Heroes of the Faith Speak - THE LAW

[herald]

Martin Luther - "The first duty of the gospel preacher is to declare God's law and show the nature of sin, because it will act as a schoolmaster and bring him to everlasting life which is in Jesus Christ."

John Wesley - "Before I preach love, mercy and grace, I must preach sin, law, and judgement."

Wesley, later, advised a friend to "Preach 90 percent law and 10 percent grace."

Charles Spurgeon - "They will never accept grace, until they tremble before a just and holy law."

Charles Finney - "Evermore the law must prepare the way for the gospel; to overlook this in instructing souls, is almost certain to result in false hope, the introduction of a false standard of Christian experience, and to fill the Church with false converts."

John Wycliffe - "The highest service to which a man may attain on earth, is to preach the law of God."

D.L. Moody - "God, being a perfect God, had to give a perfect law, and the law was given not to save men, but to measure them."

 

[Solo]

Good post. I particularly like D.L. Moody's quote:

D.L. Moody - "God, being a perfect God, had to give a perfect law, and the law was given not to save men, but to measure them."

It is obvious that God's law is righteous and that man is not; therefore God's grace was necessary in order that man might be redeemed from sin and death.

 

[xicali]

Good post. I particularly like D.L. Moody's quote:

D.L. Moody - "God, being a perfect God, had to give a perfect law, and the law was given not to save men, but to measure them."

It is obvious that God's law is righteous and that man is not; therefore God's grace was necessary in order that man might be redeemed from sin and death.

Solo, good answer!

u r Blessed


xicali

 

[SputnikBoy]

So, at what point in history then did Christians decide to throw out God's Law ...is this a relatively recent concept?

 

[SputnikBoy]

Oh, and incidentally, Solo ...since the beginning of time human beings have ALWAYS been saved by grace. This is not a NT phenomenon. So, what is it about OT grace and NT grace that somehow gives Christians the arrogance to toss out the Law?

 

[wavy]

good comments, sputnik.

 

[Solo]

The Law is not tossed out. The Law is the righteousness of God. Sinful man has never been able to keep the Law, and that is why God's grace was given through faith in Jesus Christ.

The Hebrew word for grace in the Old Testament is tranliterated CHen and means:

1. favour, grace, charm
a. favour, grace, elegance
b. favour, acceptance

This word was used 67 times in the 39 books of the Old Testament.

The Greek word for grace in the New Testament is transliterated Charis and means:

1. grace
a. that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm,
loveliness: grace of speech

2. good will, loving-kindness, favour
a. of the merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence
upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeps, strengthens, increases
them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to
the exercise of the Christian virtues

3. what is due to grace
a. the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine
grace
b. the token or proof of grace, benefit
I. a gift of grace
II. benefit, bounty

4. thanks, (for benefits, services, favours), recompense, reward

This word was used 147 times in the 27 books of the New Testament.


If grace was able through the law to save mankind, then Jesus Christ would not have had to be crucified on the cross. God would not have had to become Jesus Christ in the flesh, die on the cross, resurrect from the dead, and ascend into heaven. If it was able for men to keep the Law of God in their flesh, then Jesus would not have had to come to bestow his faith by grace to the hearers and doers of the Word of God.

If mankind could have been born again without Jesus fulfilling the Law, then God would have made it possible to be born again with Jesus' death on the cross, and his subsequent resurrection. Without the work of grace on the cross, no man would have been able to experience the grace of God. The grace of God exists solely because Jesus Christ gave it.

 

[wavy]

#1.Sinful man has never been able to keep the Law, and that is why God's grace was given through faith in Jesus Christ.

#2.If grace was able through the law to save mankind, then Jesus Christ would not have had to be crucified on the cross.

#3.If it was able for men to keep the Law of God in their flesh, then Jesus would not have had to come to bestow his faith by grace to the hearers and doers of the Word of God.

By the three statements above you have made I am under the assumption that you think that in order for "the law" to still be in effect, one must keep it perfectly. I find that to be error, found nowhere in scripture.

If mankind could have been born again without Jesus fulfilling the Law,

What does that mean to you when the bible says that Messiah came to fulfill the Torah? What role does that play in our salvation? Back it up with scripture please.

Without the work of grace on the cross, no man would have been able to experience the grace of God. The grace of God exists solely because Jesus Christ gave it.

So you are saying Yahweh only had grace after Messiah? Doesn't that contradict the points you made about his grace in the Tanach? I thought Yahweh did not change (Malachi 3:6). Are you saying he began to have grace only after the cross?

 

[Solo]

#1.Sinful man has never been able to keep the Law, and that is why God's grace was given through faith in Jesus Christ.

#2.If grace was able through the law to save mankind, then Jesus Christ would not have had to be crucified on the cross.

#3.If it was able for men to keep the Law of God in their flesh, then Jesus would not have had to come to bestow his faith by grace to the hearers and doers of the Word of God.

By the three statements above you have made I am under the assumption that you think that in order for "the law" to still be in effect, one must keep it perfectly. I find that to be error, found nowhere in scripture.

If mankind could have been born again without Jesus fulfilling the Law,

What does that mean to you when the bible says that Messiah came to fulfill the Torah? What role does that play in our salvation? Back it up with scripture please.

Without the work of grace on the cross, no man would have been able to experience the grace of God. The grace of God exists solely because Jesus Christ gave it.

So you are saying Yahweh only had grace after Messiah? Doesn't that contradict the points you made about his grace in the Tanach? I thought Yahweh did not change (Malachi 3:6). Are you saying he began to have grace only after the cross?

Jesus fulfilled the Law by being the only one who could and ever did. No one today has ever kept the law and no one today has ever kept the law as Jesus taught the law. Only be applying the salve that God provided will any man enter the kingdom of God. That salve is Jesus Christ, and it is his righteousness that is imputed to us. No man has kept the Law apart from Jesus Christ.

God has had grace involved in mankinds salvation from before the foundation of the world. Mankind has had many different covenants with God, but only through faith in God has man found His grace. And only by God supplying that faith was man able to submit to God and his authority.

 

[wavy]

Jesus fulfilled the Law by being the only one who could and ever did.

Yahshua was the only one who was sinless, but his fulfillment of the Torah had nothing to do with his perfection vs. our imperfection concerning it. If it does, please show me that with scripture. Also, since he fulfilled it, what does that mean for us?

No one today has ever kept the law and no one today has ever kept the law as Jesus taught the law.

How did he teach it?

 

[Solo]

Jesus fulfilled the Law by being the only one who could and ever did.

Yahshua was the only one who was sinless, but his fulfillment of the Torah had nothing to do with his perfection vs. our imperfection concerning it. If it does, please show me that with scripture. Also, since he fulfilled it, what does that mean for us?

No one today has ever kept the law and no one today has ever kept the law as Jesus taught the law.

How did he teach it?

We are imperfect because we are not able to keep God's righteousness. He who is born of God can. Simple.

Read the gospels and you will see the Spiritual emphasis placed on the Law over the physical emphasis. When you look at a woman with lust you have committed adultery. When you are angry with your brother you have committed murder.

When you don't keep Monday holy, you have broken the sabbath.

 

[wavy]

We are imperfect because we are not able to keep God's righteousness. He who is born of God can. Simple.

Fair enough.

Read the gospels and you will see the Spiritual emphasis placed on the Law over the physical emphasis. When you look at a woman with lust you have committed adultery. When you are angry with your brother you have committed murder.

True, but this doesn't mean you can now commit physical adultery or commit physical murder.

When you don't keep Monday holy, you have broken the sabbath.

You keep the sabbath kadosh/holy by resting on it. "Monday" has nothing to do with this. I've heard quite alot in my debates that "everyday is a sabbath when you believe in Christ" but I do not see scriptural support for that.

 

[Solo]

We are imperfect because we are not able to keep God's righteousness. He who is born of God can. Simple.

Fair enough.

Read the gospels and you will see the Spiritual emphasis placed on the Law over the physical emphasis. When you look at a woman with lust you have committed adultery. When you are angry with your brother you have committed murder.

True, but this doesn't mean you can now commit physical adultery or commit physical murder.

When you don't keep Monday holy, you have broken the sabbath.

You keep the sabbath kadosh/holy by resting on it. "Monday" has nothing to do with this. I've heard quite alot in my debates that "everyday is a sabbath when you believe in Christ" but I do not see scriptural support for that.

When you see that Jesus Christ fulfilled the entire Law, you will understand that reckoning the flesh dead in Christ will allow the born of God influence to run your walk, and it is this walk that must be about doing God's Work everyday, not just one day a week. God made the sabbath day of rest for man, not as an ordinence to defeat man.

 

[wavy]

When you see that Jesus Christ fulfilled the entire Law, you will understand that reckoning the flesh dead in Christ will allow the born of God influence to run your walk...

You keep saying he "fulfilled" it. What does this mean?

...and it is this walk that must be about doing God's Work everyday, not just one day a week. God made the sabbath day of rest for man, not as an ordinence to defeat man.

Exactly. We do his work (a.k.a "good") on the sabbath if we can. It is a luxury (Isaiah 58:13) and it was made for us to be able to cease from working secular work and still reap the benefits of Yahweh taking care of us. This does not give us permission to break it though (unless the Spirit moves you to do some necessary good, not for you to determine). Also, the sabbath being made for man statement by Messiah is used in context to additional burdens upon the people by the Sanhedrin. They put boundries upon many aspects of Torah so you would refrain from breaking the real commandment. He declared that we were not made for it, but it for us (meaning we are free from man's burdens and can keep it as our "delight"). It is ok to save a life, heal, and help others in need although it may be physical labor on the sabbath. That's the only exception. We still must rest on it though.

 

[Solo]

When you see that Jesus Christ fulfilled the entire Law, you will understand that reckoning the flesh dead in Christ will allow the born of God influence to run your walk...

You keep saying he "fulfilled" it. What does this mean?

...and it is this walk that must be about doing God's Work everyday, not just one day a week. God made the sabbath day of rest for man, not as an ordinence to defeat man.

Exactly. We do his work (a.k.a "good") on the sabbath if we can. It is a luxury (Isaiah 58:13) and it was made for us to be able to cease from working secular work and still reap the benefits of Yahweh taking care of us. This does not give us permission to break it though (unless the Spirit moves you to do some necessary good, not for you to determine). Also, the sabbath being made for man statement by Messiah is used in context to additional burdens upon the people by the Sanhedrin. They put boundries upon many aspects of Torah so you would refrain from breaking the real commandment. He declared that we were not made for it, but it for us (meaning we are free from man's burdens and can keep it as our "delight"). It is ok to save a life, heal, and help others in need although it may be physical labor on the sabbath. That's the only exception. We still must rest on it though.

The Law was given to show the Israelites the righteousness of God and their need. Jesus kept the Law thereby fullfilling it, as he was the only one able to. In order to obtain the righteousness of God, Jesus' righteousness must be imputed. No one is able to keep the Law, and if one breaks one, teeny, tiny law, he is guilty of breaking all of them. Since Jesus came to preach HIS righteous Law he imparted to what the whole meaning was. Not committing adultery meant more than the physical committing adultery. It included looking at a woman with lust. Therefore, as Jesus explained the Law, he established that not one jot or tittle would be removed from the law, and that the spiritual aspects of the law was deeper than the physical. Those that look at a woman with lust in their eye towards her is guilty of breaking the law of thou shalt not commit adultery.

Those that are in Christ Jesus and have been born of God are the only ones capable of keeping God's righteousness, as it is Jesus' righteousness that is imputed towards each born of God believer.

You keeping one day a week holy to God is great, but you should keep every day of the week holy to God. And if you keep that day holy to God and are not born of God you are keeping the law needlessly.

 

[wavy]

The Law was given to show the Israelites the righteousness of God and their need. Jesus kept the Law thereby fullfilling it, as he was the only one able to.

You are dancing around my questions and statements. "Able" has nothing to do with his fulfilling (although he did not sin).

No one is able to keep the Law, and if one breaks one, teeny, tiny law, he is guilty of breaking all of them.

This is a lie. Yahweh said it was in the heart to do it (as a lifestyle). Read Deuteronomy 30:10-20. We stumble, but that is why we have Messiah's righteousness imputed. His righteousness does not take away Torah observance for the same reason his refraining from adultery did not take away "you shall not commit adultery".

Since Jesus came to preach HIS righteous Law he imparted to what the whole meaning was.

So you are saying Messiah had some different Torah other than Torah? Where is this, may I ask?

You keeping one day a week holy to God is great, but you should keep every day of the week holy to God.

You ignored what I said. The sabbath day is kept kadosh by resting on it. Yes, you should be kadosh everyday. But not everyday is a set-apart rest day. You can't rest everyday.

 

[Solo]

The Law was given to show the Israelites the righteousness of God and their need. Jesus kept the Law thereby fullfilling it, as he was the only one able to.

You are dancing around my questions and statements. "Able" has nothing to do with his fulfilling (although he did not sin).

I am not dancing around anything, you are not familiar with the band. Jesus fulfilled the Law. He kept the entire Law. He is the only one worthy. He alone fulfilled the Law. Jesus fulfilled the Law and He is righteous because of it. Man's righteousness is as filthy rags, but in Christ Jesus, man can obtain the fulfillment of the Law, and Jesus' righteousness is imputed to him.

No one is able to keep the Law, and if one breaks one, teeny, tiny law, he is guilty of breaking all of them.

This is a lie. Yahweh said it was in the heart to do it (as a lifestyle). Read Deuteronomy 30:10-20. We stumble, but that is why we have Messiah's righteousness imputed. His righteousness does not take away Torah observance for the same reason his refraining from adultery did not take away "you shall not commit adultery".

It is not a lie. Shame on you for calling me a liar, however, let man be a liar and God the truth.

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. James 2:10-11

Deuteronomy 30 refers to the blessings and cursings that the Israelites will suffer if they do not keep the commandments of God after they cross over Jordon. They are to obey many other statutes than just the ten commandments or they will be cursed. This portion of scripture does not relate to the Gentiles who have become grafted into the elect of God through Jesus Christ; and bless God we did not even have to be circumcised!

Paul tells us that God's grace abounds and covers sin to those who are born again. Should we continue in sin? God forbid!

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. Romans 6:15-18

Since Jesus came to preach HIS righteous Law he imparted to what the whole meaning was.

So you are saying Messiah had some different Torah other than Torah? Where is this, may I ask?

Jesus taught explicitly that that which was heard from long ago was now spiritually fulfilled in Christ. Adultery was now more than just laying with another's wife, it was now looking at a woman with lust in one's eye. In the past it was said to love your neighbor as yourself, but now one is to love one's enemy also for it is no great thing to love those who love us. Jesus also taught that in the past it was taught to make a vow, but now let your yea's be yea and your no's be no, but do not sware. In the past it was said that murder was wrong, but now if you hate your brother, you are breaking the thou shalt not kill commandment. Read Matthew 5.

You keeping one day a week holy to God is great, but you should keep every day of the week holy to God.

You ignored what I said. The sabbath day is kept kadosh by resting on it. Yes, you should be kadosh everyday. But not everyday is a set-apart rest day. You can't rest everyday.

I didn't ignor what you said, I disagreed with what you said. The sabbath day was the day of rest given to the Israelites as one of their Laws. It was not given to the Gentiles during the period of grace in Jesus Christ. The sabbath was a day of rest for God as he created the heavens and earth. Do you think God really needed rest? No. Jesus said that the sabbath was created for man, and that man was not created for the sabbath. The creation of the heavens and the earth could have been accomplished in one day, but God determined to give man a template to know the beginning and end of his detemination of his plan. Six thousand years of man working through sin, with the seventh thousand years being the Holy Reign of Jesus Christ, the rest for the elect. Jesus is our rest now, as the sabbath was the rest then.

Now everyday shoud be a day of resting from man's work, and instead man should imitate Jesus by being about the Father's business. Those that are born of God, born again should have the mind of Christ Jesus, and walk in the liberty of his grace by abiding in Him. The Law is now written on each believer's heart, and this Law is not tedious and manmade. It is the yoke of Jesus that he will carry for each of his sheep.

 

[wavy]

I am not dancing around anything, you are not familiar with the band. Jesus fulfilled the Law. He kept the entire Law. He is the only one worthy. He alone fulfilled the Law. Jesus fulfilled the Law and He is righteous because of it. Man's righteousness is as filthy rags, but in Christ Jesus, man can obtain the fulfillment of the Law, and Jesus' righteousness is imputed to him.

Once again, for the "severalth" time, him being perfect had little to do with his fulfillment of Torah. And none of it does away with Torah.

It is not a lie. Shame on you for calling me a liar, however, let man be a liar and God the truth.

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. James 2:10-11

Ok, this scripture proves my point. And it was a lie for the simple fact that you go off the unsupported, scriptural assumption that we cannot keep Torah as a lifestyle because we will somehow fail. Nothing in scripture says that. And it still does not refute my point. It is irrelevant. Torah can and should be kept after you've grown in faith and learned the lifestyle.

Deuteronomy 30 refers to the blessings and cursings that the Israelites will suffer if they do not keep the commandments of God after they cross over Jordon. They are to obey many other statutes than just the ten commandments or they will be cursed. This portion of scripture does not relate to the Gentiles who have become grafted into the elect of God through Jesus Christ; and bless God we did not even have to be circumcised!

Please read Exodus 12:49. You have made a distinction between Jew and Gentile, something the scripture teaches against. We do have to keep Torah, but not because we are pressured immediately by heretic Jews and their "works of law" to be justified or saved at the beginning of faith. And btw, who is the elect, may I ask?

Jesus taught explicitly that that which was heard from long ago was now spiritually fulfilled in Christ. Adultery was now more than just laying with another's wife, it was now looking at a woman with lust in one's eye. In the past it was said to love your neighbor as yourself, but now one is to love one's enemy also for it is no great thing to love those who love us. Jesus also taught that in the past it was taught to make a vow, but now let your yea's be yea and your no's be no, but do not sware. In the past it was said that murder was wrong, but now if you hate your brother, you are breaking the thou shalt not kill commandment. Read Matthew 5.

I have read Matthew 5. He was simply (in additional to hint, mystery and allegorical statements) telling how the Torah should be interpreted to this generation of 1st century Jews. He wasn't adding anything or taking away from anything. He was preaching it as it was supposed to be preached since the day Torah was given. So all what you said is out of context and basically error, imo.

I didn't ignor what you said, I disagreed with what you said. The sabbath day was the day of rest given to the Israelites as one of their Laws. It was not given to the Gentiles during the period of grace in Jesus Christ.

The new covenant was given to the Israelites. You must not be a part of that either. I see that you seem to be also a dispensationalist. A "period of grace" vs. the contrary which you seem to be implying (a "period of law") is not in scripture. There is no difference between anyone in Messiah. All are saved by grace through faith (as it always was), all are judged by one Torah, each man according to his works.

The sabbath was a day of rest for God as he created the heavens and earth. Do you think God really needed rest? No.

Irrelevant point.

Jesus said that the sabbath was created for man, and that man was not created for the sabbath.

This was in reference to fences put on the Torah by the Sanhedrin. He was not preaching against sabbath law when he made this statement. I am a member of several boards, and I daresay that in a period of a couple weeks, this passage has been taken out of context and brought to me by different people at least ten times. The sabbath day is for us. That is why we keep it.

The creation of the heavens and the earth could have been accomplished in one day, but God determined to give man a template to know the beginning and end of his detemination of his plan. Six thousand years of man working through sin, with the seventh thousand years being the Holy Reign of Jesus Christ, the rest for the elect.

"Working through sin"? I don't get what you mean by this, but anyway, the coming rest is shadowed by our weekly sabbath observance.

Jesus is our rest now, as the sabbath was the rest then.

Dispensationalist falsehood (no offense). This is found absolutely NOWHERE in scripture.

Now everyday shoud be a day of resting from man's work, and instead man should imitate Jesus by being about the Father's business. Those that are born of God, born again should have the mind of Christ Jesus, and walk in the liberty of his grace by abiding in Him. The Law is now written on each believer's heart, and this Law is not tedious and manmade. It is the yoke of Jesus that he will carry for each of his sheep.

As far as your first statement in this paragraph, do you mean we should not work as in a job to sustain ourselves and livelihood? Or do you mean focusing on our own selves and instead working for whatever kingdom ministry or task given to us? This was always the case. It was in the past and is now (check Isaiah 58). Torah was never given as "tedious" and it is not "manmade". And do you understand what our "liberty" is? It isn't "liberty" from the big, bad Torah, as most preach. The primary mission of Messiah was NOT to do away with Torah or be against Torah as opposed to grace or faith. This is not in scripture. Torah was always supposed to be in the heart (new covenant passage in Jeremiah 31:33 is usually misinterpreted; ask if you want to). And what do you mean by that last statement? The yoke he carried was our sin and man's additional dogma that put us in bondage (Colossians 2:14; Ephesians 2:15, for examples).

And dealing specifically with your repeated idea of the literal sabbath not being binding because everyday should be kept holy, none of this is supported in scripture.

Yes, we should do the Fathers work everyday of our life and walk kadosh everyday of our life, but this has NOTHING to do with keeping the LITERAL sabbath commandment (which is part of walking kadosh). You are pulling that from the air. It is not one way or the other. Staying holy everday and doing Yahweh's work everyday is not contrasted with keeping the literal sabbath day. False dichotomy.

 

[Solo]

I am not dancing around anything, you are not familiar with the band. Jesus fulfilled the Law. He kept the entire Law. He is the only one worthy. He alone fulfilled the Law. Jesus fulfilled the Law and He is righteous because of it. Man's righteousness is as filthy rags, but in Christ Jesus, man can obtain the fulfillment of the Law, and Jesus' righteousness is imputed to him.

Once again, for the "severalth" time, him being perfect had little to do with his fulfillment of Torah. And none of it does away with Torah.

It is not a lie. Shame on you for calling me a liar, however, let man be a liar and God the truth.

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. James 2:10-11

Ok, this scripture proves my point. And it was a lie for the simple fact that you go off the unsupported, scriptural assumption that we cannot keep Torah as a lifestyle because we will somehow fail. Nothing in scripture says that. And it still does not refute my point. It is irrelevant. Torah can and should be kept after you've grown in faith and learned the lifestyle.

Deuteronomy 30 refers to the blessings and cursings that the Israelites will suffer if they do not keep the commandments of God after they cross over Jordon. They are to obey many other statutes than just the ten commandments or they will be cursed. This portion of scripture does not relate to the Gentiles who have become grafted into the elect of God through Jesus Christ; and bless God we did not even have to be circumcised!

Please read Exodus 12:49. You have made a distinction between Jew and Gentile, something the scripture teaches against. We do have to keep Torah, but not because we are pressured immediately by heretic Jews and their "works of law" to be justified or saved at the beginning of faith. And btw, who is the elect, may I ask?

Jesus taught explicitly that that which was heard from long ago was now spiritually fulfilled in Christ. Adultery was now more than just laying with another's wife, it was now looking at a woman with lust in one's eye. In the past it was said to love your neighbor as yourself, but now one is to love one's enemy also for it is no great thing to love those who love us. Jesus also taught that in the past it was taught to make a vow, but now let your yea's be yea and your no's be no, but do not sware. In the past it was said that murder was wrong, but now if you hate your brother, you are breaking the thou shalt not kill commandment. Read Matthew 5.

I have read Matthew 5. He was simply (in additional to hint, mystery and allegorical statements) telling how the Torah should be interpreted to this generation of 1st century Jews. He wasn't adding anything or taking away from anything. He was preaching it as it was supposed to be preached since the day Torah was given. So all what you said is out of context and basically error, imo.

I didn't ignor what you said, I disagreed with what you said. The sabbath day was the day of rest given to the Israelites as one of their Laws. It was not given to the Gentiles during the period of grace in Jesus Christ.

The new covenant was given to the Israelites. You must not be a part of that either. I see that you seem to be also a dispensationalist. A "period of grace" vs. the contrary which you seem to be implying (a "period of law") is not in scripture. There is no difference between anyone in Messiah. All are saved by grace through faith (as it always was), all are judged by one Torah, each man according to his works.

The sabbath was a day of rest for God as he created the heavens and earth. Do you think God really needed rest? No.

Irrelevant point.

Jesus said that the sabbath was created for man, and that man was not created for the sabbath.

This was in reference to fences put on the Torah by the Sanhedrin. He was not preaching against sabbath law when he made this statement. I am a member of several boards, and I daresay that in a period of a couple weeks, this passage has been taken out of context and brought to me by different people at least ten times. The sabbath day is for us. That is why we keep it.

The creation of the heavens and the earth could have been accomplished in one day, but God determined to give man a template to know the beginning and end of his detemination of his plan. Six thousand years of man working through sin, with the seventh thousand years being the Holy Reign of Jesus Christ, the rest for the elect.

"Working through sin"? I don't get what you mean by this, but anyway, the coming rest is shadowed by our weekly sabbath observance.

Jesus is our rest now, as the sabbath was the rest then.

Dispensationalist falsehood (no offense). This is found absolutely NOWHERE in scripture.

Now everyday shoud be a day of resting from man's work, and instead man should imitate Jesus by being about the Father's business. Those that are born of God, born again should have the mind of Christ Jesus, and walk in the liberty of his grace by abiding in Him. The Law is now written on each believer's heart, and this Law is not tedious and manmade. It is the yoke of Jesus that he will carry for each of his sheep.

As far as your first statement in this paragraph, do you mean we should not work as in a job to sustain ourselves and livelihood? Or do you mean focusing on our own selves and instead working for whatever kingdom ministry or task given to us? This was always the case. It was in the past and is now (check Isaiah 58). Torah was never given as "tedious" and it is not "manmade". And do you understand what our "liberty" is? It isn't "liberty" from the big, bad Torah, as most preach. The primary mission of Messiah was NOT to do away with Torah or be against Torah as opposed to grace or faith. This is not in scripture. Torah was always supposed to be in the heart (new covenant passage in Jeremiah 31:33 is usually misinterpreted; ask if you want to). And what do you mean by that last statement? The yoke he carried was our sin and man's additional dogma that put us in bondage (Colossians 2:14; Ephesians 2:15, for examples).

And dealing specifically with your repeated idea of the literal sabbath not being binding because everyday should be kept holy, none of this is supported in scripture.

Yes, we should do the Fathers work everyday of our life and walk kadosh everyday of our life, but this has NOTHING to do with keeping the LITERAL sabbath commandment (which is part of walking kadosh). You are pulling that from the air. It is not one way or the other. Staying holy everday and doing Yahweh's work everyday is not contrasted with keeping the literal sabbath day. False dichotomy.

Wavy,
Your answers have shown a distance between you and the truth of the Word of God. It is apparant that you have sold out to a belief that is dependent upon your obedience and works, as opposed to the salvation that is dependent upon the grace of God through the work of Jesus Christ.

It is interesting that you failed to comment on Romans 6:15-18. I wonder why?

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. Romans 6:15-18


What you fail to understand is How Jesus fulfilled the Law. He fulfilled the Law by keeping every detail of it. No one else ever has. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God except for Jesus Christ. Since he fulfilled the Law, all those who are born of God and that abide in Him will have eternal life, not everlasting condemnation.

When we live day to day at home or at work or at any place that we are, we should be about the business of God, and not our own carnal works. That is what those that keep one day a week holy unto God do not understand. Those who believe in the ordinances of man in how to keep the Sabbath holy are mistaken since Jesus' finished work on the cross. The Law that Jesus fulfilled is not changed as it is God's righteousness, and it will not change, one jot or tittle; but its hold on man is gone since Jesus took us up on the cross with himself, and buried our sins and flesh with him, giving us resurrection on the day of redemption after filling us with the Holy Spirit when we are born of God.

Jesus' keeping of God's Law has kept believers from condemnation for eternity.

Those that are born of God cannot sin. The flesh is sold under sin, but the mind serves God. Read Romans when you get the chance, without the Nazarene Messianic bias.

Good luck.

 

[wavy]

Wavy,
Your answers have shown a distance between you and the truth of the Word of God.

Excellent job of proving it /sarcastic.

It is apparant that you have sold out to a belief that is dependent upon your obedience and works, as opposed to the salvation that is dependent upon the grace of God through the work of Jesus Christ.

100 times, I daresay, in the past month have I been accused of salvation by works although I have never said that. Get your arguments straight please.

It is interesting that you failed to comment on Romans 6:15-18. I wonder why?

I thought it was irrelevant, but if you want me too, so be it. The scripture actually proves my point.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. Romans 6:15-18

"Under the law" here means to be under its curse and condemned by the sin it points out to you (Romans 7 explains this). But, because we receive grace for past disobedience to Torah, do we sin again? No. Sin, by scriptural definition, is transgressing the Torah (1 John 3:4). Verse 16 here in Romans 6 says that once you call yourself a recipient of grace of the one you serve, you actually have to serve him. You can do it sinfully (transgressing Torah) or do it being faithfully obedient or righteous in conduct. We served sin (being "under the law") but we are delivered from our flesh by Yahshua our Messiah (Romans 7:24-25) and OBEY him in good, well done, Torah works and obedience through the Spirit.

What you fail to understand is How Jesus fulfilled the Law. He fulfilled the Law by keeping every detail of it. No one else ever has. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God except for Jesus Christ. Since he fulfilled the Law, all those who are born of God and that abide in Him will have eternal life, not everlasting condemnation.

What you fail to understand is that I am tired of seeing you repeat that without answering my question of how with scriptural support.

When we live day to day at home or at work or at any place that we are, we should be about the business of God, and not our own carnal works.

Once again, I understand that.

That is what those that keep one day a week holy unto God do not understand.

You don't understand. Keeping the sabbath is not trying to be "holy" one day a week. Keeping the sabbath is part of being holy because we are walking in obedience to the commandment. Why can't you understand this? You keep repeating the same thing. You keep creating that false dichotomy. Being holy everyday is doing his work everyday is NOT ANYTHING NEW. That was always how it was supposed to be. It doesn't make sabbath keepers wrong. They are actually right.

Those who believe in the ordinances of man in how to keep the Sabbath holy are mistaken since Jesus' finished work on the cross.

No scriptural support. Also, the sabbath is not an "ordinance of man".

The Law that Jesus fulfilled is not changed as it is God's righteousness, and it will not change, one jot or tittle; but its hold on man is gone since Jesus took us up on the cross with himself, and buried our sins and flesh with him, giving us resurrection on the day of redemption after filling us with the Holy Spirit when we are born of God.

Lack of scriptural evidence. I've heard all of this before. I don't need commentary.

Jesus' keeping of God's Law has kept believers from condemnation for eternity.

If you believe and walk according to that calling. Doing what Yahweh commands you to do. He fulfilled "you shall not kill". Can we now kill? Can we just "believe" in "Jesus'" fulfilling of the "law" and be saved eternally from condemnation while living a lifestyle of continual sin? You would say, most likely, that those who "truly" believe in Messiah and know him won't kill. For the same reason, I say those who don't understand Torah's guidance in our lives don't know Messiah either. Please read Matthew 7:21-23, giving heed to the word "iniquity" and figuring out what that word really is. That'll be your homework.

Those that are born of God cannot sin.

Wrong. We don't sin as a lifestyle.

The flesh is sold under sin, but the mind serves God.

Yeah, and if something is in your mind, it shows outwardly. You can't just keep the commandment "you shall not kill" in your head. It has to be witnessed by the fact that you haven't killed anyone outwardly.

Read Romans when you get the chance, without the Nazarene Messianic bias.

I've read Romans several times. Only reason I believe what I believe now is because I let go of the "Gentile Christians" bias I used to have for years. Kept hearing the same, unsupported, unscriptural dogma I am hearing from you. Not to insult you, but I personally do not think you've done a very good job of answering my questions or proving your points with scripture.