Hebrews 6:4-6 what does it mean?

[cyberjosh]

Thanks Javier,

I still await and look forward to your reply on what I said in response to your question of "what was bothering me".

P.S. One thing though that does get my goat is that no one seems to want to take the warnings in the Bible seriously, my commentary belittles them, and on top of that everybody thinks the believer will be always be kept from deception and, subsequently, destruction, yet I have witnessed in friends and even tendencies in myself that if it were not for visible effort I could make one heck of a worldy Christian if I did not call for God's Spirit to fill me every day. I recalled where the Bible spoke of how the flesh is being corrupted daily and I also noticed that when I slipped into the flesh how it seemed to be in worse and worse manifestations and it confirmed that verse to me, that we are being renewed according to the inner man but our evil flesh is being corrupted more and more each day (also see Romans 7) - and I thought to myself one day, I would make one heck of an evil unbeliever if left to my flesh! Worse than even some "normal" unbelievers, because the closer you draw to God the harder the flesh fights back (because it is at enmity with the Spirit - Galatians 5:16-17) in more and more evil and hienous manifestions each time. This is of course is where I say "thank you for Jesus for your deliverance!", but I always wonder what would happen if I didn't fight and persevere every day (which is a temptation sometimes when I feel weak), and I believe that is where the warnings come in. But my point is that I believe that if I gave myself up to that increasinly growing evil which is in my flesh that it could destroy me if I so let it and could (if I ran from God) affect a searing of my conscience (and even Romans 14 talks about the complete destruction of a young believer's conscience). My dad has tragically seen this happen to a close friend who my dad swears was a Christian, and he says God's intervention of chastizement (promised in Hebrews 12) was evident by God's love and judgement being poured out on this man at the same time, all the while he ran farther and farther getting into alchohol, adultery, and soon because of how wasted he became he pretty much went out of his mind and once in that depraved state of mind he stalked our house and we had to notify the police. I hope he comes back to God and that God grants him repentance but I believe with no reservation that if a Christian surrenders to his flesh (which we all do some time or another) repetitively (though - which not every Christian does) that it can destroy you.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Bubba]

Josh,
In my life of faith (31 years) I think more then anything I am more sensitive to my flesh nature as I grow in Christ. Thus if I am not careful, I see myself as not maturing much over these years, but the REALITY is that sin that once didn't bug me now does, so in essence I have.
I found this article, but I do not have the arthur's name, which may help you see a different view of Hebs.6:4.
Blessings, Bubba







Can a Christian Lose Their Salvation?



Can Christians lose their salvation? Many teach Christians can lose their salvation, but does the Bible teach that Christians can lose their salvation? Hebrews 6 is a popular chapter in which those who believe a Christian can lose their salvation use for their support, but Hebrews 6 in reality teaches the very opposite in which a Christian cannot lose their salvation.

Hebrews 6:1-3 "1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press onto maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of instruction about foot washing and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do, if God permits."

Actually looking back in the previous chapter, we see the following: Hebrews 5:12-14: "12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil." Notice that these who are being addressed are said to be infants and in need of milk. And the author in Chapter 6 starts off by saying let us leave the elementary teaching about Christ by pressing onto maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, and of washing of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. The issues are on growing in maturity in Christ and not laying again a foundation of repentance. These are issues that if need to be addressed will be, but for them in which this was written it should have not been the case.

Hebrews 6:4-6 "4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame."

These are the main verses in which causes the confusion whether a Christian can lose his salvation. Verses 4-5 clearly indicate these are true believers in Christ which they have been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift and made partakers of the Holy Spirit. There is no doubt these are Christians which the author is speaking about. The issue then seems to turn in verse 6 where it says 'then have fallen away' indicating they have now lost their salvation or as some will say these have now become 'apostates'.



According to LEXICAL AIDS TO THE NEW TESTAMENT BY DR. SPIROS ZODHIATES concerning the word 'fall away' in Hebrews 6:6 he says: "parapipto means to fall beside, to fall down, or inadvertently. Denoting a side-falling and not a conscious and deceitfulness and falling into sin as would be expressed by 'parabaino' (#3845), to willfully transgress." As to the words 'renew' and 'again' these words are important to know in light of the context. The word 'renew' is the Greek word 'anakainzo' (#340) which means to renew, qualitatively new. In reference to Hebrews 6:6 this would be saying it is impossible for a Christian to have a 'new or qualitatively' different repentance toward Christ, since that would mean Christ's death was not sufficient the first time. In other words this is saying it is impossible for a believer to be born again twice since that would mean the sacrifice of Jesus was not good enough the first time and would have to do it again and thus putting Jesus to open shame. These verses are indicating that a person who is born again does not need to be born again a second time, or that he is going to lose his salvation, but actually that he is secure in Christ. The word 'again' is the Greek word 'palin' (#3825) which means renewal or repetition of the action, again, anew again, further, moreover in turn, on the other hand.



In light of what has been shared here there are a few main points to recap. First, those who have been born again are partakers of the Holy Spirit and in fact are sealed by the Holy Spirit according to Apostle Paul. (Ephesians 1:13) Second, there will be those who fall away or get side tracked as all of us do, but remember the promise of God, "that He who began the good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ." (Philippians 1:6) Thirdly, for those who do fall down and get caught in sins they cannot lose their salvation and regain it again, for that would mean Jesus would then have to die again which contradicts the Scriptures entirely. (Hebrews 9:28, 10:11-12, etc.) This in context proves that Christians cannot lose their salvation and those who use this text are not reading it in context.

Hebrews 6:7-8 "7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; 8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned."

What do these verses mean? Simply these go with the parable which Jesus spoke of called the "Parable of the Seed" in Mark 4:1-20. In verses 13-20, we read the following: "13 And He said to them, "Do you not understand this parable? How will you understand all the parables? 14 "The sower sows the word. 15 "These are the ones who are beside the road where the word is sown; and when they hear, immediately Satan comes and takes away the word which has been sown in them. 16 "In a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; 17 and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away. 18 "And others are the ones on whom seed was sown among the thorns; these are the ones who have heard the word, 19 but the worries of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 20 "And those are the ones on whom seed was sown on the good soil; and they hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold." Here is the contrast in the simplest terms. Those who are sown in good soil will produce good fruit in their lives, and will endure. Those who have no root, those who have only a said faith, those who have unfruitful lives will fall away. Those who are of the good soil will have lives that reflect the tree in which they are rooted in, and those who have no root will, in time, die off and fade away, and eventually be burned up. (Matthew 7:13-27 & 25:31-46)

Hebrews 6:9-12 "9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. 10 For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. 11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12 so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises."

The promises of God are true. The author says we are convinced of better things concerning you, which was those he said "was infants" in Chapter 5 and "need of milk". The author was not worried about their salvation, yet he said they were not walking in maturity but were supposed to be. God is not a God who says see you later alligator, but is a wonderful God who knows our very being and is there with us to the end. (Hebrews 13:5)



Christians cannot lose their salvation because the Scriptures are clear that those who are in Christ have been sealed with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14) and to teach Christians can lose their salvation teaching a works-based gospel message that Paul wrote against in the book of Galatians. We are to realize the full assurance of hope in our lives until the end, and not being sluggish but being imitators of those who set the example of faith and patience.



My prayer is that these verses help you in knowing that in Christ you have eternal life, and will one day be with the Lord.

 

[cyberjosh]

Hebrews 6:4-6 is not my cop out verse. Infact for a long time I wanted to even leave it off my list of support verses until I could determine th rest of Scripture supported the conclusion.

But I must ask you something. What do you make of the warning verses all through out Scripture? Do not recieve the grace of God in vain. Check yourself lest you fall. Make your election sure. Do not destroy your brother. You have fallen from grace.

One day I need to just make a complete list of those verses which suggest falling away or destruction. And my commentary Bible by John MacArthur (though I love him as an author) is inconsistant sometimes. In one place he'll write of the greek behind the word destruction (in a verse applying to judgement of the wicked) and he'll say something like "This refer to complete and utter destruction in which there is no redemption". And then over in Romans chapter 14 the same Greek word is used of destroying a weaker brother in the faith and his commentary says something like, "This must refer to destruction of innocence or rewards...But this cannot refer to..." and thus he skips around it. That's once thing I've noticed about interpreting things in line with OSAS or Persevereance of the Saints: you have to explain a heck of alot more to try to cover a rather simple and striaght forward passage and it dumbs down the punch and purpose of alot of verses when you apply it to something not even relevant (rewards don't have anything to do with the passage of making your brother stumble (skandalizo) unto destruction, when Jesus said "Woe to those through whom offenses (scandalizo) come!"

~Josh

 

[Guest]

Let me ask this then:

What assurance do we have of salvation, if you are suggesting we can actually lose it?

IF we can lose it - on what grounds is it lost? Through sins of commission or ommission? Both?

 

[cyberjosh]

Let me ask this then:

What assurance do we have of salvation, if you are suggesting we can actually lose it?

IF we can lose it - on what grounds is it lost? Through sins of commission or ommission? Both?

Ok. Let me explain to you what I said to my pastor not too long ago on my view of this. Some of this is my personal opinion but I believe it to be within the realm of reason.

This is not exhaustive nor super Comprehensive however it is enough for me to strive for persevereance, setting my eyes on the mark, in the fear of the Lord.

I do believe that one can loose their salvation, and consequently that the unforgivable sin is not restricted just to unbelievers, especially if they blaspheme the Holy Spirit after knowing Him intimately. I do not believe this is somthing you just trip over one day accidentally, but it is a deliberate running from God. I believe that if you begin to backslide and run from the Lord that he will pour our his loving judgement and chastizement (Hebrews 12) on you to try to correct you and discipline you, but if you shrug it off and resist his chastizement your heart can harden. Hebrews warns for each believer to encourage each other TODAY in order to prevent anyone from developing a hard heart.

And I also believe that the bible speaks of ap oint of no return, though most believers would think this applies to unbelievers only. Certainly this applies to the unregenerate but the Bible says that one can have a seared concience and them being past feeling, and I believe this can happen to a believer who develops a hard heart which acts as a callous (a.k.a. protecting against feeling/being past feeling) heart hearts prevent God's molding work. And when you sear something as with a hot iron it leaves a scar, scars never go away. And Romans 14 warns against destroying (like hwen you destroy skin my scorching it) a weaker brother's concience (as is with a hot iron). Though this is not something that can happen in a one time event I believe that the process of running and heardening is prolonged and will only happen after God's repetetive loving chastizement (Hebrews 12) but if you finally trample underfoot the priceless blood of Jesus (Hebrews 10) then there is no longer any popitiation for sins and you have been seared beyond redemption for it is impossible to renew them to repentance if they reject the one and only savior Jesus Christ.

----------

Now I do however believe that this seems to be a pattern mainly in those who are in the milk of the word (Hebrews 5) or weak (Romans 14) and I told my pastor as much - that it seems that those who are most succeptable to falling away are those who are not strong in their faith and because of it they could be led away by deceptive doctrines (1 Tim. 4:1) or have their consciences destroyed/seared (Romans 14), but nonetheless they are saved, we cannot neglect the weak bretheren but rather we are told to be careful to build them up- and why do you think we are given such an admonishment/warning? I believe though that when the Bible says "Make your election sure" that we can do it! I do believe in security for those who have firmly decided ahead of time to persevere. Paul did and he was able to say before he died with confidence "I have fought the good fight." Even Peter during Jesus' ministry determined not to forsake Jesus even though for a while all his disciples were made to stumble (Peter especially - when he denied him) - but nonetheless he persevered through it and he dusted himself off. But what I'm talking about is when some of Jesus' disciples left in John 6 and Jesus turned to his 12 and gave them a direct invitation to leave saying "Would you also like to go?" but Peter said "Master where would we go?". He determined to follow Jesus and therein lies his security, hope, and joy! I only ask that we be considerate to uplift weaker brothers (Hebrews 3 & Romans 14) so that they do not develop a hard heart so that they may mature in knpowledge to a point where they can make their election sure. Lieing to weak brethen that what they do can never seperate them from Christ sets them up for the scandalization and offense of Romans 12 and it could damge them irreperably. Please do not do this to our brethren who need to be admonished in the truth!

This is my view in a nutshell.

~Josh

 

[Guest]

Romans 8

Nothing can Seperate those that are in Christ Jesus. NOTHING.

Hebrews addresses a primarily Jewish audience. An audience that would have been waiting for a Saviour, and audience that was convinced that God was bringing them a Saviour, an audience that heard the testimony of Christ Jesus.

The first chapter of Hebrews outlines the case for Jesus Christ - it demonostrates his superiority to all things created.

This is the audience that Hebrews is addressing - people that know they need a Saviour, but reject Christ Jesus as that saviour.

The warnings in Hebrews is to not reject Christ.

 

[cyberjosh]

Romans 8

Nothing can Seperate those that are in Christ Jesus. NOTHING.

Hebrews addresses a primarily Jewish audience. An audience that would have been waiting for a Saviour, and audience that was convinced that God was bringing them a Saviour, an audience that heard the testimony of Christ Jesus.

The first chapter of Hebrews outlines the case for Jesus Christ - it demonostrates his superiority to all things created.

This is the audience that Hebrews is addressing - people that know they need a Saviour, but reject Christ Jesus as that saviour.

The warnings in Hebrews is to not reject Christ.

I honestly think our discussions might be more productive if you addressed my last post point-by-point, being considerate of my sincere concerns by responding with strong yet sincere responses. Point by point advice or correction is FAR more edifying and effective than presenting a general counter-arguement. I tried to deal with the forensics of faith and sin in life and see how things are affected on an individual level. Please address all my points in my last post. I would appreciate that.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Bubba]

I believe the Judgment Seat is the making known all that Christ has accomplished through the Cross. Only, the religious minded create a literal throne of judgment on the performance of the believer. In the case of the passage of Romans 14, Paul is alluding to a time when all that seems to be genuine in appearance will be seen for what it truly is. “Tares and wheat†grow together in the visible church, but a day will come when those who appear “godlyâ€Â, “religiousâ€Â, “god fearingâ€Â, “righteousâ€Â, etc will at the day of judgment be seen in the light of who belongs to Christ and who does not. This will be the true revealing of what Jesus accomplished on the Cross for those who believe.
Each man and woman will stand on that day in order for “…each one may be recompensed for the deeds in the body, whether good or badâ€Â. Only those who are able to stand before God in the righteousness of Christ are able stand confident at the “Bema Seatâ€Â. As in the Olympic Games the rewards has nothing to do with a public exposure of faults, but of who will receive the “crown of laurelâ€Â. Remember that “true goodâ¬Â is God’s workmanship, for “there is none good, but Godâ€Â.
Blessings Bubba

 

[Guest]

I honestly think our discussions might be more productive if you addressed my last post point-by-point, being considerate of my sincere concerns by responding with strong yet sincere responses. Point by point advice or correction is FAR more edifying and effective than presenting a general counter-arguement. I tried to deal with the forensics of faith and sin in life and see how things are affected on an individual level. Please address all my points in my last post. I would appreciate that.

God Bless,

~Josh

Perhaps I can ask for you to return the request? I asked specific questions and did not receive specifi answers, point by point.

Also, my comment was to help you understand the audience the the author of Hebrews was addressing. To best understand Hebrews, one needs to understand who it was being written to.

 

[Bubba]

God's Way of Accepting People, found in Romans 3 (CEV):

21 Now we see how God does make us acceptable to him. The Law and the Prophets tell how we become acceptable, and it isn't by obeying the Law of Moses.
22 God treats everyone alike. He accepts people only because they have faith in Jesus Christ.
23 All of us have sinned and fallen short of God's glory.
24 But God treats us much better than we deserve, and because of Christ Jesus, he freely accepts us and sets us free from our sins.
25-26 God sent Christ to be our sacrifice. Christ offered his life's blood, so that by faith in him we could come to God. And God did this to show that in the past he was right to be patient and forgive sinners. This also shows that God is right when he accepts people who have faith in Jesus.
27 What is left for us to brag about? Not a thing! Is it because we obeyed some law? No! It is because of faith.
28 We see that people are acceptable to God because they have faith, and not because they obey the Law.
29 Does God belong only to the Jews? Isn't he also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, he is!
30 There is only one God, and he accepts Gentiles as well as Jews, simply because of their faith.
31 Do we destroy the Law by our faith? Not at all! We make it even more powerful.

 

[jgredline]

Hebrews 6:4-6 is not my cop out verse. Infact for a long time I wanted to even leave it off my list of support verses until I could determine th rest of Scripture supported the conclusion.

But I must ask you something. What do you make of the warning verses all through out Scripture? Do not recieve the grace of God in vain. Check yourself lest you fall. Make your election sure. Do not destroy your brother. You have fallen from grace.

One day I need to just make a complete list of those verses which suggest falling away or destruction. And my commentary Bible by John MacArthur (though I love him as an author) is inconsistant sometimes. In one place he'll write of the greek behind the word destruction (in a verse applying to judgement of the wicked) and he'll say something like "This refer to complete and utter destruction in which there is no redemption". And then over in Romans chapter 14 the same Greek word is used of destroying a weaker brother in the faith and his commentary says something like, "This must refer to destruction of innocence or rewards...But this cannot refer to..." and thus he skips around it. That's once thing I've noticed about interpreting things in line with OSAS or Persevereance of the Saints: you have to explain a heck of alot more to try to cover a rather simple and striaght forward passage and it dumbs down the punch and purpose of alot of verses when you apply it to something not even relevant (rewards don't have anything to do with the passage of making your brother stumble (skandalizo) unto destruction, when Jesus said "Woe to those through whom offenses (scandalizo) come!"

~Josh

Folks...Here in lies one of the problems....and the reason I decided to learn Greek....
It is ''dangerous to pick single Greek words like destroy for example and apply a dictionary or concordance to it because you will get multiple meanings of the same word.....The Greek language and I am speaking of biblical Greek is built around root words and tenses.... The Grammar is everything in this language....This is the only way one can get the true context of the scripture....The Greek also uses NO INDEFINITE articles like the English does, so when the definate articles are there, pay attention, because it just changed the meaning of the verse or section of scripture....

Now is this a defense of John MacArthur?...No, there is only so much commentary you can write in a study bible....For most folks, it is enough to take the man at his word, for he has proven over time that he is the real deal and I say this not because I went to Masters college, but because time has proven him.....

Ironically the commentary that is closest to the Greek regarding Hebrews 6:4-6 is the NIV bible.... :o

NIV..... It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

1550TR....αδυνατον γαρ τους απαξ φωτισθεντας γευσαμενους τε της δωρεας της επουρανιου και μετοχους γενηθεντας πνευματος αγιου
και καλον γευσαμενους θεου ρημα δυναμεις τε μελλοντος αιωνος
και παραπεσοντας παλιν ανακαινιζειν εις μετανοιαν ανασταυρουντας εαυτοις τον υιον του θεου και παραδειγματιζοντας

Folks make assumptions based on this text that it is speaking of born again Christians when according to this Greek text, it does not show it...This section of scripture is speaking of apostate Jews....Jews who went back to their old ways...Jews who where trying to be Christ followers but were not born again...Go back and read chapters 3-7 and it is clear, it is speaking of false believers.....

Was Judas ever born again? Did he not partake or share in the upper room? ...Did he not dip his bread in the cup??? I know he did not take of the cup as he turned Jesus over to be nailed to the tree, but the fact is he did share and or partook of many events with Jesus, yet we know he is on his way to hell....... :o

 

[cyberjosh]

Folks make assumptions based on this text that it is speaking of born again Christians when according to this Greek text, it does not show it...This section of scripture is speaking of apostate Jews....Jews who went back to their old ways...Jews who where trying to be Christ followers but were not born again...Go back and read chapters 3-7 and it is clear, it is speaking of false believers.....

If you would be so courteous could you higlight in specific where you believe it transitions from talking to believers to unbelievers and why you think so? I have read those chapters time and time again and never reached that conclusion. Also the ending of chapter 5 seems to obviously address them as believers who are still in the milk of the word and who need to be further admonished. Why should they have been teachers by then if they weren't even saved in the first place? Shouldn't he have said, "You should have heeded the Gospel by now" (speaking of being saved) if he is speaking to unbelievers? You have to be saved first to begin to excell in the "meat" that he wants them to partake of.

P.S. I plan to PM you and start back at the beginning where you asked me "what was bothering me". I have a few things I would like to discuss with you one on one. I'll get to it later hopefully.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[jgredline]

If you would be so courteous could you higlight in specific where you believe it transitions from talking to believers to unbelievers and why you think so? I have read those chapters time and time again and never reached that conclusion. Also the ending of chapter 5 seems to obviously address them as believers who are still in the milk of the word and who need to be further admonished. Why should they have been teachers by then if they weren't even saved in the first place? Shouldn't he have said, "You should have heeded the Gospel by now" (speaking of being saved) if he is speaking to unbelievers? You have to be saved first to begin to excell in the "meat" that he wants them to partake of.

P.S. I plan to PM you and start back at the beginning where you asked me "what was bothering me". I have a few things I would like to discuss with you one on one. I'll get to it later hopefully.

God Bless,

~Josh

Josh
I will be more than happy to spend the time on this through pm or however you like....In fact I think allot of you and so many ways you remind me of me when I was young... it will be my pleasure...In fact, I will be more than happy to PM you my number so we can discuss this over the phone....let me know...what is best for you...

As for this Hebrews I started to write ''my'' commentary on this and will post it up sometime this weekend...

Blessings,
javier