Hearing and Seeing

[beloved57]

k2c

Is 6:9 He said, "Go, and tell this people: Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand' "Render the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, and their eyes dim, Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and return and be healed."

That verse is referred to in all four gospels and Acts and Romans also. ( Matt 13:14, Mark 4:12, Luke 8:10, John 12:40, Acts 28:26, Rom 11:8)

Thats because it wasnt Gods purpose for them to be converted, He had purposed to dam them in unbelief, as He does many others.

 

[K2CHRIST]

Thats because it wasnt Gods purpose for them to be converted, He had purposed to dam them in unbelief, as He does many others.

It certainly does appear that way when we read it. However I believe that because God is love and desires that nobody should perish, there must be a greater reason for saying it. There must be a reason in which the purpose is to actually turn stubborn people back to Him.

Note that God did not just say that to Isaiah, but we also have it recorded in the Scriptures. So it stands as a warning to what happens to us when we become stubborn. A warning should then cause the opposite to happen. That is to say, this record of what God was telling Isaiah should have gotten people to reconsider the habit of not seeking the voice of God. It's kind of like God saying to us, 'Look, if you don't reconsider your position of not turning to Me you are not going to get your healing.'

I also believe there is a little more to it than that, but I believe that was the main reason. Therefore I don't believe it was to dam them in unbelief, though I admit as first look it does seem that way. Instead I believe it was a warning that they were stuck in unbelief which would dam them.

 

[beloved57]

k2c

It certainly does appear that way when we read it.

It is that way.

However I believe that because God is love and desires that nobody should perish, there must be a greater reason for saying it.

What you believe means nothing when its in opposition to what scripture says.

There must be a reason in which the purpose is to actually turn stubborn people back to Him.

Thats your job to find that reason and post it, just saying it means nothing.

I also believe there is a little more to it than that, but I believe that was the main reason. Therefore I don't believe it was to dam them in unbelief, though I admit as first look it does seem that way. Instead I believe it was a warning that they were stuck in unbelief which would dam them.

You have no scripture to back up your sentiments. There blinding was purposed by God, Jesus stated it again in Jn 12:37-41

37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

They could not believe, means they did not have the ability to believe on Jesus because of what had been already determined by God !

 

[childeye]

I like to use Rev 3:20 where He says He stands at the door and knocks and if anyone hears His voice an opens the door He will come in and eat with them.

I know I sound a bit weird telling people that I hear from Him like that, but that is how it is and so that is how I preach it. I believe He is the good news!

You have blatantly made it known in your posts that you hear God's voice. I applaud your boldness to say how it is for you in all forthrightness.

I hear God's voice too, and He is my reason to live, even as He has made life a constant epiphany. The things I preach are His revelations of Himself, of which I cannot stop thinking about, and am obsessed with speaking about. Therefore I sincerely seek to not venture a single word that might blaspheme His Name through some unseen vanity. It is a true humility that understands that knowledge puffs up, and that God can teach me lessons from the mouth of an ass. (I'm not implying you're an ass).

When you say you don't always see eye to eye with me, I believe that it is an issue of semantics. I see through semantics even as God has enabled me. In all forthrightness our differences are over the meaning of the term 'freewill'.

It is no accident that above you speak of Jesus knocking on the door of the heart, and if any man opens, he will come in an eat with them, that they may come to know Him. Your point is that a person must consent to opening the door so that they may know Him. With my full agreement that this consent is necessary, I hope you might understand that I delve into those matters of why a person will, and will not, open the door. I therefore confidently declare that 'Freewill' is not the reason for either opening the door nor not opening it. But of course the truth of that statement can only be seen if one knows what the term freewill implies. Just as 1+1=2 is contingent upon knowing what the number one means.

 

[K2CHRIST]

I love your posts childeye:

I hope I am not to "blatant" in my approach, but if I am going to make a mistake about how I tell people about the Lord I'd rather error on the side of being too blatant.

I guess I disagree with your thoughts that free "will" is not the reason for either our opening the door or not opening the door. So you are probably right that it might be more a matter of what we both term free will to be. I think that if I can consent, I can do that only because I have free will, that is the ability to choose. Maybe I'll figure how you don't see that as the case. We all know in part, so figuring out what part others know is part of the reason I like the Christian Forum. God Bless

 

[childeye]

I think that if I can consent, I can do that only because I have free will, that is the ability to choose. Maybe I'll figure how you don't see that as the case.

Well let me show you. I would venture to say that according to your above reasoning, that you would also agree with this; I think that if I can not consent, I can do that only because I have free will, that is the ability to choose. Now look at those two statements objectively together. They both cite the same reason for both letting Christ in, and not letting Christ in. Do you actually believe I should conclude that the reason to believe in Christ, is the same reason to not believe in Christ?

 

[Eugene]

Dear brother K2CHRIST, this following exhorting of the word may help in what you’re saying. I like the thought below that says: The prophetic Word does not make these things to happen; but they are revealed beforehand by the prophecy.
http://www.gracegod.com/Study Books/Gospel of John.pdf

The next part, Jesus and His rejection, follows after He had spoken words of warning to them, "Yet a little while is the Light with you. Walk while you have the light lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness, knoweth not whether he goeth." There follows here again, as is so constantly in John, the conflict between faith and unbelief. Man's condition is revealed by the presence of Jesus in the midst as the Savior. The cross is an offense to men unless they realize and admit their need. It is the self-righteous man who refuses the blood-way of salvation. It is abhorrent to him but how precious for the one who knows that he is a sinner. And the verdict of the Scripture is absolutely against the unbeliever and for the Christ and His cross. His "lifting up" is His glory tho' men refuse to accept this only way of salvation. And they are without excuse; for He had given them every possible sign that He was the Messiah; yet they remained adamant. Nevertheless, that was no surprise to the Lord. It had been written centuries earlier by the prophet Isaiah, that such would be the attitude of Israel. John declares that the Prophet had so written; therefore it must be so fulfilled. This does not signify that the unbelief of the people was in order to fulfill a prophecy; but in not believing they did fulfill it. There are two quotations here from Isaiah. One, referring to Christ's first advent, the other to His second. The first is from the marvelous atonement chapter 53; the second from the great throne vision, chapter 6. Here are some vivid facts recorded concerning the Scriptures. Isaiah's prophecy in the first connection is striking. He appears to be distressed that his words are not believed. "Who hath believed our report?" or preaching? he inquires. Then the question is answered by the second citation. "They could not believe because Isaiah said again, He hath blinded their eyes and hardened their heart that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart and be converted and I should heal them."

Here are tremendous facts revealed. The prophetic Word does not make these things to happen; but they are revealed beforehand by the prophecy. The Lord bases all His claims to being what He is the true and living God upon His ability to make known before hand that which shall come to pass. He challenges all claimants to His honor and glory to do likewise, and so prove their claims to divine prerogatives. "Show the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods" Isa. 41: 21-23. Unbelief is voluntary, not compulsory. They could not believe because they would not. Their state was due to their own attitude not to the will of God. Observe this important fact; the Lord, whom Isaiah in vision saw sitting upon a throne, was Christ Isa. 6:1. "He saw His glory and spoke of Him." Nevertheless with the Glory before their eyes, the people did not believe, and the few who did, feared to confess Him on account of the Pharisees. And the verdict of the Scriptures is "that they loved the praises of men, more than the praise of God." Then we read of the sequel. "Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on Me, believeth not on Me, but on Him that sent Me."

 

[K2CHRIST]

Well let me show you. I would venture to say that according to your above reasoning, that you would also agree with this; I think that if I can not consent, I can do that only because I have free will, that is the ability to choose. Now look at those two statements objectively together. They both cite the same reason for both letting Christ in, and not letting Christ in. Do you actually believe I should conclude that the reason to believe in Christ, is the same reason to not believe in Christ?

Of course we are talking about free will, but I think it can be tied together with seeing and hearing.

I have seen many discussions on free-will vs predestination. I believe both are true, it's just a matter of perspective. I can get up in the morning and decide to talk to the Lord. When I do I hear a response. So I can choose and to me that is my free will. I understand that God knows what is going to happen before hand. I understand that He can control my actions.

For example I might give me a dream at night knowing that I will want to talk about it in the morning. So in that way He can control my talking to Him and what we talk about. And since He can put a dream in my head He can also put other thoughts in my head. So I understand someone with a predestination perspective. But I am me, and my perspective is from the person wanting to talk to the Lord in the morning. I decide to do that.

I decide to talk to Him about any dreams and other thoughts He puts in my head. The fact that He knows how I am and how I decide doesn't change the fact I am the one who like to talk to the Lord and so choose to do so. So I promote talking to Him. I also can choose to try and see with my spiritual eyes. I don't like doing that as much as hearing with my spiritual ears because I find seeing with my spiritual eye really strange. He of course knows that and He controls what I do see when I see with them.

And He often tells me to use my spiritual eyes more. That very statement from Him implies I do have a free will, and He knows it. Otherwise why tell me that I should to anything if He hasn't given me free will to choose. As mentioned I have seen many long discussions on these issues, and to me at least it is a very simple. It comes down to He is God and can control things, yet I am me and can choose things because He gave me the ability to do so. People can choose to seek Him. And the Scriptures encourages us to do that. So why encourage us if we have no choice and how unfair of God if He punishes anyone if they don't have a choice. And my conversation and the Scriptures don't give the impression God is unfair, and they do give the impression we have a choice.

For me the good news is that I can choose to talk to Him, and He will respond. And I don't care much about whether He knows what is going to be said because from my perspective He makes decisions based upon my actions.

2 Chr 15:13 All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman.

From our perspective, we need to choose to seek the Lord. We can do that at anytime. And we are held accountable for doing it or not. He may know who will, but from my perspective and any persons perspective for that matter, they had better choose to seek the Lord the God of Israel. So see it from that perspective, so I tell people to seek Him by faith. I tell them to try and listen to the Lord via their spiritual ears, and to seek with their spiritual eyes, even though I think it pretty weird.

I still like seeing what others think. I don't require everyone to think like me and I find other's thoughts interesting. I'm not putting people to death because they didn't seek the Lord in their life time, but I do think hell is hot so I encourage them to do so.

I maybe a nit simplistic, but there is also something written about being like a little child. I am not fully expecting to understand the depts. of God, but I have come to enjoy talking things over with Him.

He once told me,

TWO MEN WERE WALKING DOWN THE ROAD, ONE TRIPED OVER SOMETHING HE DIDN’T SEE, THE OTHER DIDN’T BECAUSE HE WAS PAYING ATTENTION.

God is spirit so we don't see Him, but that doesn't mean we can't fall because we don't pay attention to Him. We can trip of Him and take a great fall. And sometime I wonder it people do trip over the free will and predestination question of God and don't actually choose to listen to Him. I'm not saying that is anyone in particular, only that I could see how predestination could be an excuse used to not seek to hear with our ears and seek with our eyes, then have our hearts hardened and not turn back to Him. So I think we need to choose to seek the Lord with all the ability to choose we might have been given by God. We need to choose to pay attention!!

 

[K2CHRIST]

I'm not sure I understand the connection in the above post. Even Jesus (who is God) felt knowing the depths of God was something that could not be grasped. So none of us posting here certainly can "truly appreciate" what God is doing. We are all just trying to get a little more understanding.

I can certainly understand that I can choose to believe, because I do that. I will never understand the full depths of God's involvement in that decision, because none of us can do that. So unbelief or belief is voluntary from my point of view, even if God has a deeper point of view. And since by necessity we discuss things from our point of view, Eugene is correct by writing "Unbelief is voluntary, not compulsory, They could not believe because they would not." Not only that, but God hold us accountable for acting correctly based upon our point of view! God judges our heart. So we need to choose Him everyday, and encourage others to do the same things everyday.

Heb 3:7 TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKE ME,...

Heb 3:13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today", so that none of you will be hardened by deceitfulness of sin.

So we are to encourage each other to listen for the voice of God everyday. And this was emphasized over and over.


Heb 3:15 TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS...

Heb 4:7 TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS....

And since the Lord said He would never leave us, isn't today the day to talk to Him and listen to what He tells you?

Is 30: 19-21 ... He will surely be gracious (give you unmerited favor) to you at the sound of your cry; when He hears it, He will answer you. Although the Lord has given you bred of privation and water of oppression, He, your Teacher will no longer hide Himself, but your eyes will behold your Teacher. Your ears will hear a word behind you, "This is the way, walk in it," whenever you turn to the right of to the left.

He my Teacher once told me "WHEN WE TALK TO GOD, GOD TALKS TO US……. WHEN WE LISTEN TO GOD, GOD LISTENS TO US!"

Maybe to some He has been hidden, but if they cry out to God He will answer them. So they have a choice to cry out to God or not. I'm not saying He doesn't already know what they will choose, or that He didn't know what He made, or that He hasn't put them in this situation or that situation so that they will or will not cry out. All that and more maybe true and must be. Still we all can choose and will be accountable for choosing or not. And my instructions from God are to encourage others to choose to seek the Lord and to hear his voice today and to not harden their hearts. So that is what I do.

 

[childeye]

I can certainly understand that I can choose to believe, because I do that. So unbelief or belief is voluntary from my point of view, even if God has a deeper point of view. And since by necessity we discuss things from our point of view, Eugene is correct by writing "Unbelief is voluntary, not compulsory, They could not believe because they would not."

I agree with you, that by necessity we do discuss things from our point of view. Hence we speak according to what, by necessity, we believe to be true at the moment we speak. We don't volunteer at any moment, to believe what we believe to be true at that moment. Therefore since I know that I never volunteered to believe, I preach accordingly, by saying that I was shown a Truth that changed what I believed. Such is the power of God's Truth when seen and heard.

I also know that Saul was changed from a persecutor of Christ, to a preacher willing to die for the Gospel he once sought to silence, by the same Truth that changed me. He didn't volunteer to stone Stephen through a voluntary unbelief. Therefore Stephen could say with all forthrightness before falling asleep, And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, "Lord, lay not this sin to their charge". Acts 7:60.

I can't help but restate, that unbelief is the condition, everyone by necessity must be in, before believing, and it is therefore a pre-disposition. The implications of that, are completely different than the implications of saying unbelief is voluntary. One gives glory to the Truth of God, and the other gives vainglory to the chooser, by concluding that with the imagined freewill, others could have freely chosen to believe, but they didn't. That's why some good posters are here, trying to say that God does it His way, apart from the wills of men, so that no flesh may glory. John 1:13.

 

[Butch5]

Is 6:9 He said, "Go, and tell this people: Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand' "Render the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, and their eyes dim, Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and return and be healed."

That verse is referred to in all four gospels and Acts and Romans also. ( Matt 13:14, Mark 4:12, Luke 8:10, John 12:40, Acts 28:26, Rom 11:8)

Jeremiah writes almost the same things Jer 5:21 Now hear this , O foolish and senseless people, who have eyes but do not see; who have ears but do not hear.

In Matthew we see that this "Render the hearts of this people insensitive" was done by Jesus by speaking to the people in parables.

Matt 13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

Now here is what I want to get at. Are we supposed to be turning people to Jesus Christ or speaking to them in parables to render their hearts insensitive because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand?

Turning people to the Lord or rendering their hearts insensitive: That is the question I purpose and want to discuss on this thread?

Those words were spoken of Israel, not people in general.

 

[beloved57]

Hearing and seeing spiritually requires spiritual life as physical life is required for one to hear and see physically. Jesus told sinners that they could not hear His word John 8:43 and He tells us who it is who hears Gods words in John 8:47.

 

[K2CHRIST]

Those words were spoken of Israel, not people in general.

So you think the Bible is for Israel only and not people in general? Have you not read that we are grafted in to the Jewish root? I referenced Rom 11:8, and so are you saying the Romans was only to the Jews?

ROM 10:11 For the Scriptures says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all

Rom 10:18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD"

Rom 11: 7,8 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; just as it is written, "GOD GVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY

Israel served as an example to all of us, whether chosen or whether we are the rest. There is no distinction, otherwise Israel can not serve as an example. There would have been not need to write to the Romans as "people in general". If only for and to Israel there would have been no need to preserve the Scriptures through the years and no need to for an instruction to make disciples of all the nations! (Matt 28:19) And there would have been no reason for Paul to have written the Romans about the good news, explaining that it was not just to the Israelites!

There is no distinction between Jew and Greek. The Bible and the message applies to all. The Israelites were people "in general" whom God choose to use as an example. So the question remains, "Are we going to seek the Lord to hear what He has to personally say to us (people in general)?" God certainly knows, but that doesn't change whether you will seek Him or not. Seek Him and you will find you were chosen, because it is written that all who seek find.

Luke 11:9 So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened.

 

[K2CHRIST]

I can't help but restate, that unbelief is the condition, everyone by necessity must be in, before believing, and it is therefore a pre-disposition. The implications of that, are completely different than the implications of saying unbelief is voluntary. One gives glory to the Truth of God, and the other gives vainglory to the chooser, by concluding that with the imagined freewill, others could have freely chosen to believe, but they didn't. That's why some good posters are here, trying to say that God does it His way, apart from the wills of men, so that no flesh may glory. John 1:13.

I like the post, childeye.

I am not supposing that anyone comes to the Lord without the Lord's will being applied in their life. Nor am I saying that God does not get the glory. You or I can not keep God from getting the glory, so let us give Him the glory He deserves. Yet even in giving Him the glory we must give Him the credit for giving us the ability to choose. We do that. We choose.

I can get up in the morning and seek God, or not. That ability was given to me by God, so He gets the glory for me having that ability, and I thank God for it. So in God I have freedom. Even the freedom to choose.

For example; not five minutes before writing this I was talking to the Lord. He asked me, "Karl, do you want to take a walk with Me?" I like going on walks with Him, but I had a couple things on my mind this morning. I did want to talk to Him, but I also was feeling like I wanted to make a post on the forum, and I also wanted to build my business a little today. So I told Him I would go on a walk with Him, but couldn't we just walk and talk while we worked on these other things. "Certainly, we will do that." was His response.

I know me. I am selfish, so why should I want to take time to post and tell people about Him? It is because I find Him incredible, that He God would talk to Me. And since I also find that others, even confessing Christians, don't seem to understand the relationship we can have with Him, I get zealous for telling others about Him. He caused that, not me. The glory goes to Him, but I can still choose to walk with HIm, and He cares enough for me that He will let me have choices, and even a choice to have a conversation with Him or not.

So I choose Him. Yeah, it is because He choose me first, but I still choose Him, and encourage other to hear from Him also. And that is what we are asked to do!

Heb 3:13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today".

Heb 3: 14 "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE...

childeye, I liked your thoughts on 'pre-disposition'. I believe they are correct and worthy to consider. But He, Jesus Christ, who talks to be via the Holy Spirit, is the Truth. I am always impressed with those that know the Truth. If you know a person, the Truth, you hear from that person. You have conversation with that person. If we know the Lord, we hear from Him. We have conversation with Him. And we know He gives us freedom. A freedom so great that God will ask us what we want. This morning He was giving me a teaching about "so great a salvation". How great it is indeed that we can listen to God, and greater still that He will listen to us. "Pre-disposition" is the sad news, but I have the good news. We can choose to seek God and find Him, so who cares if He chooses us first? I care about choosing Him!

 

[childeye]

I like the post, childeye.

I am not supposing that anyone comes to the Lord without the Lord's will being applied in their life. Nor am I saying that God does not get the glory. You or I can not keep God from getting the glory, so let us give Him the glory He deserves. Yet even in giving Him the glory we must give Him the credit for giving us the ability to choose. We do that. We choose.

I can get up in the morning and seek God, or not. That ability was given to me by God, so He gets the glory for me having that ability, and I thank God for it. So in God I have freedom. Even the freedom to choose.

For example; not five minutes before writing this I was talking to the Lord. He asked me, "Karl, do you want to take a walk with Me?" I like going on walks with Him, but I had a couple things on my mind this morning. I did want to talk to Him, but I also was feeling like I wanted to make a post on the forum, and I also wanted to build my business a little today. So I told Him I would go on a walk with Him, but couldn't we just walk and talk while we worked on these other things. "Certainly, we will do that." was His response.

I know me. I am selfish, so why should I want to take time to post and tell people about Him? It is because I find Him incredible, that He God would talk to Me. And since I also find that others, even confessing Christians, don't seem to understand the relationship we can have with Him, I get zealous for telling others about Him. He caused that, not me. The glory goes to Him, but I can still choose to walk with HIm, and He cares enough for me that He will let me have choices, and even a choice to have a conversation with Him or not.

So I choose Him. Yeah, it is because He choose me first, but I still choose Him, and encourage other to hear from Him also. And that is what we are asked to do!

Heb 3:13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today".

Heb 3: 14 "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE...

childeye, I liked your thoughts on 'pre-disposition'. I believe they are correct and worthy to consider. But He, Jesus Christ, who talks to be via the Holy Spirit, is the Truth. I am always impressed with those that know the Truth. If you know a person, the Truth, you hear from that person. You have conversation with that person. If we know the Lord, we hear from Him. We have conversation with Him. And we know He gives us freedom. A freedom so great that God will ask us what we want. This morning He was giving me a teaching about "so great a salvation". How great it is indeed that we can listen to God, and greater still that He will listen to us. "Pre-disposition" is the sad news, but I have the good news. We can choose to seek God and find Him, so who cares if He chooses us first? I care about choosing Him!

Please forgive me if I appear to show an aversion to the term choice/chose/choose. I understand that everything we do, can be construed as a choice. If I'm not standing, I'm sitting, or running, walking, laying down, eating, not eating, drinking, not drinking, working, resting, etc... Every moment, and every action, and even every inaction, can be called a choice happening. So it's not that I'm arguing that we don't make choices. It's just that choices are inevitable because we are living sentient beings with a will that compels us to be doing, or not doing something, at all times.

But what is a free will? It implies we are in control and self determined. That is easily disputed by the simple fact that we are carnal beings that can be ruled by sin, and groping in the darkness through a blindness to the Truth. Hearing and seeing the Truth is not a simple matter of choosing to do so.

You mentioned choosing God and I appreciate your zeal for Him, but that does not necessarily mean that you chose to hear and see, even if the option existed to not do so. Notice that Saul/Paul thought he was following God's voice when he was persecuting the Christ. So when I say I give God the glory, it means to me that only by His grace do I see and hear. That is a humbling statement unto the edifying of my spirit. To say I chose God, is not.

 

[Butch5]

So you think the Bible is for Israel only and not people in general? Have you not read that we are grafted in to the Jewish root? I referenced Rom 11:8, and so are you saying the Romans was only to the Jews?

ROM 10:11 For the Scriptures says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all

Rom 10:18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD"

Rom 11: 7,8 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; just as it is written, "GOD GVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY

Israel served as an example to all of us, whether chosen or whether we are the rest. There is no distinction, otherwise Israel can not serve as an example. There would have been not need to write to the Romans as "people in general". If only for and to Israel there would have been no need to preserve the Scriptures through the years and no need to for an instruction to make disciples of all the nations! (Matt 28:19) And there would have been no reason for Paul to have written the Romans about the good news, explaining that it was not just to the Israelites!

There is no distinction between Jew and Greek. The Bible and the message applies to all. The Israelites were people "in general" whom God choose to use as an example. So the question remains, "Are we going to seek the Lord to hear what He has to personally say to us (people in general)?" God certainly knows, but that doesn't change whether you will seek Him or not. Seek Him and you will find you were chosen, because it is written that all who seek find.

Luke 11:9 So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, it will be opened.

That's not what I said. Again, those words were spoken to Israel. Not every word in the Bible applies to everyone. Some things are spoken to certain people and they only pertain to those people. The passage from Isaiah was addressed to Israel and it only applied to them.

 

[K2CHRIST]

That's not what I said. Again, those words were spoken to Israel. Not every word in the Bible applies to everyone. Some things are spoken to certain people and they only pertain to those people. The passage from Isaiah was addressed to Israel and it only applied to them.

Ok I agree that not everything is for everyone, and obviously even the verse in question was not for Isaiah who wrote it. Let me just post the verse in question again.

Is 6:9 He said, "Go, and tell this people: Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand' "Render the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, and their eyes dim, Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and return and be healed."

This verse was not only spoken to the Israelites, but was references five times in the four gospels, which seem to have a broader implication than just to the Israelites, and in Acts, and in Romans. While I agree that it is not for everyone, but it certainly is for more than just the Israelites since it was referenced even to the Romans. So I did follow the reason for your writing.

Those words were spoken of Israel, not people in general.

Since it is prominently featured through out the Bible, and since we still have the Bible as a record to be studied, it seems unwise to think that it doesn't apply to us at least to some degree. While I don't think we need to have a tent and move around the desert, I do think we had better be hearing and seeing what God has for us personally.

 

[Butch5]

Ok I agree that not everything is for everyone, and obviously even the verse in question was not for Isaiah who wrote it. Let me just post the verse in question again.

Is 6:9 He said, "Go, and tell this people: Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand' "Render the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, and their eyes dim, Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and return and be healed."

This verse was not only spoken to the Israelites, but was references five times in the four gospels, which seem to have a broader implication than just to the Israelites, and in Acts, and in Romans. While I agree that it is not for everyone, but it certainly is for more than just the Israelites since it was referenced even to the Romans. So I did follow the reason for your writing.



Since it is prominently featured through out the Bible, and since we still have the Bible as a record to be studied, it seems unwise to think that it doesn't apply to us at least to some degree. While I don't think we need to have a tent and move around the desert, I do think we had better be hearing and seeing what God has for us personally.

If you look at the places where it's referenced you'll see it's talking about Israel.

 

[Jim Parker]

Thats because it wasnt Gods purpose for them to be converted, He had purposed to dam them in unbelief, as He does many others.

Scripture specifically states that it is God's will that NONE (not even one single person) should be lost. According to scripture, it is absolutely NOT "God's purpose" that anyone be damned.
2Pe 3:9 (RSV)The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
1Ti 2:3-6 (RSV) This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time.
The idea that it is God's will that anyone would be born for the express purpose of being tortured in the fires of hell for all eternity is a grotesque distortion of the revelation of the God revealed in scripture Who is love.
The false idea that God makes it His purpose to condemn people to hell gives people a reason to distrust and even hate God.

Alexandre Kalomiros put it this way:
"I have the suspicion that men today believe in God more than at any other time in human history. Men know the gospel, the teaching of the Church, and God's creation better than at any other time. They have a profound consciousness of His existence. Their atheism is not a real disbelief. It is rather an aversion toward somebody we know very well but whom we hate with all our heart, exactly as the demons do.

We hate God; that is why we ignore Him, overlooking Him as if we did not see Him, and pretending to be atheists. In reality we consider Him our enemy par excellence. Our negation is our vengeance; our atheism is our revenge.

But why do men hate God? They hate Him not only because their deeds are dark while God is light, but also because they consider Him as a menace, as an imminent and eternal danger, as an adversary in court, as an opponent at law, as a public prosecutor and an eternal persecutor. To them, God is no more the almighty physician who came to save them from illness and death, but rather a cruel judge and a vengeful inquisitor.

You see, the devil managed to make men believe that God does not really love us, that He really only loves Himself, and that He accepts us only if we behave as He wants us to behave; that He hates us if we do not behave as He ordered us to behave, and is offended by our insubordination to such a degree that we must pay for it by eternal tortures, created by Him for that purpose.

Who can love a torturer? Even those who try hard to save themselves from the wrath of God cannot really love Him. They love only themselves, trying to escape God's vengeance and to achieve eternal bliss by managing to please this fearsome and extremely dangerous Creator."
"River of Fire", 1980

iakov the fool 2