Bible Study Heidi - a question about the Jews and the Ten Commandments

[SputnikBoy]

Someone may have brought up this query before, perhaps many times, but it just occurred to me recently.

Heidi, you keep making reference to the fact that those who continue to follow the OT Laws ‘like the Jews’ (specifically in regard to the Sabbath) are lost …is that correct? Now, if we’re to suppose that the Ten Commandments WERE given specifically to the Jews, i.e. NOT to the Gentiles, then why are the Jews now lost for being obedient to the Sabbath command?

You see, God commanded obedience to the commandments by the Jews and ALL of their generations to follow. That appears to mean – and by all means correct me if I’m wrong - from then on until forever …right? Based on this instruction from God, what would be the point of continued obedience by the Jews to God’s commands FOREVER as long as they’re lost anyway? And, even if the Jewish Nation WERE to accept Jesus as their Savior tomorrow, wouldn’t the instruction from God concerning ALL of their generations (of Jews) still be in effect? Wouldn’t Christian Jews still be keeping the Sabbath commandment (as well as the others) anyway?

Maybe I’m not seeing something here that may be glaringly obvious. I hope that I’ve managed to articulate my question/s in a manner that is understood. If you, Heidi, or anyone else, can respond to this query we can take it from there.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Galations 3

 

[cj]

Re: Heidi - a question about the Jews and the Ten Commandmen

Someone may have brought up this query before, perhaps many times, but it just occurred to me recently.

Heidi, you keep making reference to the fact that those who continue to follow the OT Laws ‘like the Jews’ (specifically in regard to the Sabbath) are lost …is that correct? Now, if we’re to suppose that the Ten Commandments WERE given specifically to the Jews, i.e. NOT to the Gentiles, then why are the Jews now lost for being obedient to the Sabbath command?

You see, God commanded obedience to the commandments by the Jews and ALL of their generations to follow. That appears to mean – and by all means correct me if I’m wrong - from then on until forever …right? Based on this instruction from God, what would be the point of continued obedience by the Jews to God’s commands FOREVER as long as they’re lost anyway? And, even if the Jewish Nation WERE to accept Jesus as their Savior tomorrow, wouldn’t the instruction from God concerning ALL of their generations (of Jews) still be in effect? Wouldn’t Christian Jews still be keeping the Sabbath commandment (as well as the others) anyway?

Maybe I’m not seeing something here that may be glaringly obvious. I hope that I’ve managed to articulate my question/s in a manner that is understood. If you, Heidi, or anyone else, can respond to this query we can take it from there.

First off,.... there is no such thing as a "Christian Jew."

Secondly,..... the Jews had the ordinances and sacrifices that covered their relationship to God and His commandments.

These ordinances and sacrifices have today been superseeded by Christ Himself, He who is the reality of these commandments, ordinances, and sacrifices.

See Sputnikboy, God is not after the superficial, He is after the Reality.

He is not after "a people", but desires "many sons."


Unless one sees what God desires, and by this I mean God's original desire upon which all others sit, then one will forever be drifting; either in an apostate institution or individually from one apostate institution to another.


God says in His word that His people lose restraint for lack of vision.

It is our vision that keeps us, and if we do not have the one vision of God then we will be unrestrained in our living and being.


In love,
cj

 

[Heidi]

Re: Heidi - a question about the Jews and the Ten Commandmen

Someone may have brought up this query before, perhaps many times, but it just occurred to me recently.

Heidi, you keep making reference to the fact that those who continue to follow the OT Laws ‘like the Jews’ (specifically in regard to the Sabbath) are lost …is that correct? Now, if we’re to suppose that the Ten Commandments WERE given specifically to the Jews, i.e. NOT to the Gentiles, then why are the Jews now lost for being obedient to the Sabbath command?

You see, God commanded obedience to the commandments by the Jews and ALL of their generations to follow. That appears to mean – and by all means correct me if I’m wrong - from then on until forever …right? Based on this instruction from God, what would be the point of continued obedience by the Jews to God’s commands FOREVER as long as they’re lost anyway? And, even if the Jewish Nation WERE to accept Jesus as their Savior tomorrow, wouldn’t the instruction from God concerning ALL of their generations (of Jews) still be in effect? Wouldn’t Christian Jews still be keeping the Sabbath commandment (as well as the others) anyway?

Maybe I’m not seeing something here that may be glaringly obvious. I hope that I’ve managed to articulate my question/s in a manner that is understood. If you, Heidi, or anyone else, can respond to this query we can take it from there.

You miss the point that "love is the fulfillment of the law." I don't have to worry about not keeping the commandments if God has cleaned my cup from the inside with his forgiveness which I then give to thers. I will then not want to steal from him, murder him, lie to him, commit adultery against him, etc. "For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks." Jesus's love for us fulfilled the law for us and once he gives it to us, we automatically keep the Ten Commandments.

So we do not come to law to obey the law, we simply come to Christ for forgiveness and once we receive it, we give it to others.

A good example is someone who watches pornography. He can turn it off because he knows he's not "supposed" to watch it. But inside his heart he still wants to, so eventually he'll return to watching it. This is trying to clean the cup from the outside instead of asking Jesus to clean it from the inside by relacing his lust with love and forgiveness. That love then becomes far more satisfying than the lust he once engaged in. Then he will automatically turn off the pornography because he's no longer interested in it. It won't be an effort for him to turn it off. It will be a response from his heart. Then eventually pornography will look disgusting in comparison to the love and forgiveness he feels inside.

And this is how become in the world but not of it. The more love and forgiveness we have inside, the less worldly things will interest us and we will want more love and forgiveness instead.

 

[SputnikBoy]

All well and good, Heidi ...but what about the Jews that you keep saying are lost? God gave them (hypothetically) commandments that were to be kept through all of their generations. That includes the Sabbath commandment. As long as they are lost anyway, do they then ignore that command from God that was to apply through all of their generations? Was God in serious error having given it to them in the first place, knowing that they would reject Jesus? Where DO they stand ...in your opinion?

 

[cubedbee]

Re: Heidi - a question about the Jews and the Ten Commandmen

First off,.... there is no such thing as a "Christian Jew."

That's ridiculous, considering I know two personally and know of many others. And also considering that every single book of the New Testament was written by Christian Jews.

 

[Heidi]

All well and good, Heidi ...but what about the Jews that you keep saying are lost? God gave them (hypothetically) commandments that were to be kept through all of their generations. That includes the Sabbath commandment. As long as they are lost anyway, do they then ignore that command from God that was to apply through all of their generations? Was God in serious error having given it to them in the first place, knowing that they would reject Jesus? Where DO they stand ...in your opinion?

Romans 11:11, "Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the gentiles to make Israel envious."

Romans 11:26, "For Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the gentiles has come in.

You, hopefully, know that the Jews do not believe that Jesus is the messiah. And if you read all the gospels you will see that Jesus tells them, "Because you are unable to understand what I say, your father is the devil, the father of lies."

Jesus also said; "I have come to make the blind see and those who see become blind." As the above passages tell us, that because of their transgressions, God is blinding the eyes of the Jews to who He really is to make them jealous until the full number of the gentiles has come in.

Therefore, not only can the Jews not know that Jesus is th messiah, they are still relying on rituals and regulations, thinking that by doing that, they will be saved instead of coming to Christ for salvation. And since God has hardened their hearts for a while to make them jealous, they are not capable of understanding the heart of the law, but only the letter. and that is why they see the Sabbath as a day of the week instead of as Jesus Christour Lord.

 

[SputnikBoy]

...and that is why they see the Sabbath as a day of the week instead of as Jesus Christ our Lord.

But again, my point is that they were told by God to observe His commands FOREVER, not just until the coming Messiah. And, OF COURSE the Sabbath is a day of the week! Just because you keep throwing up a brutalized interpretation of Hebrews 4:1-9 doesn't change that fact.

 

[Heidi]

Sputnik, do you know why God sent His Son? Do you know that the coming of the messiah was prophecied all through the OT? Why do you think that was? God knew that the Jews would not obey the Sabbath or be able to keep any of the laws which is why He knew we needed a redeemer. The Jews were repeatedly disobedient and used the Pentateuch as Jesus says as; "Teachings that are but rules taught by men." They didn't understand the heart of the law, only the letter, and they still don't.

If God meant that we were supposed to obey the laws forever, then why did he send us a redeemer? :o Why did he send Jesus to fulfill the law for us? :o There are too many questions you haven't answered before you posted.

The Jews interpreted the Sabbath as a day of the week which is why they were angry at Jesus for healing on the Sabbath. But Jesus said that he was "Lord of the Sabbath" which thus means that He dictates what the Sabbath means. Jesus showed us what the Sabbath rest means which is to come to Him for rest which is why he healed on the Sabbath. But the Jews are still trying to earn salvation by obeying laws, instead of "entering God's rest" by coming to Christ for rest. Jesus said; "Come to me and I will give you rest."

But the Jews think rest means resting from ungodly work all week or resting from Godly work during the week, neither of which, the bible tells us to do.

So I'm sorry that you don't understand what Hebrews means by "Entering God's rest." if you didn, then you would know that the Sabbath is jesus Christ our Lord. Again, Jesus fulfilled all of the laws which includes the Sabbath law, not just some of them. So since you don't understand this, then you and I should simply agree to disagree.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Do you not realize that God blessed and sanctified the 7th-day BEFORE humankind had sinned? Hundreds of years before the first Jew? Therefore, at the time of the 7th-day being set apart by God, there was yet no need for a Savior. So, why the need for a Sabbath then based on your reasoning? Hmmm

Are you going to say that God knew in advance that humankind WOULD sin, that He knew in advance that we WOULD require a Savior, that there were two possible OUTCOMES for humankind, that there were two possible OPTIONS for humankind, that there would be a LITERAL Sabbath for some future Jewish Nation and a SYMBOLIC Sabbath for some future followers of a Savior who was yet not required ...? Gets a little tricky, doesn't it, Heidi?

 

[Heidi]

Do you not realize that God blessed and sanctified the 7th-day BEFORE humankind had sinned? Hundreds of years before the first Jew? Therefore, at the time of the 7th-day being set apart by God, there was yet no need for a Savior. So, why the need for a Sabbath then based on your reasoning? Hmmm

Are you going to say that God knew in advance that humankind WOULD sin, that He knew in advance that we WOULD require a Savior, that there were two possible OUTCOMES for humankind, that there were two possible OPTIONS for humankind, that there would be a LITERAL Sabbath for some future Jewish Nation and a SYMBOLIC Sabbath for some future followers of a Savior who was yet not required ...? Gets a little tricky, doesn't it, Heidi?

Exactly. Jesus was already with God in the beginning and God's plan was already conceived just like all of us who were chosen before the creation of the world. And that is precisely why the seventh day is so important. What do you think is so important about rest? Why honor one day to rest? Do you think laziness is honored by God? :o Or do you think God wants us to honor him on only one day? :o This of course contradicts the bible so that cannot be what rest means.

But the bible tells us what rest means. It is always used to characterize the messiah. That is what "Entering God's rest" means and is also what Christ means by coming to Him for rest. But again, those who have not entered God's rest will not understand this at all. They again can only understand the letter of the law as Jesus says are; "Teachings that are but rules taught by men." Those people don't understand the heart of the law.

Sorry, but there were not 2 possible outcomes. God didn't just "wing it" if we spolied his plan. His plan is much bigger than ours. We do not control the universe and God is only along for the ride. God planned our redemption from the beginning because he knew that the fall was a foregone conclusion and had to happen. man had to fall because otherwise, he would feel as omnipotent as God is. The pride of man is already way over the top even with sin! But if Eve hadn't sinnsed, then man's arrogance would have been delusional.

Sorry, but God is no dummy. He wasn't in the dark about our nature at all.

 

[SputnikBoy]

While human beings remain on this earth, Heidi, human beings are what we are. Human beings require a physical break every week from the 5 or 6 days of work most of them are REQUIRED to do. The 7th-day Sabbath has a two-fold function. It enables human beings to physically rest from their labors and it also enables them to worship God.

Human beings are NOT God and they have specific needs such as food, water, air, and a period of time from their weekly schedule for ACTUAL physical rest. God in His wisdom knew this and this is why human beings STILL require a weekly Sabbath ...preferably on the day He asked us to keep! Why do you feel the need to keep fighting against this, Heidi ...do you begrudge human beings taking a physical break from their labors?

 

[Heidi]

While human beings remain on this earth, Heidi, human beings are what we are. Human beings require a physical break every week from the 5 or 6 days of work most of them are REQUIRED to do. The 7th-day Sabbath has a two-fold function. It enables human beings to physically rest from their labors and it also enables them to worship God.

Human beings are NOT God and they have specific needs such as food, water, air, and a period of time from their weekly schedule for ACTUAL physical rest. God in His wisdom knew this and this is why human beings STILL require a weekly Sabbath ...preferably on the day He asked us to keep! Why do you feel the need to keep fighting against this, Heidi ...do you begrudge human beings taking a physical break from their labors?

Do you not rest other days of the week? So what does it matter which day we rest if this rest is only for taking a breather and not as a holy matter?

Do you seriously think that Hebrews 4:1-9 is talking about relaxing on Sundays???? :o Do you think that God has given us the Sabbath as a commandment because he honors taking it easy above all other days??? Do you not think He already knows that it is man's nature to take it easy and requires little effort? :o If so, then you grossly underestimate the depth of the words in the bible. Again, you need to read the bible over and over and as Paul says, use spiritual wisdom, not human wisdom to understand it.

 

[SputnikBoy]

While human beings remain on this earth, Heidi, human beings are what we are. Human beings require a physical break every week from the 5 or 6 days of work most of them are REQUIRED to do. The 7th-day Sabbath has a two-fold function. It enables human beings to physically rest from their labors and it also enables them to worship God.

Human beings are NOT God and they have specific needs such as food, water, air, and a period of time from their weekly schedule for ACTUAL physical rest. God in His wisdom knew this and this is why human beings STILL require a weekly Sabbath ...preferably on the day He asked us to keep! Why do you feel the need to keep fighting against this, Heidi ...do you begrudge human beings taking a physical break from their labors?

Do you not rest other days of the week? So what does it matter which day we rest if this rest is only for taking a breather and not as a holy matter?

But it IS also a holy matter as I said above. It's also a day of worship.

Do you seriously think that Hebrews 4:1-9 is talking about relaxing on Sundays???? :o

I feel like bringing in a dozen rolling-on-the-floor-laughing-with-hysteria smiley faces at this point but I won't because that would be uncouth. Heidi, my friend ...let me get this straight ...all the time (the weeks and months) that we've been debating these 'Sabbath issues' with you, you've been assuming that we're supporting SUNDAY as the Sabbath commandment? Hmmm ...that really does change everything. This is the second time in the past 24 hours that you've equated the Sabbath-command with Sunday. So, your argument is toward mainstream Christians believing that it is THEY who are the Sabbatarians in question ...correct? Furthermore, you equate Christian Sabbatarians with the Jews. So ...you believe that the Jews also keep Sunday ...right?

Do you think that God has given us the Sabbath as a commandment because he honors taking it easy above all other days??? Do you not think He already knows that it is man's nature to take it easy and requires little effort? :o If so, then you grossly underestimate the depth of the words in the bible. Again, you need to read the bible over and over and as Paul says, use spiritual wisdom, not human wisdom to understand it.

I'm sorry, Heidi. Until you figure out the issue we're debating it's impossible to continue. Which day is the Sabbath, Heidi ...?

 

[Brother Ian]

If if someone could keep the Law, the Law never saved anyone. Jesus clearly taught He came to fulfil the Law.

I would recommend studying the book of Romans. It presents key, fundamental truths of Christianity.

 

[Heidi]

If if someone could keep the Law, the Law never saved anyone. Jesus clearly taught He came to fulfil the Law.

I would recommend studying the book of Romans. It presents key, fundamental truths of Christianity.

Amen! :D

 

[Solo]

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. Ephesians 2:4-22

 

[SputnikBoy]

If someone could keep the Law, the Law never saved anyone.

How were those in the OT saved, Ian? Were they saved by keeping the Law or were they saved through grace ...same as us?

Jesus clearly taught He came to fulfil the Law.

Jesus clearly taught that He had NOT come to destroy the Law and The Prophets. So, when He continues with "but to fulfill them" what does He mean? He obviously isn't contradicting Himself so 'fulfill' cannot mean to take them (the Law and The Prophets) away, can it?

What it DOES mean is that in His perfection Jesus kept the spirit of the Law as it should be kept. He fulfilled it (within Himself) indicating that having done so made Him a perfect example for us. We also need to bear in mind the sacrificial system that had pointed to the coming Messiah. Jesus was also about to replace that system by the shedding of His own blood.

Would Jesus have recommended to His followers that, from now on, you can toss out the commandments of my Father ...those commandments to which I (your example) have remained faithful all of my life? Of course He wouldn't. He had fulfilled them with His perfect life. Modern Christianity with its 'anything goes' type of belief system has much to answer for. The truth of the matter is that none of you 'Law abrogators' have ANY problem with NINE of the commandments. That's the truth, isn't it?

The bottom line is that you must all defend the 'Sunday-Sabbath' concept to the hilt. The Sabbath-command is the ONLY reason that we're having this debate. The so-called abolition of ALL of the commandments is merely a red herring.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Ephesians 2:4-22. . .(15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances . . .

And what WERE the law of commandments found in the ordinances, Solo ...the Big Ten?

 

[Solo]

Ephesians 2:4-22. . .(15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances . . .

And what WERE the law of commandments found in the ordinances, Solo ...the Big Ten?

Believers are no longer under the bondage to sin under the Law while in the flesh. A new creature is born when the new birth of God takes place. We are no longer under bondage to the flesh, and that which is born of God does not sin. Simple.