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laura352
Guest
i would love to hear everyone's opinions on homosexuality and whether the bible says that it is right or wrong. thanx.
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Dunamite
Guest
It is wrong, but it is no worse than any other sin. I don't think that a homosexual can help control his or her feelings on his/her own without help anymore than a drug addict can.
Heterosexual immorality is probably more rampant, but we seen to take comfort in targeting those who are unlike us. It is the old problem of having a plank in our own eye. We hope that by focusing on them that we don't have to deal with our own problems.
If you listen to certain people you would get the wrong idea. You might think that by allowing gays to marry this will open the flood gates and they will change us forever. Historically the percentage of the population which is homosexual has remained pretty much constant. Treating them nice or kindly does not seem to make more of them. Likewise persecuting has not worked either.
It isn't a lifestyle that many people would aspire to. Raising their profile will only make us aware of the problems they face and it may change us into kinder, gentler people in our response to them. This may open up a dialog with them and allow for Jesus to come into their lives. Only then can they begin to deal with the problem.
BTW, I am not gay. I am older happily married man with three well adjusted healthy grown children.
Blessings,
Dunamite
Heterosexual immorality is probably more rampant, but we seen to take comfort in targeting those who are unlike us. It is the old problem of having a plank in our own eye. We hope that by focusing on them that we don't have to deal with our own problems.
If you listen to certain people you would get the wrong idea. You might think that by allowing gays to marry this will open the flood gates and they will change us forever. Historically the percentage of the population which is homosexual has remained pretty much constant. Treating them nice or kindly does not seem to make more of them. Likewise persecuting has not worked either.
It isn't a lifestyle that many people would aspire to. Raising their profile will only make us aware of the problems they face and it may change us into kinder, gentler people in our response to them. This may open up a dialog with them and allow for Jesus to come into their lives. Only then can they begin to deal with the problem.
BTW, I am not gay. I am older happily married man with three well adjusted healthy grown children.
Blessings,
Dunamite
turnorburn
Member
The scriptures tell us how to deal with it in the church..
I Corinthians
Chapter 5
1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
I Corinthians
Chapter 5
1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
L
laura352
Guest
thank you for your posts. to be truthful, i knew that homosexuality is wrong and why and i have learned how to handle it. basically this was sort of a test, probably one of the best ones, for this forum. i was not sure about it so i tested your beliefs to see if they matched up with mine, which they do. and i am not homosexual either. i am a 15 year old girl who, quite frankly, does not date at all because it seems pointless to date during high school.
turnorburn
Member
Sometimes for me its difficult having boldness to come into his presence after seeing what he did for me..
http://s171.photobucket.com/albums/u298 ... 5439d0.flv
http://s171.photobucket.com/albums/u298 ... 5439d0.flv
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geekgirlkelli
Guest
GregBrak said:
Why would you post something you knew would be taken so offensive on this board? Most of the Christians here are some of the most respectful I have come across. Do you think you're funny? Do you think you'll sway their opinion with your idiocy? If you want to troll, save it for a place that actually deserves it, like "theology online." Those people almost make Fred Phelps seem nice.
turnorburn
Member
Hopefully they were
that's pure filth, goes to show everyone the devestating effects of sin.
B
bibleberean
Guest
Obviously practicing perversion with the same sex is wrong.
When God dealt with Israel and set them apart to be Holy in the days of Moses God called the practice an abomination. Which means "disgusting".
Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
It is unnatural according the word of God and our own God given conscience.
Romans 1:26-27 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Homsexual behavior is repugnant and evil. It is a very serious sin and should be treated as such.
But there is hope for those who commit this sin just as there is hope for all sinners.
All of us are sinners and God forgave us for our own vile sins! God will forgive this sin too.
God will wash them clean if they repent and turn to Him.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Welcome the repentant sinner into your life and your church. Help them and love them if they are still struggling with their sin. But if they continue practicing this sin put that person out of your life and out of your church until they do.
1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
Paul was a persecutor of the church of God and was forgiven. He commited horrible sins against God and His people and yet Paul was forgiven! There is hope for anyone who will cast themselves with a broken and contrite heart before our merciful God.
Paul said:
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 1 Timothy 1:15
When God dealt with Israel and set them apart to be Holy in the days of Moses God called the practice an abomination. Which means "disgusting".
Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
It is unnatural according the word of God and our own God given conscience.
Romans 1:26-27 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Homsexual behavior is repugnant and evil. It is a very serious sin and should be treated as such.
But there is hope for those who commit this sin just as there is hope for all sinners.
All of us are sinners and God forgave us for our own vile sins! God will forgive this sin too.
God will wash them clean if they repent and turn to Him.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Welcome the repentant sinner into your life and your church. Help them and love them if they are still struggling with their sin. But if they continue practicing this sin put that person out of your life and out of your church until they do.
1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
Paul was a persecutor of the church of God and was forgiven. He commited horrible sins against God and His people and yet Paul was forgiven! There is hope for anyone who will cast themselves with a broken and contrite heart before our merciful God.
Paul said:
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 1 Timothy 1:15
turnorburn
Member
As this trend continues, into the extreme, we'll be seeing various community's developing.
For some examples, The Blaspheme Rights groups, The Hate Pride Parades, Be Nice to the Sorcerer Society, Sponsor a Satanist Week, and finally Sympathy For The Devil Drive. In the Old Testament God said in Ecclesiastes 9: 1-3
Chapter 9
1 For all this I considered in my heart even to declare all this, that the righteous, and the wise, and their works, are in the hand of God: no man knoweth either love or hatred by all that is before them.
2 All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.
3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
One cure for all, Jesus Christ and him crucified. Would anyone of you care to join me in the Seattle's Gay Pride Parade and preach Christ? The rest of these supposed society's will develop
as evil fills the earth, Satan has prepared the table, he's just waiting for everyone to take their seats.
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GraceBwithU
Guest
Dunamite said:
Shame on you. A sin is a sin that is true...It seems that you have embrased this one. I don't hate Gays, but to embrase it as you have in this comment is dangerous.
Rev 3:16
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
KJV
Rom 1:32
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
KJV
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GraceBwithU
Guest
Rom 1:25-27
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
KJV
Rom 1:32
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
KJV
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
KJV
Rom 1:32
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
KJV
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GraceBwithU
Guest
Wish I could brother, I'm way over here on the east coast.turnorburn said:
:wink:
I
Imagican
Guest
Boy, I was wondering if ANYONE was going to 'step up to the PLATE' and end this charade.
Homosexuality is NOT 'just a sin'. It IS an abomination and THAT is what The Bible STATES.
What a society that we live in which has abandoned even The Word of God for the SAKE of political correctness.
There ARE certainly 'sides' that will FORM over such an issue. Those that choose to 'LAY DOWN' and 'just accept WHATEVER' and those that will CONTINUE to uphold the TRUTH as offered through The Word. That is EXACTLY what is meant by 'fight the GOOD fight'. Continuing in Faith to UPHOLD The Word of God, REGARDLESS of the consequences, (that the TRUTH may 'hurt someone's FEELINGS is IRRELEVANT to The Will of God).
There is CERTAINLY a differentiation of sin offered THROUGH The Word in UNDERSTANDING. Some sins required DIFFERENT sacrifice than others DEPENDING UPON THEIR SEVERITY. Some required the actual dismemberment of the offended. And some REQUIRED DEATH. Now, if common sense ALONE is not able to 'dictate' lesser and MORE severe sin through the Word that was offered, I would suggest that those that DON'T recognize it are basically UN-AFFECTED by The Spirit.
That Christ died for ALL sin does NOT alter the FACT that 'some sin' is CERTAINLY more abhorant than other. Sin IS sin in the eyes of God but some sin is CERTAINLY MORE punishable than others. Otherwise there would BE NO NEED FOR JUDGEMENT. For JUDGEMENT could ONLY be to determine WHAT some have done and HOW MUCH OF IT.
All I can offer beyond this is this: PLEASE Lord, rain your understanding down upon these people that have practically become 'devoid' of ANY other than that offered BY The World. OPEN their EYES so that they are ABLE to SEE.
Amen
MEC
Homosexuality is NOT 'just a sin'. It IS an abomination and THAT is what The Bible STATES.
What a society that we live in which has abandoned even The Word of God for the SAKE of political correctness.
There ARE certainly 'sides' that will FORM over such an issue. Those that choose to 'LAY DOWN' and 'just accept WHATEVER' and those that will CONTINUE to uphold the TRUTH as offered through The Word. That is EXACTLY what is meant by 'fight the GOOD fight'. Continuing in Faith to UPHOLD The Word of God, REGARDLESS of the consequences, (that the TRUTH may 'hurt someone's FEELINGS is IRRELEVANT to The Will of God).
There is CERTAINLY a differentiation of sin offered THROUGH The Word in UNDERSTANDING. Some sins required DIFFERENT sacrifice than others DEPENDING UPON THEIR SEVERITY. Some required the actual dismemberment of the offended. And some REQUIRED DEATH. Now, if common sense ALONE is not able to 'dictate' lesser and MORE severe sin through the Word that was offered, I would suggest that those that DON'T recognize it are basically UN-AFFECTED by The Spirit.
That Christ died for ALL sin does NOT alter the FACT that 'some sin' is CERTAINLY more abhorant than other. Sin IS sin in the eyes of God but some sin is CERTAINLY MORE punishable than others. Otherwise there would BE NO NEED FOR JUDGEMENT. For JUDGEMENT could ONLY be to determine WHAT some have done and HOW MUCH OF IT.
All I can offer beyond this is this: PLEASE Lord, rain your understanding down upon these people that have practically become 'devoid' of ANY other than that offered BY The World. OPEN their EYES so that they are ABLE to SEE.
Amen
MEC
D
Dunamite
Guest
I do not advocate homosexuality, but I do advocate treating all people with respect. We are all sinners and we all deserve respect. To treat them less than we would treat other sinners shows favoritism. In God's eyes all sin is wrong. The only sin which is unforgivable is blaspheming the Holy Spirit.GraceBwithU said:
First off we are only talking about homosexuality in society at large. As previously mentioned, it is not to be tolerated in the church. Morality cannot be legislated for many reasons. Morality in society (not the church) is fluid and constantly changing because society is always changing. The mores of various historical periods are different.
I am unashamed of my tolerance towards others and make no apologies before you or God. God will convict sinners, not me. My job is to present the gospel and to do that I need to be in a position where I can talk to those who need to hear it. That means not pushing homosexuals away. That means respecting them and engaging them to whatever degree I can. Condemnation will only separate us and prevent dialog. Once they have accepted Christ then the Holy Spirit can begin to work within them to deal with all kinds of sin.
When Paul stood before the Athenians in Acts 17 he did not spout off and condemn idolatry. Instead he engaged them and took them as far as they were willing to go and then he knew when to back off. This is a lesson that we need to learn from.
Jesus undoubtedly knew many homosexuals. He hung around with all sorts of sordid people. Assuming that 10% of the populace was gay then as it is now then he would have encountered them, just as he did tax collectors and prostitutes. Yet, in all of his words he does not devote even one to homosexuality. You would think that if he thought that it was important then he would have mentioned it.
Instead Jesus preached about love, compassion, grace and forgiveness. This is what homosexuals need. They need our sympathy and understanding. They need to know that God loves them even now as they are still sinners. They need to know that nobody comes to God perfect and that he does not promise to make us perfect right away. That is a lifetime undertaking and will only be fully realized when we get to Heaven. If God still loves them despite their sin, then we should love them too.
Showing kindness and treating them with respect does not mean that we condone their behavior. It means only that we are living the way that God wants us to.
No sin (save one) is so great that it will keep anyone from accepting Jesus. The voice of condemnation that we hear is not Jesus', but Satan's. He wants us to feel unworthy and wants us to feel that God could not possibly want us as we are. He can quote scripture to prove it.
Paul condemns homosexuality, but he also wrote: "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5: 8)
Yes, embracing sinners is dangerous, but that is what Jesus did and it is what we are called to do. We should welcome the danger and look forward to engaging them instead of pushing them away. If we only stayed with our own kind then the kingdom would never be advanced.
Blessings,
Dunamite
P.S. I've got lots of reason to hate homosexuals. I was molested by a homosexual teacher as a teen and fortunately escaped before much damage was done. I hated homosexuals for most of my life as a result. I thought "gay bashing" was a good idea, even after I became a Christian. Hating them never got me anywhere and it certainly damaged me.
When the issue of gay marriage came up, I was very against it and my comments were hateful and unChristian. The Holy Spirit convicted me as I began to write with venom about the issue and as I prayed and let him into my writing the ideas just spewed out and I was surprised at the results. I could not believe the words of love from God. My thoughts became transformed as a result. God has worked on my heart lots over the following years. He has brought healing and made me whole and I thank and bless him for it. I no longer hate and have forgiven my attacker.
Acceptance of homosexuality is about dealing with reality and not pushing it away or sweeping it under the carpet. It is about responding in a loving, caring manner to people who we would not ordinarily choose to deal with.
turnorburn
Member
I still believe they should
sodomites from marrying. The children that grow up in an environment where Adam is Adam and Eve is Steve
is damning, for you see Satan has a field day here. To see a man with a man or a women with women is going to have a life long effect on them. The sodomites whole agenda here is to make it law that sodomy tongue lashing is a hate crime, they demand acceptance. I heard they have done just that in Canada, making it so if you try to show them the error of there ways from the bible a Christian will face jail time, a 5 year sentence, taking him or her away from there family that has a mommy and a daddy. I too was molested as a 9 year old and it is something I will never forget. I don't hold any grudges against these people, but how are we to lead them to Christ if we're locked up in the poky
:
In His Service,
turnorburn
is damning, for you see Satan has a field day here. To see a man with a man or a women with women is going to have a life long effect on them. The sodomites whole agenda here is to make it law that sodomy tongue lashing is a hate crime, they demand acceptance. I heard they have done just that in Canada, making it so if you try to show them the error of there ways from the bible a Christian will face jail time, a 5 year sentence, taking him or her away from there family that has a mommy and a daddy. I too was molested as a 9 year old and it is something I will never forget. I don't hold any grudges against these people, but how are we to lead them to Christ if we're locked up in the poky
: In His Service,
turnorburn
G
GraceBwithU
Guest
Dunamite said:
I think Paul spoke plainly about homosexuality. He at least took a stand.
Dunamite said:
Odd that you would jump 4 chapters ahead when the subject had totally changed and take something out of context. What does this have to do with homosexuality. If you stay in the same chapter and just a very few verses later he says this:
Rom 1:32
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
KJV
I have no arguement with you about treating them with respect and love, but there is a fine line between compassion for the lost and promoting or accepting the behavior. Jesus spoke boldly to the scribes and Pharasees even called them hipocrites. Turning your back on this behavior and accepting it as just being the way society is, is lukewarm. It seems you have taken a stand that is really no stand at all. Jesus had a very focused purpose while he was here and that was salvation for the lost. Revelations speaks of a completely different attitude of Jesus toward the sinner. I have more than one friend that is gay and I do not treat them with disrespect. You may not agree with this, but there is no such thing as a homosexual Christian. They have accepted it as a lifestyle.
Dunamite said:
As Christians we are supposed to love our neighbor, but not sin. A person does not have to gay bash to take a stand.
I respectfully disagree with you that there is no harm in allowing them to marry. I have personal experiance with this issue. I have lived and/or traveled to southern Florida all of my life. I have been to Key West many times. I have seen the changes there over the years Gay marriage is legal there. The flood gates did open. Key West is mostly Gay now. My cousin just recently moved from the area to Marathon Key because her son was being approched daily. It is a real problem. Many are not just saying please leave us alone, they are seducing the children. It's a fact. It happened ther and it will happen other places. A lot of them are very rich and powerful, (maybe even part of the deal they made). You seem like a very good person, but you are wrong about the gay movement as not being something that Christians should not take a stand against. Not with violense of course. But to sit back and just say oh well, that's life is not what Jesus would do. You gave examples of his love. But Jesus also showed his anger when it was called for.
This is more than a sin it is an attack on society and even nature itself. Love the sinner but hate the sin. The homosexual needs our help. Lukewarm does nothing.
P
paulo75
Guest
I may be starting a fire here, but I don't think that homosexuality is wrong. I don't think gays and lesbians choose to be gay anymore than we choose to be straight. I do think that the Bible is misinterpreted here.
I think that those against homosexuality are blinded by their faith. What I mean by that is that many believe that Paul was writing from his own knowledge and experience. During the the 1st century, even an educated person like Paul would know very little about human sexuality, compared to present-day sexuality researchers.
And, I might sound like I'm reaching for straws (I'm not), but the NIV contains the phrase: "homosexual offenders." Suppose for the moment that Paul had written "heterosexual offenders" or "heterosexual sexual offenders." We would not interpret this today as a general condemnation of heterosexuality; only of those heterosexuals who commit sexual offences. Perhaps the appropriate interpretation of this verse is that it does not condemn homosexuals. Rather it condemns homosexuals who engage in sexual offences.
And it has been known that Paul was prejudice. On that notion alone, there's a high possibility that Paul wasn't speaking for God, but was speaking through his own discriminations.
So, how do gay Christians rationalize their homosexuality? Well, there's nothing that says that you can't be both gay and Christian. Biblically speaking, we have the Old Testament and The New Testament , which is much like an original copy (the OT) and the new copy (The NT). Really, the OT is there to determine the Jews from the Gentiles... two separate groups of people. Now, the bulk of the rules and traditions of the Old Testament are kind of thrown out with the NT, which is meant to bring everyone to God.
In the New Testament, the only person to really say anything about it at all was Paul.
We also have to remember that different words have different meanings in Biblical times... do your homework on the Greek language.
For example, let's take Sodom and Gomorrah. In Genesis 19:4-5, Lot entertains two angels who come to the city to investigate its sins. Before they go to bed, all the men (from every part of the city of Sodom) surround the house and order him to bring out the men so that "we may know them." Historically scholars have always assumed that the Hebrew word for "know" meant that the men of the city wanted to have sex with the visitors.
One of the keys to understanding that passage is the proper translation of the Hebrew word for "know." This word can also mean "to get acquainted with" as well as mean "to have intercourse with."
Now, let's look at Romans 1:26-27. It is clearly about same-sex relationships, right?
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. (Romans 1:26-27, NIV)
But it is also clearly not about all same-sex relationships. How so? Read the verses in context.
1.The people knew God but did not glorify him or honour him, and their heats were darkened.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. (Romans 1:21, NIV)
2. Claiming to be wise they became fools and started worshipping idols made in the image of people and animals.
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.(Romans 1:22-23, NIV)
3. Then God gave them over to sinful sexual desires.
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. (Romans 1:24, NIV)
4. Then the truth about God was replaced with idolatry.
They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creatorâ€â€who is forever praised. Amen. (Romans 1:25, NIV)
5. Then, because of what they had done before, God gave them over to shameful lusts.
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. (Romans 1:26-27, NIV)
6. And finally, their rejection of God was complete, and they became very wicked.
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. (Romans 1:28-32, NIV)
The depravity described in verses 26 and 27 (and verses 28 to 32) is part the process of rejecting God and descending into idol worship and wickedness. One step follows another. It does not describe same-sex relationships.
To say that step 5 describes those in same-sex relationships is taking verses 26 and 27 completely out of context.
And finally, perhaps the most popular verse about homosexuals is 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.
While it seems like a very cut and dry verse, in 1 Corinthians 6, "male prostitutes" is a translation of the Greek word malakoi (singular: malakos), and "homosexual offenders" is a translation of arsenokoiati (singular: arsenokoites), which occurs in one other place in the Bible, 1 Timothy 1:10, where it is translated as "perverts".
If 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 could be translated as "... homosexuals ... will not inherit the Kingdom of God", or anything like that, then this debate would be over. But arsenokoites and malakos can't be translated in that way. We have to conclude that 1 Corinthians 6:1-10 and 1 Timothy 1:9-11 have nothing to say about same-sex relationships.
Now, I mentioned the Greek language. The original Greek text describes the two behaviors as "malakoi" (malakoi; some sources quote "malakee,") and "arsenokoitai (arsenokoitai)." Although these are often translated by modern Bibles as "homosexual," we can be fairly certain that this is not the meaning that Paul wanted to convey. If he had, he would have used the Greek word "paiderasste." That was the standard term at the time for male homosexuals. We can conclude that he probably meant something different from persons who engaged in male-male adult sexual behavior.
"Malakoi" is translated in both Matthew 11:8 and Luke 7:25 as "soft" (KJV) or as "fine" (NIV) in references to clothing. It could also mean "loose" or "pliable," as in the phrase "loose morals," implying "unethical behavior." In the early Christian church, the words were interpreted by some as referring to persons who are pliable, easily influenced, without courage or stability. Non-Biblical writings of the era used the world to refer to lazy men, men who cannot handle hard work, and cowards. [John] Wesley's Bible Notes defines "Malakoi" as those "Who live in an easy, indolent way; taking up no cross, enduring no hardship." One knowledgeable but anonymous reviewer of our web site said that the word translated here as "effeminate" really "means men not working or advancing ideas so as to concern themselves with love only. Not working for the good of the whole....Our present culture has all sorts of connotations associated with the word 'effeminate' that simply don't apply" to Paul's era. It would seem that the word "effeminate" can only be regarded as a mistranslation.
"Arsenokoitai" is made up of two parts: "arsen" means "man"; "koitai" means "beds." The Septuagint (an ancient, pre-Christian translation of the Old Testament into Greek) translated the Hebrew "quadesh" in I Kings 14:24, 15:12 and 22:46 as "arsenokoitai." They were referring to "male temple prostitutes" - people who engaged in ritual sex in Pagan temples. Some leaders in the early Christian church also thought that it meant temple prostitutes. Some authorities believe that it simply means male prostitutes with female customers - a practice which appears to have been a common practice in the Roman empire. One source refers to other writings which contained the word "arsenokoitai:" (Sibylline Oracles 2.70-77, Acts of John; Theophilus of Antioch Ad Autolycum). They suggest that the term refers "to some kind of economic exploitation by means of sex (but no necessarily homosexual sex)." Probably "pimp" or "man living off of the avails of prostitution" would be the closest English translations. It is worth noting that "Much Greek homosexual erotic literature has survived, none of it contains the word aresenokoitai."
And, to my knowledge, Jesus never once talked about gays and lesbians.
Wow. Long post. :D
I think that those against homosexuality are blinded by their faith. What I mean by that is that many believe that Paul was writing from his own knowledge and experience. During the the 1st century, even an educated person like Paul would know very little about human sexuality, compared to present-day sexuality researchers.
And, I might sound like I'm reaching for straws (I'm not), but the NIV contains the phrase: "homosexual offenders." Suppose for the moment that Paul had written "heterosexual offenders" or "heterosexual sexual offenders." We would not interpret this today as a general condemnation of heterosexuality; only of those heterosexuals who commit sexual offences. Perhaps the appropriate interpretation of this verse is that it does not condemn homosexuals. Rather it condemns homosexuals who engage in sexual offences.
And it has been known that Paul was prejudice. On that notion alone, there's a high possibility that Paul wasn't speaking for God, but was speaking through his own discriminations.
So, how do gay Christians rationalize their homosexuality? Well, there's nothing that says that you can't be both gay and Christian. Biblically speaking, we have the Old Testament and The New Testament , which is much like an original copy (the OT) and the new copy (The NT). Really, the OT is there to determine the Jews from the Gentiles... two separate groups of people. Now, the bulk of the rules and traditions of the Old Testament are kind of thrown out with the NT, which is meant to bring everyone to God.
In the New Testament, the only person to really say anything about it at all was Paul.
We also have to remember that different words have different meanings in Biblical times... do your homework on the Greek language.
For example, let's take Sodom and Gomorrah. In Genesis 19:4-5, Lot entertains two angels who come to the city to investigate its sins. Before they go to bed, all the men (from every part of the city of Sodom) surround the house and order him to bring out the men so that "we may know them." Historically scholars have always assumed that the Hebrew word for "know" meant that the men of the city wanted to have sex with the visitors.
One of the keys to understanding that passage is the proper translation of the Hebrew word for "know." This word can also mean "to get acquainted with" as well as mean "to have intercourse with."
Now, let's look at Romans 1:26-27. It is clearly about same-sex relationships, right?
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. (Romans 1:26-27, NIV)
But it is also clearly not about all same-sex relationships. How so? Read the verses in context.
1.The people knew God but did not glorify him or honour him, and their heats were darkened.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. (Romans 1:21, NIV)
2. Claiming to be wise they became fools and started worshipping idols made in the image of people and animals.
Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.(Romans 1:22-23, NIV)
3. Then God gave them over to sinful sexual desires.
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. (Romans 1:24, NIV)
4. Then the truth about God was replaced with idolatry.
They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creatorâ€â€who is forever praised. Amen. (Romans 1:25, NIV)
5. Then, because of what they had done before, God gave them over to shameful lusts.
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. (Romans 1:26-27, NIV)
6. And finally, their rejection of God was complete, and they became very wicked.
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. (Romans 1:28-32, NIV)
The depravity described in verses 26 and 27 (and verses 28 to 32) is part the process of rejecting God and descending into idol worship and wickedness. One step follows another. It does not describe same-sex relationships.
To say that step 5 describes those in same-sex relationships is taking verses 26 and 27 completely out of context.
And finally, perhaps the most popular verse about homosexuals is 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.
While it seems like a very cut and dry verse, in 1 Corinthians 6, "male prostitutes" is a translation of the Greek word malakoi (singular: malakos), and "homosexual offenders" is a translation of arsenokoiati (singular: arsenokoites), which occurs in one other place in the Bible, 1 Timothy 1:10, where it is translated as "perverts".
If 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 could be translated as "... homosexuals ... will not inherit the Kingdom of God", or anything like that, then this debate would be over. But arsenokoites and malakos can't be translated in that way. We have to conclude that 1 Corinthians 6:1-10 and 1 Timothy 1:9-11 have nothing to say about same-sex relationships.
Now, I mentioned the Greek language. The original Greek text describes the two behaviors as "malakoi" (malakoi; some sources quote "malakee,") and "arsenokoitai (arsenokoitai)." Although these are often translated by modern Bibles as "homosexual," we can be fairly certain that this is not the meaning that Paul wanted to convey. If he had, he would have used the Greek word "paiderasste." That was the standard term at the time for male homosexuals. We can conclude that he probably meant something different from persons who engaged in male-male adult sexual behavior.
"Malakoi" is translated in both Matthew 11:8 and Luke 7:25 as "soft" (KJV) or as "fine" (NIV) in references to clothing. It could also mean "loose" or "pliable," as in the phrase "loose morals," implying "unethical behavior." In the early Christian church, the words were interpreted by some as referring to persons who are pliable, easily influenced, without courage or stability. Non-Biblical writings of the era used the world to refer to lazy men, men who cannot handle hard work, and cowards. [John] Wesley's Bible Notes defines "Malakoi" as those "Who live in an easy, indolent way; taking up no cross, enduring no hardship." One knowledgeable but anonymous reviewer of our web site said that the word translated here as "effeminate" really "means men not working or advancing ideas so as to concern themselves with love only. Not working for the good of the whole....Our present culture has all sorts of connotations associated with the word 'effeminate' that simply don't apply" to Paul's era. It would seem that the word "effeminate" can only be regarded as a mistranslation.
"Arsenokoitai" is made up of two parts: "arsen" means "man"; "koitai" means "beds." The Septuagint (an ancient, pre-Christian translation of the Old Testament into Greek) translated the Hebrew "quadesh" in I Kings 14:24, 15:12 and 22:46 as "arsenokoitai." They were referring to "male temple prostitutes" - people who engaged in ritual sex in Pagan temples. Some leaders in the early Christian church also thought that it meant temple prostitutes. Some authorities believe that it simply means male prostitutes with female customers - a practice which appears to have been a common practice in the Roman empire. One source refers to other writings which contained the word "arsenokoitai:" (Sibylline Oracles 2.70-77, Acts of John; Theophilus of Antioch Ad Autolycum). They suggest that the term refers "to some kind of economic exploitation by means of sex (but no necessarily homosexual sex)." Probably "pimp" or "man living off of the avails of prostitution" would be the closest English translations. It is worth noting that "Much Greek homosexual erotic literature has survived, none of it contains the word aresenokoitai."
And, to my knowledge, Jesus never once talked about gays and lesbians.
Wow. Long post. :D
I
Imagican
Guest
Jesus never needed to speak of homosexuality for in the society in which he traveled and taught it was a 'death sentence' and IF there were those practicing such, you be assured they kept it tightly packed into the closet, (no pun intended).
But Paul did speak of it and offered us an interpretation of just how wrong God truly considers it to be.
You have started no fire, but you have certainly offered an insight and understanding into 'your' particular, (if no peculiar), understanding of The Word.
MEC
But Paul did speak of it and offered us an interpretation of just how wrong God truly considers it to be.
You have started no fire, but you have certainly offered an insight and understanding into 'your' particular, (if no peculiar), understanding of The Word.
MEC
Vic C.
Member
- John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. -
When we talk about homosexuality, most of us here make the assumption that the actual act is the subject. What we condemn is giving in to the temptation. We can't read anyones thoughts, but if one comes here promoting such an act as beings acceptable, one will face opposition. Condoning the act is against the site's ToS; please make note of that. Thanks and keep it civil. 8-)