library. He asked me to make a particular response to another thread I had going. At one point He had me change out of my jeans into a pair of shorts because it was getting hot. At another point He suddenly asked me to make a call to encourage someone. I know I sound a bit weird telling people that I hear from Him like that, but that is how it is and so that is how I preach it. I believe He is the good news!

Because of Him I spent a nice day with my wife. I found a really neat Elvis gospel CD at a yard sale. I haven't yet heard it but I can't wait to listen to Elvis singing Amazing Grace. I loved the teaching He gave me to share on the forum, but it seems to have gone over other's heads. I got some neat books at the library and I didn't think I would find anything good. And the call to the person, who was really feeling down went really well. It was just another nice day following Jesus Christ and His voice.