Heb 2:3, 4 the end of miracles

[hawkman]

Once you have spoken with the Holy Spirit taking the utterance it is game over , there is no going back and saying it is not of God . The words I say are unknown to me till they come out and I hear them , I do not think the words to say them . The Holy Spirit is the one speaking ( taking the utterance ) what needs to be said . Have I for one second thought when I was speaking in tongues that it was gibberish , never . I hear words I have not heard before spoken by the Holy Spirit very often .

Once you read his article, if you can refute him, then your position is the correct one.

Let me tell you it is not "my position " , it is my life with the Holy Spirit .

Denying the power of God is not spiritually healthy .


1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[MisterE]

Let me tell you it is not "my position " , it is my life with the Holy Spirit .

The problem with this is that there is no objective truth. Someone could claim the polar opposite and there would be no way for anyone to decide which is true. For example, what if a spiritually mature believer says he knows that the gift of tongues is not for today because of his life with the Holy Spirit. This dilemma can not be resolved. The only way to show what you believe is biblical is by the objective teachings of the Bible. The article I suggested in my last post is just such a case.

Do not be intimidated if you can't refute Dr. Dan Wallace, he's a scholar of the first order. Read this short article:

https://bible.org/article/hebrews-23-4-and-sign-gifts

 

[miamited]

I'm in the middle here. I agree with hawkman that God is always in the miracle working business among us. It's likely a lot less than some of us give Him credit for, but I believe He still performs miraculous acts among us. However, I also agree with MisterE that the signs and wonders mentioned as a means for those who were being preached the gospel to know that the person doing the preaching was for real, is not still going on today. God performs miracles. It's what He does anytime He works among us even by calling someone to go preach the gospel. But the information in the new covenant mentions the handling of snakes and healing wasting diseases and working of miracles, and I believe that was only for the first generations of Apostles. Surely through Paul and those that he taught and installed as teachers in various places around the known world at that time.

But I do agree that such things aren't what we're looking for to verify for us those who are preaching the gospel today.

 

[hawkman]

The problem with this is that there is no objective truth.

What you and the Dr. offer is an objective theory , it is what you both believe the scriptures say . But many would disagree with the theory you and the Dr. offer . Because they have experiential knowledge given to them by the Holy Spirit .

Someone could claim the polar opposite and there would be no way for anyone to decide which is true.

What I have is called experiential knowledge , knowledge by experience , empirical knowledge of the gift of speaking in tongues .

For example, what if a spiritually mature believer says he knows that the gift of tongues is not for today because of his life with the Holy Spirit. This dilemma can not be resolved.

God holds all truth . God is the truth . The dilemma is solved by God , pray for your answer .

The only way to show what you believe is biblical is by the objective teachings of the Bible.

I believe the bible teaches the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for all believers and followers of Christ . But I can not "make" you believe that .

Do not be intimidated if you can't refute Dr. Dan Wallace, he's a scholar of the first order. Read this short article:

If Dr. Dan Wallace will come on this forum it would be great ! Then he could hear of my experiential knowledge of the gifts of the Holy Spirit that has been given to me . Another one for you MisterE .

A few years ago I was talking with a cousin and he told me about his son being in the army fighting in the middle east .
His son told what job he had , riding in a Humvee manning a 50cal machine gun . It was suggested by his dad that the son needed a lower profile job . So a few months later I was sound asleep one night and I was awakened by these words, " Pray for J***" . It took me a little bit to come to and understand what was going on and I remembered , oh yeah J*** is fighting over in the middle east , so I said a prayer for him and went back to sleep .
Not even thinking again about the prayer one day about two months later I hear about J*** , the Humvee he and his squad was riding in took a direct hit from and roadside IED . Some of his fellow soldiers were killed and J*** had suffered massive head trauma . J*** did survive and has raised a family , praise God !

 

[MisterE]

What you and the Dr. offer is an objective theory

That is what I am saying. Your position holds the Word of God to be theory. That's what I mean when I said there is no objective truth in your theory. Am I understanding you correctly? I am not trying to be divisive. I am just trying to understand why you can't read that short article I sent you and admit what he says is true. What do you find false in this brief article. If you haven't read the article, would you mind reading it and giving me your response. In exchange, I will read a short article that you would want me to read. I am serious.

 

[MisterE]

I'm in the middle here. I agree with hawkman that God is always in the miracle working business among us. It's likely a lot less than some of us give Him credit for, but I believe He still performs miraculous acts among us. However, I also agree with MisterE that the signs and wonders mentioned as a means for those who were being preached the gospel to know that the person doing the preaching was for real, is not still going on today. God performs miracles. It's what He does anytime He works among us even by calling someone to go preach the gospel. But the information in the new covenant mentions the handling of snakes and healing wasting diseases and working of miracles, and I believe that was only for the first generations of Apostles. Surely through Paul and those that he taught and installed as teachers in various places around the known world at that time.

But I do agree that such things aren't what we're looking for to verify for us those who are preaching the gospel today.

Just a quick point of clarification. I too believe that God is in the miracle business. What I say is that believers don't have the sign gifts today. But God is free to perform a miracle today. He doesn't use mediators anymore to perform a miracle.

 

[hawkman]

Am I understanding you correctly?

Hard to tell .

The gift of miracles is no longer operative.

I missed seeing this statement from the Dr. in the link you provided , but what did he say ?

"I do not pretend to think that this sole text solves the problem of the duration of the sign gifts. But whatever one’s views of such gifts, this passage needs to be wrestled with."

In case you missed it before , I have experiential knowledge of the Gift of Tongues . The gift I have is as mentioned in the bible .

I have no reason to wrestle with the scripture in question because I already have the answer , but MisterE you and the Dr. can continue to wrestle with the passage of scripture .

 

[MisterE]

I have no reason to wrestle with the scripture in question because I already have the answer , but @MisterE you and the Dr. can continue to wrestle with the passage of scripture .

I will continue to rely on the Word. I got another question for you. This will probably give me a better understanding of what you have been saying during our exchanges.

Suppose some believer, Mr. A, has a dream and in it the Holy Spirit gives him a revelation that the sign gifts are no longer operational. Of course, your dream would disagree with Mr. A's dream.

Now, I am a third party to you and Mr. A. If I want to know the truth, how would I go about getting the truth so I can know whether or not to seek to speak in tongues or not to speak in tongues.

 

[hawkman]

Suppose some believer, Mr. A, has a dream and in it the Holy Spirit gives him a revelation that the sign gifts are no longer operational.

A word of knowledge from the Holy Spirit is a signs Gift . That is what Mr. A just received in this dream scenario , a word of knowledge .

Mr. A receives a word of knowledge (which is a signs gift ) to tell him the signs gifts are no longer operational .

You lost me on this one . What are you saying ?

 

[MisterE]

A word of knowledge from the Holy Spirit is a signs Gift . That is what Mr. A just received in this dream scenario , a word of knowledge .

Mr. A receives a word of knowledge (which is a signs gift ) to tell him the signs gifts are no longer operational .

You lost me on this one . What are you saying ?

This is the objective truth I was referring to earlier. If Mr. A claims to have a revelation from the Holy Spirit, you have no way of knowing if you should stop speaking in tongues. And not only you, Mr. A needs to get this new revelation out to all believers worldwide to stop speaking in tongues. Ok, what am I overlooking?

 

[hawkman]

I think you have manufactured your gift of tongues to feel like God is pleased with you.

At what point in my Christianity do you think I manufactured the gift of tongues ?

 

[for_his_glory]

The gifts come through the Holy Spirit working through those who have been anointed by the Holy Spirit. These gifts are still active today given to all in whom the Holy Spirit wants to work through. What you are giving is the false teachings of Cessationism that comes against scripture.

1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
1Co 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

These gifts of the Holy Spirit do not cease until the return of Christ.

 

[MisterE]

At what point in my Christianity do you think I manufactured the gift of tongues ?

Probably before you studied the Bible for several years. But after you were made aware of this tongues thing. The practice of the gift of tongues today is purely a psychological practice. So, you could actually practice the gift of tongues long before you have even read the Bible. It is not a spiritual thing. I don't mind that you say you speak in tongues, I am sure you do, but I am sure it is not the gift of tongues of the apostolic age.

Question: Please explain what Paul means when he says tongues is a gift, not for the believer, but for the unbeliever. (1 Cor 14.22)

And finally, just for what it is worth, the next time signs and miracles will be practiced is when the Antichrist shows up, that is how believers are to identify him. 2 Thes 2.9

 

[hawkman]

Probably before you studied the Bible for several years.

So , let me describe what kind of bible student I was . I played in and worked in a rock&roll band , we played in bars and lounges and dance halls . I went to all the big name rock concerts that came around . I bought all their records and sold them too . I lived the lifestyle , drinking , carousing, debauchery , I think you have an imagination so you can guess what went on . Sure at that point I had read some of the bible ,it is a book, and I did read books , but STUDY , no and no desire to .

But after you were made aware of this tongues thing.

I had seen the gift of tongues in evidence in the church where I was born again before I was born again , but did I ever think that was something for me ? NO I did not , are you kidding ? ! ? One more time here is when I received the gift of tongues .
When I finally gave my life to Christ at church one day as I stood up at the altar this is what happened . I stood there at the altar and words were wanting to come out of my mouth that were NOT my words . I was shocked and thought what is happening to me and I did not let The Holy Spirit have the utterance . I did not understand that I had now received the Gift of tongues when I was born again .

The practice of the gift of tongues today is purely a psychological practice.

God is the only one Who can change your mind about this , so be it .

I don't mind that you say you speak in tongues, I am sure you do, but I am sure it is not the gift of tongues of the apostolic age.

That is the only gift of tongues . Do you know of another ?

Question: Please explain what Paul means when he says tongues is a gift, not for the believer, but for the unbeliever. (1 Cor 14.22)

First post the verse so I can see which bible translation you are using and I can work from there .

 

[MisterE]

First post the verse so I can see which bible translation you are using and I can work from there .

It is written in the law (Isa 28.11, 12) 1 Cor 14.21 "By people with strange tongues and by the lips of strangers I will speak to this people, yet not even in this way. will they listen to me." says the Lord. 14.22 So then, tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers.

This gift was designed for the unbelievers and was illustrated in Acts 2. The unbelievers were all the Jews in Jerusalem who rejected Christ. But this gift of tongues was purely evangelistic, i.e., for unbelievers. And of course 3,000 Jews believed saved that day. On this day, keep in mind that what was being spoken were the 15 or so Gentile dialects. Each Jew heard the gospel in his dialect.

You will also need to read Isaiah regarding this gift of tongues. the tongues being spoke in Isa 28 was the Assyrian language. As the Jews were defeated and being brought out under the direction of the Assyrians. As they were walking along, the Jews would hear the language of the Assyrians and it sounded like gibberish to the Jews. There is more info in Isaiah but you probably know all this.

I call the apostolic gift of tongues the gift of gentile dialects. Each believer who had the temporary gift spoke one of many Gentile dialects. Some spoke Chinese, some spoke Egyptian and so on.

After Pentecost, these 3,000 born again Jews left Jerusalem and went back home throughout the Empire. They all explained what happened to the town folks. Thus. the gift of gentile dialects was spread throughout the empire before the church of Corinth as founded.

I have an article I wrote on the Gift of Gentile Dialects that perhaps I will post out here. The problem is it would be too long for this crowd.

 

[hawkman]

The unbelievers were all the Jews in Jerusalem who rejected Christ. But this gift of tongues was purely evangelistic, i.e., for unbelievers. And of course 3,000 Jews believed saved that day. On this day, keep in mind that what was being spoken were the 15 or so Gentile dialects. Each Jew heard the gospel in his dialect.

Yes , at the initial outpouring on Pentecost the gift of tongues use was evangelistic for the unbelievers .

So then, tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers.

No argument from me on this statement you make , it is as the verse said . But there is two parts to the verse and here is the KJV so we a can see it .

Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

The prophesy from the message delivered in tongues is for the believers , most of the time another Christian with the gift of interpretation will give the interpretation of the tongues message but sometimes the gift of interpretation is not needed .

Some spoke Chinese

My wife told me of a Chinese lady missionary visiting here in Alabama at the local church . One of the regular church members spoke a message in tongues during a church service . But problem was after the message in tongues was given no one offered an interpretation . Then the Chinese missionary spoke up and said the message was for her , it was spoken in Cantonese . Part of the message was for her and part was for her church back home in China . She said the message was delivered in perfect Cantonese , the lady that spoke the tongues message in Cantonese spoke Appalachian like me .