Heb 2:3, 4 the end of miracles

[MisterE]

Heb 2:3, 4

how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.
God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

This passage speaks to the author of the epistle to the Hebrews. The first generation of those preaching the gospel was announced by Jesus, Jesus' preaching was confirmed to us (Second Generation Christians), by those (First century Christians) who heard Jesus. So the author of Hebrews is a Second Generation Christian. The first generation Christians performed signs, wonders. and miracles; these apostolic signs were confirmed to us by those who performed the miracles. Here we see that the miracles were observed by the second generation Christians, they were not the ones performing them. The sign miracles seem to be no longer being performed by the second generation Christians. The were on their way out in the time of the second generation audience.

The apostle Paul was therefore not the author of Hebrews.

Another thing we know about the author of Hebrews is that he was familiar with Timothy (13.23).

 

[KV-44-v1]

"The end of miracles".

Do you believe that miracles are no longer happening?

 

[Whatever]

The apostle Paul was therefore not the author of Hebrews.

I agree with that.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Paul seems to be adamant that he was not a second generation Christian who had learned it from anybody else.

 

[MisterE]

"The end of miracles".

Do you believe that miracles are no longer happening?

The gift of miracles is no longer operative. But, yes, God is still in the miracle business!!!

 

[Corinth77777]

Heb 2:3, 4

how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.
God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

This passage speaks to the author of the epistle to the Hebrews. The first generation of those preaching the gospel was announced by Jesus, Jesus' preaching was confirmed to us (Second Generation Christians), by those (First century Christians) who heard Jesus. So the author of Hebrews is a Second Generation Christian. The first generation Christians performed signs, wonders. and miracles; these apostolic signs were confirmed to us by those who performed the miracles. Here we see that the miracles were observed by the second generation Christians, they were not the ones performing them. The sign miracles seem to be no longer being performed by the second generation Christians. The were on their way out in the time of the second generation audience.

The apostle Paul was therefore not the author of Hebrews.

Another thing we know about the author of Hebrews is that he was familiar with Timothy (13.23).

So it seems like you are saying that there are no more signs, wonders or miracles today.

My answer is God can not be put in a box.

 

[hawkman]

The gift of miracles is no longer operative.

Where is it no longer operative ?

 

[Hawkins]

The author is rather more likely to be Paul who is a renowned Pharisee but not welcome by the Pharisaic authority which controls Judaism and subsequently the Jews back then. This forces Paul to go anonymous or hiring an assistant writer.

Hebrews 2:4 (NASB)
God also bearing witness with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.

Acts 14:3 (NASB)
Therefore they spent a long time there speaking boldly with reliance upon the Lord, who was bearing witness to the word of His grace, granting that signs and wonders be done by their hands.

The two verses echo with each other, more like confirming that the book Hebrews is from Paul.

 

[MisterE]

Where is it no longer operative ?

Miracles were only operative with the 1st Generation. The 2nd Generation did not perform miracles. God still does miracles today but the gift of miracles is not in effect with the 2nd Generation Christians and beyond.

 

[miamited]

This passage speaks to the author of the epistle to the Hebrews.

You all go on ahead. I'm still trying to figure out what is meant by writing, 'this passage speaks 'to' the author of the epistle to the Hebrews. Didn't the author of the epistle to the Hebrews write it? Wouldn't it, therefore, be speaking 'to' those who were going to read his words?

 

[hawkman]

the gift of miracles is not in effect with the 2nd Generation Christians and beyond.

Are there any other gifts that you say to be no longer in effect ?



7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

 

[MisterE]

Are there any other gifts that you say to be no longer in effect ?

Yes, all sign gifts were active with the 1st Generation believers, but there were no sign gifts operating with the 2nd Generation Christians. Just like toward the end of Paul's ministry he was unable to heal. 2 Tim 4. The sign gifts probably ceased with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70. Or, just like the gift of Tongues (not the thing you see today but the genuine gift of Tongues were a sign to the unbelievers (Jews), not the believers. )

It was Christian scholar John Chrysostom (and a well traveled man) who said we do not know what was happening with the Corinthians, since such things do not happen in our live times. This was 4th century. There were no sign gifts operational in the 4th century. They had ceased by this time in Christian history.

 

[hawkman]

Yes, all sign gifts were active with the 1st Generation believers,

As they are today . I have intimate knowledge of the gift of tongues and the gift of word of knowledge .

Just like toward the end of Paul's ministry he was unable to heal.

Truly it was not Paul doing the healing Paul was a vessel of the Holy Spirit , it is the Holy Spirit that is doing the healing .

 

[MisterE]

As they are today . I have intimate knowledge of the gift of tongues and the gift of word of knowledge .

Truly it was not Paul doing the healing Paul was a vessel of the Holy Spirit , it is the Holy Spirit that is doing the healing .

I am not doubting you have an intimate knowledge of tongues, what I am saying is it is not the sign gift experienced in the 1st generation of Christians. The sign gifts ceased with the first generation of believers. Heb 2 states that very thing. I am sorry but it just not a valid gift after the first century.

As far as the gift of word of knowledge, what exactly do you mean by that?

 

[hawkman]

I am not doubting you have an intimate knowledge of tongues, what I am saying is it is not the sign gift experienced in the 1st generation of Christians.

I speak in an unknown tongue as the Holy Spirit takes the utterance . That is the Gift of tongues . The gift of tongues can take on different manifestations but it is the singular gift of tongues . There has been no change to the gift of tongues .

As far as the gift of word of knowledge, what exactly do you mean by that?

A gift of knowing things that can only come by supernatural means , from the Holy Spirit .
Example . I was shown in a dream a man I had never seen before sitting up in bed and next to him was someone covered completely in the bed . I was there to pray for them and comfort them but I could tell the man was ok so it was the person covered up in bed that need the prayer more .
The very next day a member on a Christian forum that I am on changed his avatar to a picture of himself and there he was , much to my shock , the unknown man in my dream ! I contacted him and told him about the dream , he then told me his wife had recently lost a relative she was very close to and it had hit her very hard .

I am sorry but it just not a valid gift after the first century.

The valid gift came from the Holy Spirit and it would take the Holy Spirit to invalidate the gift .

 

[MisterE]

I speak in an unknown tongue as the Holy Spirit takes the utterance . That is the Gift of tongues .

Your position contradicts Heb 2:3, 4 in my opinion. There is no way around it. The gifts ended with the first generation of Christians; that is clear. To me, when Tongues were active in the first century, speaking in Gentile dialects (Acts 2) was its manifestation. And, after Paul quotes Isa 28.11 in 1 Cor 14.22 (The Isaiah passage was the original prediction of Tongues), Paul says that Tongues are for a sign, not for believers, but for unbelievers. The unbelievers were primarily the nation of Israel.

I think you have manufactured your gift of tongues to feel like God is pleased with you. It is entirely psychological (that is why I said that I don't doubt you are speaking in some unknown language that has no objective meaning. Notice what Paul says about this: Brothers and sisters, do not be children in your thinking.

Also, Praying in your spirit is unproductive to your mind. Paul says he would rather pray with his mind also, but as you said, you pray with an unknown tongue. The praying Paul mentions in 1 Cor 14 was in the local church, not at home.

Regarding your dream, what comes to mind with me is Heb 1:1,2
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,, (this would include dreams) 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
The ways God spoke in the OT have been made obsolete by his Son.
Also, if someone's dreams are not 100% accurate, then they were considered a false prophet in the OT.
If you received an inspired revelation from the Holy Spirit, should we include that in the Bible.

I don't fault you for thinking you are actually speaking in tongues like the first generation of Christians did or receiving additional inspired revelation, I just don't think it is spiritually healthy to say you have received additional inspired communication from the Holy Spirit. See what Rev 22.18, 19 says:

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds any words to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

Once again, I haven't presented anything to you that you haven't already responded to elsewhere. Don't feel compelled to respond.

May God richly bless you!!!

 

[hawkman]

Your position contradicts Heb 2:3, 4 in my opinion. There is no way around it.

Of course there is a way around your opinion , you form a new opinion .

The gifts ended with the first generation of Christians; that is clear.

Cessation , I have heard it said before , sadly .

Paul says that Tongues are for a sign, not for believers, but for unbelievers.

Yes , you are preaching to the choir .

I think you have manufactured your gift of tongues to feel like God is pleased with you.

Many years ago I was living a rock&roll lifestyle without God . When I finally gave my life to Christ at church one day as I stood up at the altar this is what happened . I stood there at the altar and words were wanting to come out of my mouth that were NOT my words . I was shocked and thought what is happening to me and I did not let The Holy Spirit have the utterance . I did not understand that I had now received the Gift of tongues when I was born again .

Do I think God is pleased with me at all times , not hardly . But God still uses me and my prayer is he continues to .

Also, Praying in your spirit is unproductive to your mind. Paul says he would rather pray with his mind also, but as you said, you pray with an unknown tongue.

Sure , I pray with my mind often of course and usually before I pray in tongues .

Also, if someone's dreams are not 100% accurate, then they were considered a false prophet in the OT.

You need to know when it is a prophetic dream and when it is not .

I just don't think it is spiritually healthy to say you have received additional inspired communication from the Holy Spirit. See what Rev 22.18, 19 says:

I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds any words to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

Should I deny the work God is doing in my life ?!? No I will not . It is NOT for my glory it is to the glory of God !

Once again, I haven't presented anything to you that you haven't already responded to elsewhere.

Keep reading my responses and maybe they will sink in .

May God richly bless you!!!

He has in ways I would have never imagined .

May God bless you and help you find what you are seeking .

 

[JLB]

The gift of miracles is no longer operative. But, yes, God is still in the miracle business!!!

Maybe you could provide a scripture that says “the gift of miracles” is no longer operative.

 

[MisterE]

Maybe you could provide a scripture that says “the gift of miracles” is no longer operative

I did. Heb 2:3, 4
What this passage tells us is that the first generation of Christians (the Apostles, their disciples, and believers in general who were around when the Apostles were around) confirmed their witness with "signs, wonders, and various miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will."
The first generation, like the Apostles, were the ones who performed these signs. The second generation did not perform them, they only saw them.

 

[JLB]

I did. Heb 2:3, 4
What this passage tells us is that the first generation of Christians (the Apostles, their disciples, and believers in general who were around when the Apostles were around) confirmed their witness with "signs, wonders, and various miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will."
The first generation, like the Apostles, were the ones who performed these signs. The second generation did not perform them, they only saw them.

how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? Hebrews 2:3-4

This scripture plainly teaches that God confirms the Gospel message of salvation with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit.


No where does it say that the gift of miracles is no longer operative.

No where.

 

[MisterE]

how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? Hebrews 2:3-4

I tell you what I am going to do. I am going to give you a short article by Dr. Dan Wallace, who is the top Greek scholar in Evangelicalism today. All I ask you to do is to read his article. It wont take long.

Once you read his article, if you can refute him, then your position is the correct one. I chose this article because it is relatively short, and I didn't want to ask you to read some book. Again, if you refute him, you will be able to refute any argument out here, including mine. Once you finish this article, you will thank me for having you read it.

https://bible.org/article/hebrews-23-4-and-sign-gifts